Uncertainty and Human Fallibility

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scameter

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This is something that I am finding hard to answer: due to innate, unavoidable human fallibility, it seems like that we cannot possibly be sure that our beliefs are true or that our knowledge is accurate. Even if we do believe the Church is infallible, how can be know our knowledge of the Church and it’s teachings are accurate, due to our own infallibility? Even if the Catechism is infallible, how do we know we’re not reading it wrong or not understanding it correctly, which can then lead to erronious beliefs and behaviours? And, furthermore, this human fallibility seems to make belief incredibly difficult because we can never be completely certain of anything, so how can we be fully, faithfully committed to a belief we’re not even sure is true or not?
 
scameter said:
This is something that I am finding hard to answer: due to innate, unavoidable human fallibility, it seems like that we cannot possibly be sure that our beliefs are true or that our knowledge is accurate. Even if we do believe the Church is infallible, how can be know our knowledge of the Church and it’s teachings are accurate, due to our own infallibility? Even if the Catechism is infallible, how do we know we’re not reading it wrong or not understanding it correctly, which can then lead to erronious beliefs and behaviours? And, furthermore, this human fallibility seems to make belief incredibly difficult because we can never be completely certain of anything, so how can we be fully, faithfully committed to a belief we’re not even sure is true or not?
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Well, then, if you have doubts about the accuracy of scripture the fallibility of our undestanding and interpretation, etc. why not include all past written and recorded history, written and recorded scientific discoveries, and so on? All we can do is to put our trust and faith in those that have come before us that all that has been recorded is true and accurate. We have no other choice.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
scameter said:
This is something that I am finding hard to answer: due to innate, unavoidable human fallibility, it seems like that we cannot possibly be sure that our beliefs are true or that our knowledge is accurate. Even if we do believe the Church is infallible, how can we know our knowledge of the Church and its teachings are accurate, due to our own infallibility? Even if the Catechism is infallible, how do we know we’re not reading it wrong or not understanding it correctly, which can then lead to erroneous beliefs and behaviour? And, furthermore, this human fallibility seems to make belief incredibly difficult because we can never be completely certain of anything, so how can we be fully, faithfully committed to a belief we’re not even sure is true or not?
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The success of science is not based on certainty but probability. Your beliefs have enabled and will enable you to survive in a highly dangerous world. It is not necessary to be infallible in order to love others and follow the example of Christ. Life is infinitely more than a matter of logic…
 
Don Leon: For one, accepting matters of science or un-religious history as true is alot less important than accepting matters of spiritual truth as true or not. And for two, it is difficult to just accept everything that people have done in the past because people have done different, often conflicting things. For instance, the Buddha said things in the past, as did St. Paul, both of which were humans. So who should you trust? They’re teachings conflict with one another, so you cannot just trust what they say; you must choose. And that’s where difficulty comes in.

Tony Rey: The difference between most of life being based on belief and probability and being able to accept that, and having to accept that faith in God is also like that, is very wide to me. Because quite frankly, nothing is as important as God and truth in life. So, to me, it is incredibly difficult to not know if what I believe is true or not, to have to be in a constant cliffhanger state where I am uncertain and having to grasp to the cliff face as I climb up it to avoid looking down and falling off.
 
scameter said:
Don Leon: For one, accepting matters of science or un-religious history as true is alot less important than accepting matters of spiritual truth as true or not. And for two, it is difficult to just accept everything that people have done in the past because people have done different, often conflicting things. For instance, the Buddha said things in the past, as did St. Paul, both of which were humans. So who should you trust? They’re teachings conflict with one another, so you cannot just trust what they say; you must choose. And that’s where difficulty comes in.

