Unchanging?

[lumendelumine]

It’s from a project Gutrenburg site.

gutenberg.org/dirs/etext96/hwswt10.txt

But this seems appropriate abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/whitec06.html

The reading shows the the Church infallibly declared that the sun went around the earth, a claim that is not made today.

So in this example at least we seem to have a Church doctrine that has changed.

I would be quite wary in your stead with a book that bears the title History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom… Don’t you think it may have some kind of agenda???

The Church can define theological truth that applies to the created world (like the facts otjm has listed above), but the realm of strict natural science does not lie in her domain. So if Popes give opinions on matters of purely natural science (such as if the Earth is turning around the Sun or the other way round) they certainly do not claim infallibility and it would also be stupid to pretend so.

St. Augustine warns by the way (in De doctrina christiana, I believe) about saying stupid things about the natural sciences, because we may cause the Church harm by doing this. I would say the Church has followed this warning most of the time, though of course not always.

BTW, Galileo himself was far from infallible and claimed hypotheses to be true that weren’t, such as that the Sun is the center of the whole universe. Are you saying that the Church should have accepted all this hook, line and sinker? Then the atheists would be laughing about us because we had “declared infallibly” that the Sun was the center of the universe!

 

[Digger71]

I certainly was aware of the title and the implications. But I actually started reading it and it’s pretty convincing stuff, replete with foot notes and references.

Did you read the link? I get the impression you haven’t, as no points raised in the (rather long) article are even approached by your response.

Some stuff form the article:

What was condemned in 1616 by the Sacred Congregation held in the presence of Pope Paul V, as "absurd, false in theology, and heretical, because absolutely contrary to Holy Scripture, "was the proposition that “the sun is the centre about which the earth revolves”; and what was condemned as “absurd, false in philosophy, and from a theologic point of view, at least, opposed to the true faith,” was the proposition that "the earth is not the centre of the universe and immovable, but has a diurnal motion."

What Galileo was made, by express order of Pope Urban, and by the action of the Inquisition under threat of torture, to abjure in 1633, was "the error and heresy of the movement of the earth."

from Pope Urban downward, among the Church authorities of the seventeenth century the decision was always acknowledged to be made by the Pope and the Church. Urban VIII spoke of that of 1616 as made by Pope Paul V and the Church, and of that of 1633 as made by himself and the Church. Pope Alexander VII in 1664, in his bull Speculatores, solemnly sanctioned the condemnation of all books affirming the earth’s movement.[163b]

The Inquisition itself, backed by the greatest theologian of the time (Bellarmin), took the same view. Not only does he declare that he makes the condemnation “in the name of His Holiness the Pope,” but we have the Roman Index, containing the condemnation for nearly two hundred years, prefaced by a solemn bull of the reigning Pope binding this condemnation on the consciences of the whole Church, and declaring year after year that “all books which affirm the motion of the earth” are damnable. To attempt to face all this, added to the fact that Galileo was required to abjure “the heresy of the movement of the earth” by written order of the Pope, was soon seen to be impossible. Against the assertion that the Pope was not responsible we have all this mass of testimony, and the bull of Alexander VII in 1664.

Galileo has been a prime example for over a century now of Church doctrine changing in the light of new and incontravertible evidence. It has been argued by Catholic apologists that the Galileo affair is widely misunderstood, and it may be. But the article answers those apologists.

I also pointed out a change in the Catechism. So I think at this stage there is evidence of change, so the original posters question is answered.

 

[adrift]

[QUOTEI certainly was aware of the title and the implications. But I actually started reading it and it’s pretty convincing stuff, replete with foot notes and references.
]
Convincing if what is said is true. It is not. He was writing to discredit religion and this skews his objectivity and his truthfulness

Pope Alexander VII in 1664, in his bull Speculatores, solemnly sanctioned the condemnation of all books affirming the earth’s movement.[163b]

It took me awhile to track this down simply because it was not a bull

In the introductory Brief, “Speculatores,” this pope decreed that in the prohibition of books none but the penalties fixed, both in the tenth rule and the bull "

newadvent.org/cathen/03519d.htm

 

[adrift]

I also pointed out a change in the Catechism. So I think at this stage there is evidence of change, so the original posters question is answered.

In 1997 the 1992 Catechism changed from “They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial.” to “This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial”.

You have some factual errors here. The Catechism was written in 1994 and it states

Chastity and homosexuality

2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

All what you said was a straw man The teaching about homosexuals have been consistent as the quoted text prove.

