Unconditional love?

[LilyM]

I don’t recall talking about force or compulsion. But, this unconditional love is only given through grace, and grace is only obtained in baptism. That was my only point.
Sounds like there are conditions here.

You were talking about irresistible grace. Grace can only be irresistible if it is accompanied by some sort of force or compulsion.

And who on earth says God’s love only comes through grace? God created us out of love - inanimate matter and animals as well as man. Those gifts - the gifts of existence and of life - are freely given on His part, expressions of His love. Grace doesn’t enter into it at that point. Grace has to do with supernatural rather than natural existence, and more to do with us loving Him back. But of course He loves us regardless of us loving Him back, just as He loves the animals and all His creation regardless.

And I would suggest that one can probably experience God’s love in a merely natural way without ever entering into the supernatural - all human love is a reflection of it, albeit sometimes distorted.

Futher, who says that grace only comes through baptism? God granted His grace to the prophets well before the time of Jesus when baptism was unheard of, and doubtless has the power to grant His grace even now to those who have never heard of Jesus or baptism.

God’s love and grace are freely given gifts, that can be bestowed regardless of what the recepient does or does not do either to merit them (it’s impossible to merit them anyway). And regardless of whether the recepient puts them to any use. As scripture says, he sends rain to the just and the unjust.

So to summarise - yes you were talking about force or compulsion, which are implicit in the idea of ‘irresistible’ grace. No, God’s love does not come only through grace, and no God’s grace need not come only through baptism.

And no, there are no conditions on God’s love. There ARE conditions on us being in a right relationship with Him on earth and being with Him in heaven (‘house rules’ if you like) - but He loves even those who aren’t in a right relationship with Him and even those who are in Hell.

Just as a parent probably loves their children, even those children who are mean to them and leave home to become junkies and live on the streets.

Thanks for playing, try again.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Let’s recap.

The claims are God’s love is unconditional.
The Jews understood this love to be something entirely different than christians understand this love, as illustrated above.
Looking in scripture there is a single passage addressed to the Jews talking about unconditional love in a way. Since it’s definition at that time was different, I remain confused.
This is supposed to apply to all people via Jesus as explained by Lilly above.
One can “reject” this love theists claim.
Grace helps a person be open to God.
Grace is not given to everyone but we don’t know how many that do not recieve it at baptism do by God’s random decision to grant to whoever he chooses, but we have no assurance he gives this grace to all, otherwise baptism would be redundant.
If you are a good catholic you must believe God’s love is unconditional but reject OSAS.
My confusion is doubled.
Again, it’s rather easy to provoke the wrath of God and go to hell. But, this is a small matter.

 

[Ignatius]

I have been reading a reflection about God loving us with unconditional love. Is this really so?

No, I don’t believe that either Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition tell us that God’s love is unconditional. What both do clearly indicate is that, if we return to Him with all our hearts and repent of our sins, he will absolutely forgive us, no matter how sinfull we have been.

I hope this helps to dispell that false notion you seem to have.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[StrawberryJam]

No, I don’t believe that either Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition tell us that God’s love is unconditional. What both do clearly indicate is that, if we return to Him with all our hearts and repent of our sins, he will absolutely forgive us, no matter how sinfull we have been.

I hope this helps to dispell that false notion you seem to have.

Your servant in Christ.

Well, thank you Ignatius for your post. While I am not a believer, it certainly is the most logical way to see this from a catholic believer’s point of view. Otherwise, this whole thing makes no sense at all.

 

[LilyM]

Let’s recap.

Grace is not given to everyone

Are you saying God’s grace is not made available to everyone who seeks it? Says who?

Electricity is potentially available to everyone, in the US, but not everyone chooses to go the electricity companies, get hooked into the grid and pay their bills.

Nor to adopt any of the alternatives (buy a generator or install solar panels or something). So not everyone has electricity - but that’s not through any doing of the companies, it’s the doing of those who won’t pay their bills or buy a generator or what have you.

If you want to say that there are rules that God imposes - well, the only real rules, if one wants to take a minimalist approach, are to a) be baptised (even water baptism is not always a requirement if it’s impossible but one has the wish to be baptised) and b) be sure to repent of your sins and make a sincere confession before you die! And that too is not a requirement if one has perfect contrition.

My confusion is doubled.

You do appear to be very easily confused.

Again, it’s rather easy to provoke the wrath of God and go to hell. But, this is a small matter.

We don’t claim to KNOW for a fact that it’s easy. Jesus gave some hints, but then He is known to have spoken in hyperbole (exaggerations) at times.

NOT being a minimalist faith, Catholicism prefers to think in terms of doing our best and utmost for God. We prefer, like most people of faith, not to take the attitude of doing the bare minimum necessary to escape hell by the skin of one’s teeth. We know that those who try to do the bare minimum to succeed in anything often fail even at that - so we set the bar a bit higher for ourselves.

And we realise, as anyone with an understanding of human nature, that how one lives day-to-day has a bearing on how one dies, so we want to live so as to put us in the right state to avoid hell at our death.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Thanks for clearing up my confusion Lily. It’s much clearer to me now.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thanks to all who contributed here. The discussion certainly took off, but it did so in various directions.

Are we agreed that grace is a gratuitous gift of God? None of us merits grace. It is freely given by God. It is not simply deciding to turn on a switch like electricity. If one claimed all one had to do is return to Him by our own choice, we say we save ourselves, this sounds like Pelagianism.

