Unclear on the Catechism's def. on masturbation

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yellow8yellowM said:
In order for something to be a mortal sin there has to be full consent and full knowledge and grave matter. The catechism says that masturbation is always grave matter, but the mitigating circumstances are the full knowledge and full consent. It also lays out mitigating circumstances for prostitution (Paragraph 2355).
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Yes but the people who query their culpability in my opinion are generally those looking for an excuse to justify continuing to sin.

Don’t get hung up on the word “full”.

Full knowledge is satisfied by a person knowing the Church teaches something is a sin of grave matter.
Full consent means going ahead and committing the sin you know the Church teaches is of grave matter.
 
I also struggled with this addiction, and while now looking back I can say that my moral culpability was probably lessened during many circumstances, that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t my responsibility to do everything I could to stop the habit.

I think had I not thought what I was doing was a mortal sin, I wouldn’t have been so desperate to try and stop. But, what would have ended up becoming a mortal sin would have been my lack of trying to stop. I heard one priest say one time that he didn’t think the gravity of the sin happened so much when the temptation was intense and near impossible to control, but the events leading up to the temptation.

The thing that probably would have helped me a lot at the time was when I did give into temptation would have been to recognize my weakness and immediately give it to Christ. Instead, after falling, I would despair and fall into a depression and self-loathing. This, I recognize now is pride. At the same time, it would be just as bad had I thought, “Oh well, it’s not that grave, I have an addiction.” Many of the saints say how even the tiniest sins should be avoided and that every sin is serious sin because it offends Love.

Christ loves us in our weakness, and even more when we give it to Him. He is with us in our pain and struggles, and an addiction to masturbating is a HUGE suffering and cross. He knows this. Don’t be the crucified thief who mocked Jesus. Be the crucified thief who asked Christ to remember him.
 
yellow8yellowM said:
In order for something to be a mortal sin there has to be full consent and full knowledge and grave matter. The catechism says that masturbation is always grave matter, but the mitigating circumstances are the full knowledge and full consent. It also lays out mitigating circumstances for prostitution (Paragraph 2355).
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It’s difficult for me not to sound frusrated here, so please forgive me. Again, this is why this is so confusing and should probably be left out of the “lay-person” realm. That is NOT what the catechism says. If it were that black and white I wouldn’t waste my time trying to find clearity here. The mitigating circumstances are NOT “full knowledge and full consent”. This site should rename itself “catholic opinion forum.” It says it’s a “gravely disordered action”. No question it is sinful and obviously it’s disordered as well, but equivalent to the rape of a child? I seriously doubt it. And the constant quoting of criteria for mortal sin is a bit tiring. I’ve read thread after thread here on this topic and I have to say it amazes me as to the theological arrogance of many of us in here. Even priests seem to have differing opinions on whether this is mortal sin or not. But the consensus with the “lay-theologians” seems to be…it’s mortal sin. It’s rediculous and not helpful to anyone. This is exactly why none of us are Pope. I give up.
 
Luxmundi said:
…That is NOT what the catechism says…The mitigating circumstances are NOT “full knowledge and full consent”.
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This is what the CCC says:
2352 …“Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”
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…To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
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Masturbation is a gravely disordered action and the moral responsibility for it may be reduced by the mentioned items. These items (habit, psychological factors, etc.) may limit the consent.
 
The more I read these masturbation threads, the more I think some people want to continue doing it but are looking for a CCC loophole that will excuse them from the mortal sin.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
The more I read these masturbation threads, the more I think some people want to continue doing it but are looking for a CCC loophole that will excuse them from the mortal sin.
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… or understanding their true & honest culpability in regards to this act. None of us want to knowingly hurt God, or turn our backs on him, or, as one poster said before, “walk up to him and slap him in the face.” That is why I believe that for many posters, it may often not be a true mortal sin. And remember, the vast majority inquire about this act, because they are trying to understand the truth that lies in their hearts in order to find out why they do it and how to stop it.

My advice to them … find a priest that consistently follows Catholic teaching and one you would feel comfortable about talking to. He will, in no doubt get to know you far, far better than any of us, You can come to CAF all you want, and hear the same & different opinions over & over again … and you will only become more confused. And find it easier to give up.

One more thing. We all fall, but only the one’s that truly love God, will always get back-up, go to confession, and continue their fight to overcome, this. By the way, after you defeat it, you will discover another fault of your own, that may or may not be mortal. Such is life for a sinful person (all of us) that dedicates himself to be the best he can be,

Just never ever give up. You can’t lose unless you do,👍 God knows the truth and our love for him, and we simply do not.🤷
 
Lost_Sheep said:
The more I read these masturbation threads, the more I think some people want to continue doing it but are looking for a CCC loophole that will excuse them from the mortal sin.
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Well there must be a reason why you’re viewing “these maturbation threads.” It couldn’t be that you’re struggling with the same sin and same questions could it?
 
