UnCatholic behavior by Prophets in the OT

[Jayda]

hola!

i have encountered a question regarding the Catholic perspective on some of the darker passages of the Old Testament. specifically the genocide, mass enslavement and abuse of women ordered by prophets and judges in the OT (like Joshua, or in Judges).

also commandments ostensibly ordered by God in Deuteronomy and in Leviticus which seem to order or allow the enslavement of conquered non Jewish women.

as we know genocide, enslavement and rape are forbidden by the Holy Church… does anybody know of an orthodox response to this question of the OT? is this God talking? why would He allow this…

muchas gracias
Dominus Vobiscum

 

[NotWorthy]

Why did God order the exterminations (and it was God, not the prophets)? He explains it Himself. He says that if you mix and mingle with these people, they will turn you to idolatry.

What happened when Israel disobeyed God and mixed and mingled? They set up Sacred Poles, they built altars in all the high places, they worshipped other gods.

If these people would have had a chance of worshipping the One God, I think God would have allowed it. You see this in the story of Job where he convinces Ninevah to repent and turn to the Lord.

But those in Canaan had already turned away from God long ago. If you notice most of these came from tribes that had at one time been in the Covenant - Moabites, Amonites, Amalekites, Edomites, termites (just joking on the termites, part. I’m just seeing if you are actually reading my post, there), etc.

 

[Cari]

You might want to check out www.christian-thinktank.com
It’s not a Catholic site, so some of its theology might reflect that, but they have some very good discussions about God-ordered genocide.

Check out this link:
christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html

Run a search on the site for other topics.

Cheers,
C

 

[paarsurrey]

hola!
i have encountered a question regarding the Catholic perspective on some of the darker passages of the Old Testament. specifically the genocide, mass enslavement and abuse of women ordered by prophets and judges in the OT (like Joshua, or in Judges).
also commandments ostensibly ordered by God in Deuteronomy and in Leviticus which seem to order or allow the enslavement of conquered non Jewish women.
as we know genocide, enslavement and rape are forbidden by the Holy Church… does anybody know of an orthodox response to this question of the OT? is this God talking? why would He allow this…
muchas gracias
Dominus Vobiscum

Hi
GodAllahYHWH is just, he could never order for genocide, enslavement or anyother cruel act. These are, in my opinion, the lapses of the the biased and hardened clergy that have entered somehow in the scriptures.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[NotWorthy]

And with that one statement, Paar rejects the Inspiration of all of our Scriptures. I’d add further comments to Paar’s post, but I don’t think he’s responded to a single question of any of his posts. Sorta kinda makes it hard to debate.

 

[Jayda]

gracias…

also what about the sexual abuses like raping and enslaving women and children… surely the Prophets, Kings and Judges who did this did not follow God’s commandment…

what is the explanation for this?

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[paarsurrey]

gracias…
also what about the sexual abuses like raping and enslaving women and children… surely the Prophets, Kings and Judges who did this did not follow God’s commandment…
what is the explanation for this?
Dominus Vobiscum

Hi
The same as I said in my earlier post.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[NotWorthy]

gracias…

also what about the sexual abuses like raping and enslaving women and children… surely the Prophets, Kings and Judges who did this did not follow God’s commandment…

what is the explanation for this?

Dominus Vobiscum

No, and the author of these stories is not judging their actions. He’s just detailing them.

 

[Mirdath]

If these people would have had a chance of worshipping the One God, I think God would have allowed it. You see this in the story of Job where he convinces Ninevah to repent and turn to the Lord.

But those in Canaan had already turned away from God long ago. If you notice most of these came from tribes that had at one time been in the Covenant - Moabites, Amonites, Amalekites, Edomites, termites (just joking on the termites, part. I’m just seeing if you are actually reading my post, there), etc.

That was Jonah And the Assyrians (Nineveh being the capital of their empire) were, if anything, farther removed from worship of the Hebrew God than the Canaanite tribes. So that doesn’t wash.

 

[NotWorthy]

That was Jonah And the Assyrians (Nineveh being the capital of their empire) were, if anything, farther removed from worship of the Hebrew God than the Canaanite tribes. So that doesn’t wash.