Tony Rey: The difference between most of life being based on belief and probability and being able to accept that, and having to accept that faith in God is also like that, is very wide to me. Because quite frankly, nothing is as important as God and truth in life. So, to me, it is incredibly difficult to not know if what I believe is true or not, to have to be in a constant cliffhanger state where I am uncertain and having to grasp to the cliff face as I climb up it to avoid looking down and falling off.
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Well, I suppose you are addamant to get a answer. All I can say is - what good can you find in not believing? And even if the bible was incorrect, what bad comes from that? The answer is simple; if the bible is right then we are all saved and should live on to spread the word to others so that they too can recieve this great salvation!
But if the bible is wrong and incorrect; then seriously we should just live our daily lives physically and stop believing that there is God our father looking after us. We would just believe that we are here to suffer, breed, get old and then die. e.c.t…
Sound fun?🤷 I think not… If the bibles words are good and have no nasty things to say then surely we should listen to them.
My minister once told me - “You should see the bible as God’s love letter to you. Written thousands of years ago, just for you.”
Also, if there is nothing bad in it then surely we should not ignore it?
What good can come from lies written to people who wouldn’t believe them any way?
 
We must trust in that which we deem to have the most certainty. If we believe God to exist and we believe that Christ was God in flesh than we must trust in what we perceive to be the surest way. So if we are convinced Christ is God and we believe that God created us he would be our surest way to truth and we should trust him as our creator. He claimed he created a church(singular) and he said that hell would not conquer it. Using reason and studying history we can quite assuredly claim we are that church.

Part of the package of earning and working for salvation is that we haven’t foresight.
Faith is a leap as they say but we have the faculties of reason that can beyond a reasonable doubt prove to us there is a God as well as many other teachings of the church.
 
The psychologist William James said that if we doubt, we should act as if we believe, and eventually the beliefs will overcome the doubts. Or words to that effect.
 
scameter said:
Don Leon: For one, accepting matters of science or un-religious history as true is alot less important than accepting matters of spiritual truth as true or not. And for two, it is difficult to just accept everything that people have done in the past because people have done different, often conflicting things. For instance, the Buddha said things in the past, as did St. Paul, both of which were humans. So who should you trust? They’re teachings conflict with one another, so you cannot just trust what they say; you must choose. And that’s where difficulty comes in.

Tony Rey: The difference between most of life being based on belief and probability and being able to accept that, and having to accept that faith in God is also like that, is very wide to me. Because quite frankly, nothing is as important as God and truth in life. So, to me, it is incredibly difficult to not know if what I believe is true or not, to have to be in a constant cliffhanger state where I am uncertain and having to grasp to the cliff face as I climb up it to avoid looking down and falling off.
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Accepting un-religious history and science as true is just as important as accepting all matters of spirituality since it affects your daily life and living. Also St. Paul and the Buddah may have both been humans, but St. Paul was inspired of God, of which there is historical proof in the writings of the historians Josephus and Philo, while the Buddah reached his own conclusions without spiritual inspiration. Therefore I would choose to believe St. Paul.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Honestly, about this particular issue (one of several questions I’ve come to resolve, with the help of other people, over the past few days), I think that life is not as uncertain, nor humans as fallible, as it may seem. I think that Satan the Confuser gives people that idea in order to remove the idea that life can be vague to give us free will, so that God will not unlovingly overwhelm us. Satan doesn’t want us to believe in anything good, including free will; he wants us to think life is random, confusing and harsh, but it’s not; and if it is, at all, it’s not God’s doing or desire, and will be fixed in the end. God made certainty impossible for people so that we’ll have the ability to choose. If anything in life was perfectly, undoubtably certain, it would be overwhelming and we would have no chance of choose to deny it. But everything in life can be doubted, by at least somebody; for instance, some philosophers have even gone so far as to say that existence is merely an illusion. That is their choice to make. But to me, God makes Himself present, in nature and through His prophets, and it is up to the individual to choose to see and believe in those signs, or not.
 