Well said Jaguar. This is something I’ve only stuggled with for only a few months. It came out of no where. My confessor says he’s not certain if it’s mortal or venial and to simply follow my conscience with respect to receiving the Eucharist before confession. That’s the only reason I’ve looked for answers. This has kept me from receiving Eucharist during the week which is what I’ve done since becoming catholic two years ago. If I were looking for a loop-hole to continue doing it, I’d simply say my conscience says it’s fine. It’s people like Lost-Sheep that confuse me acting more like a pharisee with rock in hand than a “brother” seeing that we’re all looking for answers. By virtue of looking for answers and not being presumptuous and self-justifying, you’re probably correct in assuming in these cases it would likely be venial sin. If I were looking for a loop-hole in the CCC to continue doing this “mortal sin”, I wouldn’t be depriving myself of frequent Eucharist.
 
Jaguar said:
None of us want to knowingly hurt God, or turn our backs on him, or, as one poster said before, “walk up to him and slap him in the face.” That is why I believe that for many posters, it may often not be a true mortal sin.
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I disagree. If you area Catholic and know that the masturbation is a mortal sin, and you still masturbate, then you have intentionally turned your back on God. There are obviously mitigating circumstances, but only God knows whether the sin is mortal or not. You are playing with fire if you take these things into your own hands. The question is not whether you have intentionally turned your back on God (you definitely have), but whether your turned it so far that you are in mortal sin territory.

The good news is that there are hundreds of millions of people that are in the same boat as you. Better news is that you have the Sacrament of Confession and an endless supply of God’s mercy. Good luck on your fight.
 
yellow8yellowM said:
I disagree. If you area Catholic and know that the masturbation is a mortal sin, and you still masturbate, then you have intentionally turned your back on God. There are obviously mitigating circumstances, but only God knows whether the sin is mortal or not. You are playing with fire if you take these things into your own hands. The question is not whether you have intentionally turned your back on God (you definitely have), but whether your turned it so far that you are in mortal sin territory.

The good news is that there are hundreds of millions of people that are in the same boat as you. Better news is that you have the Sacrament of Confession and an endless supply of God’s mercy. Good luck on your fight.
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Not if there are underlying circumstances, yellow. I already made that clear. We don’t know and many times the folks don’t know why the problem is there. This is absolutely not an excuse, however. One needs to find the root cause and commit to themselves and to God that they will do their best to beat it. Those who have a problem that lessens their culpability, but love God, would not turn on him or slap him. That is ludicrous. I strongly believe those that are here asking for help and even looking for loopholes, still love God.

You assume that I am fighting a problem with this. so should I assume that you have one in this area? Do not judge and assume in regards to people you do not know.

Most of us here, are here for a few different reasons. Too help others, to help ourselves, and to increase our knowledge.
 
Jaguar said:
Not if there are underlying circumstances, yellow. I already made that clear.
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Can you please explain to me, based on my last post, how we differ on the idea of turning your back on God?
Those who have a problem that lessens their culpability, but love God, would not turn on him or slap him. That is ludicrous. I strongly believe those that are here asking for help and even looking for loopholes, still love God.
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In my opinion, direct disobedience of the moral law is slapping God, for sure. Depending on your mitigating circumstances, maybe it is is a weak little tap, but for some people it could be a knockout punch. It seems to me that you are saying that if you are convinced you love God it is impossible for you to turn your back on him, but this happens every day many many times across the world. If I have attended Mass every Sunday 1000 times in a row because I love God, but then skip Mass on the next time because I don’t want to miss the football game, then I have turned my back on God. How is this different with any other sin, mortal or venial?
You assume that I am fighting a problem with this. so should I assume that you have one in this area? Do not judge and assume in regards to people you do not know.
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I assume every human fights this problem to some degree. One can never fully master chastity (ref. CCC). This does not mean that I think you have sinned in this area, but only that you have to fight the temptations, however small they may be in your case, like everybody else.
 
The Church could cut humanity a break and not damn us for masterbation, one doesn’t need to say it is okay and to keep going with it because it doesnt hurt anyone, but also maybe those of us who are fighting this problem to the best of our abilities wouldn’t feel so horrid and ashamed and so troubled with wondering to what degree of sin we are in with this, if the Church just acknowledge that perhaps given that there are things we as humans have been so greatly blessed with , that being hormones… perhaps labeling masterbation as a horrid sin could be left up to God himself to decide when we meet him, and merely just suggest that we do what we can with in our means and to the best of our ability to avoid it when possible,

and not to damn ourselves and feel that we must at all costs run to confession afterwards.

because if the Church wants to remain bent on this issue, then they need to have confession available daily at every church across the nation.

or at least in my area, so i can go to confession daily on this SIN.

I for one am tired of beating myself up about this issue and tired of feeling like some horrid outcast due to my weaknesses or lack of discipline to avoid it.