Thanks for the gentile (bad pun) reminder about Jonah, not Job.

Yes, but the Assyrians, as far as I know, weren’t even aware of the God of Israel. The Canaanites were, but had turned away.

 

[rwoehmke]

It is an easy thing to sit in our armchairs before the fire reading the Bible and feeling horrified by what God appears to have instructed the Israelites to do. What we forget is the context that suorrounded those happenings. The world has not always been a safe and well policed place to live. It was brutal and unforgiving. (For that matter there are still places where a human life wouldn’t even pay for a cup of coffee.) To survive in such places and times often requires acting quite violently and at odds with what we see as appropriate in our own times and place. Consider even now the manner in which agents of our government are treating those we see as a threat as well as our apparent lack of concern over the collateral damage done to non-combatants in our efforts. Are most of us appalled? Hardly.

 

[Mirdath]

It is an easy thing to sit in our armchairs before the fire reading the Bible and feeling horrified by what God appears to have instructed the Israelites to do. What we forget is the context that suorrounded those happenings. The world has not always been a safe and well policed place to live. It was brutal and unforgiving. (For that matter there are still places where a human life wouldn’t even pay for a cup of coffee.) To survive in such places and times often requires acting quite violently and at odds with what we see as appropriate in our own times and place. Consider even now the manner in which agents of our government are treating those we see as a threat as well as our apparent lack of concern over the collateral damage done to non-combatants in our efforts. Are most of us appalled? Hardly.

So, ah, you’re advocating a morally relativist viewpoint? I find it quite interesting that many Catholics here staunchly oppose what they see as relativism in the present but run to support it when it’d be inconvenient to condemn the actions recorded in the bible.

 

[Genesis315]

The temporal punishments inflicted by God in the OT are figures of the eternal punishments revealed in the NT. Practicing idolotry will kill your own soul and most likely lead your children to the same fate. The faithful were given a horror of idolotry.

Such temporal punishments are no longer inflicted because of Jesus we are now given the opportunity to repent of them and be saved. The eternal punishments remain for those who do not.

 

[Mirdath]

The temporal punishments inflicted by God in the OT are figures of the eternal punishments revealed in the NT. Practicing idolotry will kill your own soul and most likely lead your children to the same fate. The faithful were given a horror of idolotry.

What about those inflicted not by God, but by other people? It is those that are being discussed, not rains of fire and brimstone.

Such temporal punishments are no longer inflicted because of Jesus we are now given the opportunity to repent of them and be saved. The eternal punishments remain for those who do not.

People were able to repent – and often did – in the Old Testament too, it’s nothing new.

 

[Cari]

also what about the sexual abuses like raping and enslaving women and children… surely the Prophets, Kings and Judges who did this did not follow God’s commandment…
what is the explanation for this?

There needs to be a distinction made between what GOD commanded the people to do, and what the PEOPLE choose to do. The horrible behavior on the part of some of the people in the bible (Lot’s daughters having sex with their father, what’s-his-face raping his sister, even King David sending a good man off to his death so David could engage in an affair with the man’s wife…) helps, I think, to illuminate the hand of God in all things.

In other words, if He can still use an immoral, lust-ridden man like David to accomplish such great things, and inspire this same man to genuine repentance, then so much the better for regular folks like us, who probably won’t know David’s glory, but also won’t be guilty of David’s sins. None of us are so far gone that God can’t reach us if we ask him.

The people in the OT, no matter what great deeds God accomplished through them, were capable of horrible sin. It’s important to remember that they still had, and used, their free will.

 

[NotWorthy]

Very true, Cari, but what the OP may be addressing is the fact that God ordered the tribes of Israel to kill every man, woman, and child in Jericho, and then in other cities throughout Canaan.

 

[Cari]

Very true, Cari, but what the OP may be addressing is the fact that God ordered the tribes of Israel to kill every man, woman, and child in Jericho, and then in other cities throughout Canaan.

I know. I addressed that particular directive in my first post. Check out www.christianthinktank.com for an interesting essay on that subject.

My second post was addressing actions prophets, judges, kings, etc. chose on their own accord.