scameter said:
Honestly, about this particular issue (one of several questions I’ve come to resolve, with the help of other people, over the past few days), I think that life is not as uncertain, nor humans as fallible, as it may seem. I think that Satan the Confuser gives people that idea in order to remove the idea that life can be vague to give us free will, so that God will not unlovingly overwhelm us. Satan doesn’t want us to believe in anything good, including free will; he wants us to think life is random, confusing and harsh, but it’s not; and if it is, at all, it’s not God’s doing or desire, and will be fixed in the end. God made certainty impossible for people so that we’ll have the ability to choose. If anything in life was perfectly, undoubtably certain, it would be overwhelming and we would have no chance of choose to deny it. But everything in life can be doubted, by at least somebody; for instance, some philosophers have even gone so far as to say that existence is merely an illusion. That is their choice to make. But to me, God makes Himself present, in nature and through His prophets, and it is up to the individual to choose to see and believe in those signs, or not.
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Thank God you now have a more balanced view of reality. :dancing: You can’t look back now!
 
scameter:

For me it starts with Lazarus. After being a state of putrefaction for days, a god/man raises him from the dead in front of hundreds. Before this he did many miracles. If anyone was ever scrutinized to the nth degree it was Jesus. Every word was studied, and his words were as many noted, different and from authority and truthful.

So we know from this point in time we can definitely say that Jesus was God. So lets advance further. Whatever he says and does must be the truth, right?

In the final days he tells his apostles that he will be with them forever, and that the holy spirit will descend upon them, and in 3 days he will rise. For forty days he returns and proves that he isn’t subject to death.

Now a most important and crucial act is to confer upon Peter the role as head of his Church. He states that nothing will prevail against it, and whatever they bind is bound in heaven.

No problem so far.?

So if conferring continues to this day, and we come from a position beyond trust that we know the truth, then passing credentials is valid and Jesus’s Church is infallible.

I think what you are concerned with his the works of the ministers. The ministers still need to work out their redemption and they are fallible, even the Pope. What is fallible to the Pope is that which is not inspired by the Holy Spirit, so he can have a personal opinion. The Sacraments are spiritual and come from the Holy Spirit, so they are whole and entirely without blemish when they are administered. The ministers only have the credentials to pass them overseen by Jesus.

So you can see there is a progression with no room for error. We cannot consider doubt without calling to question Jesus’ promises and character, and we know that his Truth is absolute.

Andy 🙂
 
I do not believe the Church is infallible as it is made up of human beings who can make mistakes so you may find mistakes in the Catholic Church. We’re also on a pilgrimage or journey to heaven. However, I currently believe it’s closer to the truth although I don’t know a lot about Greek Orthodox. We can find truth in the Catholic Church in two main ways:
  1. Natural revelation: using reason and intellect to decide whether or not the teachings are true. This is natural law and our ability to reason is one way that we are made in the image of God.
  2. Divine revelation and faith. Other people and theologians in the Church may have had divine revelation however we can all have divine revelation and if it’s something that doesn’t make sense to our intellect we can ask for God to reveal the truth to us personally. In order to ask this, it requires faith. For some people this may be a doubting Thomas however, I personally feel I’ve got a duty to make sure I’m on the right path and that I’m not being indoctrinated. I could have been brought up with a different religion, Sikh, Muslim, Jew, Hindu and I could have false beliefs. I can’t just believe what I’ve taught because that’s the religion I was born into without natural revelation and divine revelation.
 
budgie2 said:
I do not believe the Church is infallible as it is made up of human beings who can make mistakes so you may find mistakes in the Catholic Church.
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The Church in it’s being as a source for inspiration, as the source for the complete Fruits of Faith, is the only one sanctioned by God. This is so because God sent his son to found it.

You will remember that Peter denied him 3 times. So you have evidence of fallible ministers from the very start, and you have evidence that Jesus worked with fallible people to start his Church. He didn’t say, “If you are not a sinner, I confer this…”.

Ministers need to work out their redemption also. There’s no free ticket. In fact because of their position, they are even held more accountable.

Andy
 
I just thought of this, scamete; (it should help you)

Christ said; “blessed are you Peter, because it was not flesh and blood that revealed this to you, but my father in heaven.”