I do the best I can with in my abilities to avoid masturbation, but i am not going to damn myself and keep confessing it time and again.

It is like trying to tell a bird not to fly because we humans deem it wrong, so there for bird you must now realize how evil and wrong you are because we deem it, and we also declare us to be infalable so any debating us on the issue is futile.

And yes bird we do realize God made you to fly, but sorry, it is a sin.

I for one refuse to lose any more sleep over it, I don’t let pornography run my life, im not some sick pervert if i do view it, and i don’t like the pornography industry either, had my life turned out different from the start, had i not had such horrid relationships, had i not feared having premarital sex because i would be committing another sin, had i not been so dreadfully fearful of stds, maybe then i wouldn’t be turning to pornography.

perhaps for me i wouldn’t be blessed with the gift of being a virgin had i decided to open myself up to a woman instead of fearing the sin that i would have been walking to.

so now i am blessed with a gift, and realize it is a gift to be cherished, and now i have to work on what ever issues i have built up through out my years in regards to women, to not be so fearful of having a relationship with a woman, learning to trust in general, and then now after i get past all my issues in regards to dating, i have to figure out how i will handle breaking news to a woman that i am a virgin and this is why, and have to deal with being called a liar ( which has happened ) oh and now i get to go to a therapist in the event i do wait till i am married to have sex or heck maybe before marrage, i can now spend more hard earned money to figure out how to have a healthy sexual relationship in the confines of what the church deems acceptable.

or i some how get lucky and get blessed with a woman who is understanding and willing to be patient with me and save me the embarressment of having to go to a therapist on this issue, or i could hit the jackpot and find a woman who is also a virgin and we can go through the embarssement and awkwardness of having sex for the first time together as adults.

granted the Church could just stick to being pro life, and leave masturbation and premarital sex between us and God for judgement day,

but that would be too easy.
 
Yellow, I am not sure where the big disagreement lies.

I stand by my statement. These folks are asking / looking for help, even if looking for loopholes. Why … because they fear they can’t stop the behavior, and even more so, because they love God and do not want to believe or be told they are hurting him.

That is why people with this problem need to seek counseling with a priest or lay minister for help … not this forum.
 
The last paragraph is there because the Church is trying very hard not make make a “sin checklist” where all sins have a very clearly delineated, finite definition that never changes and has no consideration for any outside factors. This is not an accurate depiction of sin because sin is much more than simply an action or inaction. Consent of the will, ability to resist, circumstances, etc., all play into culpability of various sins we commit. A blanket rule that says something is always a mortal sin regardless of any outside factors at all is only true in some circumstances, and sins that are addictive or habit forming, such as masturbation, usually don’t fall under such a rule because of the ways that addiction or habits can affect consent of the will. Because each person is at a different stage of holiness, some may be able to resist some sins better than others, making one person more culpable for same action than others are. A pornography addict viewing porn is a different scenario than me viewing the same image. I would be more culpable because I do not have an addiction to it that inhibits my will.

And before someone comes flying in here to correct me with the “ZOMG that’s MORAL RELATIVISM!” line, I would like to point out that I am not saying that we can decide what is moral or immoral based on our opinions. I am also not saying that addiction is itself not sinful, because it is. Sinful actions committed under the influence of addiction or a habit do not carry the same weight as those that are not because they are not as freely chosen.
 
Jaguar said:
Yellow, I am not sure where the big disagreement lies.

I stand by my statement. These folks are asking / looking for help, even if looking for loopholes. Why … because they fear they can’t stop the behavior, and even more so, because they love God and do not want to believe or be told they are hurting him.

That is why people with this problem need to seek counseling with a priest or lay minister for help … not this forum.
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I agree.
 
yellow8yellowM said:
In my opinion, direct disobedience of the moral law is slapping God, for sure. Depending on your mitigating circumstances, maybe it is is a weak little tap, but for some people it could be a knockout punch. It seems to me that you are saying that if you are convinced you love God it is impossible for you to turn your back on him, but this happens every day many many times across the world. If I have attended Mass every Sunday 1000 times in a row because I love God, but then skip Mass on the next time because I don’t want to miss the football game, then I have turned my back on God. How is this different with any other sin, mortal or venial?
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When I was a teenager I often disobeyed my parents and did things they didn’t like. That didn’t mean I stopped loving them. I don’t buy the idea that committing a sin - even a mortal one - is automatically turning your back on God. Why does it have to be an all-or-nothing proposition?
 
Lost_Sheep said:
When I was a teenager I often disobeyed my parents and did things they didn’t like. That didn’t mean I stopped loving them. I don’t buy the idea that committing a sin - even a mortal one - is automatically turning your back on God. Why does it have to be an all-or-nothing proposition?
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My best explanation is that at the moment one decides to commit a grave sin, he has more self-love than love for God.

I would look at it more like a balance scale. You have love for God one side and self-love on the other. It is a mortal sin when the balance finally tips in favor of self-love.
 
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