 

[adrift]

Never was it part of doctrine that the earth was the center of the world. There may have been those who felt it was and stated their private opinion that does not constitute doctrine.

The fact is that Pope Urban VIII stated

That the Church had never declared the works of Copernicus to be heretical and would not do so.

Von Pastor, History of the Popes XXIX, 60

The Church never ruled the Copernican theory a heresy, despite the initial wildly imprudent declaration of the theologians’ committee and the Holy Office in 1616 that it was “false and absurd,” which in fact they had no authority to decide

Carroll, Warren H. The Cleaving of Christendom Vol 4 539

No change in faith or morals has occurred.

 

[JustPray14]

In a broader sense, my question is “Has Catholic teaching on morals ever changed?”

I have a friend who states that the Catholic Church could (and should) re-think the Church’s teaching on homosexuality. I told her that was impossible. She said that Catholic teaching has been changed many times and as an example she pointed toward how usury once was a mortal sin and now is not.

She also said that before the late 20th century it was nearly impossible for a Catholic to get an annulment and now the church allows annullments all the time so as not to alienate divorced Catholics and keep them from donating money to the Church.

I’m having trouble combatting her arguments. Can anyone help me out?

#1 you might want to run out and find yourself a book on Apologetics at your local Catholic bookstore (or search on-line), as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Apologetics will help defend the Church’s teachings, when we lack the proper knowledge to do so ourselves!

#2 Isn’t Satan deceiving? He has put lies into so many people’s heads… and sometimes our very own… twisting God’s Truth… trying to put obstacles up between us and God to keep our souls from knowing/receiving God’s Divine Mercy and Love through the Sacrament of Reconciliation and in Body and Blood in the Eucharist. The devil is real. When we look at the fighting (physically and verbally) going on between the people of our nation and the world (on all issues), we should look at this as the devil at work, trying to take our focus away from our God and His will… he is truly out for the ruin of our very souls. And, we should want to fight the GOOD fight… pull out your rosary if you haven’t already been doing so! Let us ask Mary to pray with us/for us, to open all of our hearts to hear The Truth of God’s Word, to trust in her son, and seek to live for Him… TOGETHER as children of God! To lead someone to the Lord is the greatest act of love in my book, because you care about their very soul ending up in eternity! And Jesus was our example and still is! If WE have wronged Him, WE need to repent. Prayer is powerful! The Holy Spirit WILL hear and WILL lead each of us in Truth and guide us to The Truth! And that is no lie!
With that said, my answer is, THE WORD OF GOD CANNOT BE CHANGED. I cannot tell someone who is choosing the sin of homosexual behaviors that their actions are okay, just to make them feel better about themselves. Just as homosexual behavior is a sin, so is having sex outside of marriage, along with greed, jealousy, stealing, lying, gluttony, using God’s name in vain, not going to Mass, gossip, etc… If we are guilty of sin, and are truly sorry for our sin, we must repent (through confession) if we hope to spend eternity with God. So, it is by our own freewill, we distance ourselves from God. Again, God does not do that to us… that’s the work of the evil one and we need to say, “Go away, Satan!”! But, the Good News is God sent His only Son to show us how much He really, truly loves us (through His life, death and resurrection) and He is continually calling us back to Him! And so it is not the Catholic Church that should change, but it us who needs to change. Someone wanting to change God’s Word, doesn’t seem to want to have to take account for their sins, but there will come a time when we all will be judged by our God. Hopefully we will want to spend eternity with our Father and thus trust that no sin of ours is greater than God’s mercy… so let it go in the Sacrament of Reconciliation! The truth is God gives us a conscience, so we KNOW when we have sinned, so that we can return to the Sacrament of Reconciliation (continually until the day we die).
God tells us all about His authority (read Romans Ch.13) and why we should listen to our authorities… hence the succession of popes, can be traced back directly to Jesus Christ Himself. We are also called to obedience. Arguing with one another over what “we” think shows no obedience to our God… we should want to think what God wants us to think, not the empty lies of Satan. “Holy Spirit lead us in (and to) The Truth!” I’ll tell you, the devil is rolling on the ground in laughter at the turmoil he has created in this world and we keep getting sucked into it day after day by tuning into the media and letting the media fill our heads with lies, vs. letting the Holy Spirit fill our heads with Truth!
thereasonforourhope.org/

amm.org/chss.htm

theworkofgod.org/Devotns/DivMercy/Divmercy.htm

May the Holy Spirit guide you (and each of us) in Spirit, Truth and Love!