Let not the words of men guide you, but our true father. Trust that Christ knew what he was doing when he said to peter that on him he would build his church and that the holy spirit is with it even today.:heaven:
 
The Church is like a big ship making its way across the ocean. God is at the helm steering the ship through the waters. Gods people are like the weather. They can be calm, hot, cold, violent, etc. We as people may stir up a hurricane of problems in the ocean and take the ship and toss it side to side and turn it around, tip it over, and send it completely in the wrong direction. Yet, once we calm down, God calmy checks his compass, turns the ship back on course and guides us right back where we belong.

So sometimes the ship got a bit off course, but it’s destination has always been the same, we have a good captain. 👍
 
06convert said:
The Church is like a big ship making its way across the ocean. God is at the helm steering the ship through the waters. Gods people are like the weather. They can be calm, hot, cold, violent, etc. We as people may stir up a hurricane of problems in the ocean and take the ship and toss it side to side and turn it around, tip it over, and send it completely in the wrong direction. Yet, once we calm down, God calmy checks his compass, turns the ship back on course and guides us right back where we belong.

So sometimes the ship got a bit off course, but it’s destination has always been the same, we have a good captain. 👍
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:heaven::amen:
 
scameter said:
Don Leon: For one, accepting matters of science or un-religious history as true is alot less important than accepting matters of spiritual truth as true or not. And for two, it is difficult to just accept everything that people have done in the past because people have done different, often conflicting things. For instance, the Buddha said things in the past, as did St. Paul, both of which were humans. So who should you trust? They’re teachings conflict with one another, so you cannot just trust what they say; you must choose. And that’s where difficulty comes in.

Tony Rey: The difference between most of life being based on belief and probability and being able to accept that, and having to accept that faith in God is also like that, is very wide to me. Because quite frankly, nothing is as important as God and truth in life. So, to me, it is incredibly difficult to not know if what I believe is true or not, to have to be in a constant cliffhanger state where I am uncertain and having to grasp to the cliff face as I climb up it to avoid looking down and falling off.
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Such Honesty, I love it!!

Do you think there is a problem with admiting you can never know for sure? Would this bother you greatly?

I think the best thing one can do for themselves is to be honest about this(including athiests, which is what I am).

I think people do themsevles a great disservice by believing they know anything for sure. I won’t get into why I feel that way, but your argument is a good one.

If, humans are inherantly failable, then every single thing you’ve been told especially about revelations, history and God could be wrong. That’s a reality that many do not like to deal with, but I think it’s a place of intellectual honesty and humility.

And contrary to another poster, we do actually have a choice. We can question. And quite frankly if there is a “purpose” behind this crazy life, I would suggest we are actually expected to.
 
AndyF said:
The Church in it’s being as a source for inspiration, as the source for the complete Fruits of Faith, is the only one sanctioned by God. This is so because God sent his son to found it.

You will remember that Peter denied him 3 times. So you have evidence of fallible ministers from the very start, and you have evidence that Jesus worked with fallible people to start his Church. He didn’t say, “If you are not a sinner, I confer this…”.

Ministers need to work out their redemption also. There’s no free ticket. In fact because of their position, they are even held more accountable.

Andy
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Anybody can make a claim about a church being sanctioned, a human being the son of God or claims about Gods miracles.

Such claims have been made by many religions. Of course each religion then claims that the other’s religion was not actually inspired by God, but is in fact false(as some-one here made the comment that buddha was not inspired by God, but was a man. One could say the same about Jesus.).

Since humans are failable, such claims that “god” sent his son to found the catholic church could be completely untrue. In fact, I have very little doubt that these claims are completely wrong.

You can believe it, and no-one will stop you, but a book and what a church claims are not necessarily true just because they say they are. And since humans DO make mistake and have an extrodinary capacity to decieve themselves, I’d be extremely wary of anyone claiming “absolute” truths. No matter what I may like to believe.
 
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