In spite of what one hears at present God does not love us with unconditional love.

It is very like the OT covenant, an agreement between God and man. If we, Catholics, do not sin, we remain within God’s love, if we sin we lose his love and are heading towards hell. The love of God to us is very conditional, as it depends on our behavior.

Is this the position?

 

[Cachonga]

NoelFitz.:

Are we agreed that grace is a gratuitous gift of God? None of us merits grace. It is freely given by God. It is not simply deciding to turn on a switch like electricity. If one claimed all one had to do is return to Him by our own choice, we say we save ourselves, this sounds like Pelagianism.

Romans 9:11-16 says, “For when the children were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil (that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand,) Not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said to her: The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy; and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” (DR). Definitely sounds like grace is given freely by God to whomever He wants.
NoelFitz.:

In spite of what one hears at present God does not love us with unconditional love.

Jeremiah 31:3 says, “Jehovah has appeared to me from far away, saying , Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love! On account of this, with loving kindness I have drawn you.” (LT), and, of course, John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (KJV). I don’t see how this doesn’t speak of unconditional love of God toward His chosen people.
NoelFitz.:

It is very like the OT covenant, an agreement between God and man. If we, Catholics, do not sin, we remain within God’s love, if we sin we lose his love and are heading towards hell. The love of God to us is very conditional, as it depends on our behavior.

Not quite true. It’s more like the covenant God made with Abraham. Read Gen 15 for details about this covenant, and pay particular attention to verse 17 (“And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions.” DR). Heb 16:13 says, “For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,” (KJV). In the same way, the New Covenant was made between the Father and the Son, and confirmed by the blood of Jesus. We partake of the promises through faith in Jesus. As far as conditions go, it’s not so much that we HAVE to do something, but that we GET to do something. For example, I don’t have to go to church on Sunday, but because I love God and His people (my brothers and sisters), I can hardly wait to get to church and join with them in praising and hearing about God; I don’t have to study my Bible, but I get to dig into God’s infallible, written Word and see what wisdom God has hidden there for me! Another example of this is King David. God made a promise to him that he would always have someone to sit on his throne (we know today that is Jesus). It was after this that he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah killed. Both of these crimes were punishable by stoning to death, yet God forgave David and kept His promise. Why? Because of His unconditional love for His elect!

 

[Cbailey2]

I have been reading a reflection about God loving us with unconditional love. Is this really so? He knows our most secret thoughts and actions. If we transgress and commit sin we are liable to go to hell for all eternity.

There are several Scripture passages that emphasize this.

Please comment and reassure me that God really is love.

Of course God loves us unconditionally. He has given us free will and respects it: He has allowed us to choose Him or to not choose Him. He does not condemn us to hell, anymore than the father of the prodigal son condemned him to eating with the pigs. We choose hell in our hearts: if we consistently choose sin over God and make no effort to come back to him, we choose to remain with the pigs. But His love in unconditional: He will always love us, and while He cannot force us to return that love, He will always welcome us back when we realize our mistake.

Think of human love: would you forgive your friends, family, or spouse all offenses if they were contrite and asked for it? I’d like to think yes, but I know the reality is no: if my brother murdered my father or my spouse cheated on me, it would be very hard for me to accept their apology, no matter how sincere. But God does. How amazing and unconditional would that love have to be, to accept all sins and all apologies, and then offer the fatted calf and a place with Him?

 

[Cbailey2]

It is very like the OT covenant, an agreement between God and man. If we, Catholics, do not sin, we remain within God’s love, if we sin we lose his love and are heading towards hell. The love of God to us is very conditional, as it depends on our behavior.

Is this the position?

I couldn’t disagree with this more: what father worth his salt would love his kids less when they get bad grades, stain the carpets with finger paint, run with scissors, do drugs, gets arrested, etc.? A good father does not stop loving his children because they sin, but that doesn’t mean that he happily accepts the sin along with the child either.

Honestly, it comes down to free will: God thought it was worth enough to give it to us, knowing that in having the choice between God and sin, Adam and Eve would choose sin. Hell has to exist as a consequence of free will (free will isn’t worth very much if you only have one choice…i’m reminded of the Ford quote on being able to get the model T in any color, as long as it’s black).

 

[NoelFitz]

Cachonga

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I think we are not too far apart in our thinking. You are more nuanced and careful in your post. I should have clarified my views more. This is a difficult topic and deserves precise thinking.

 

[NoelFitz]

Cbailey2
You wrote:

I couldn’t disagree with this more: what father worth his salt would love his kids less when they get bad grades, stain the carpets with finger paint, run with scissors, do drugs, gets arrested, etc.? A good father does not stop loving his children because they sin, but that doesn’t mean that he happily accepts the sin along with the child either.

Honestly, it comes down to free will: God thought it was worth enough to give it to us, knowing that in having the choice between God and sin, Adam and Eve would choose sin. Hell has to exist as a consequence of free will (free will isn’t worth very much if you only have one choice…i’m reminded of the Ford quote on being able to get the model T in any color, as long as it’s black).

You may be right. In this topic I am trying to understand. I have not come to any final conclusion yet.

I gather from your post that you are not concerned that an almighty Father who loves his children, allows some of then to suffer for all eternity, when he could let them share eternity with him in heaven… Do you not find this strange?

 

[NoelFitz]

OBailey2

You also wrote

Of course God loves us unconditionally. He has given us free will and respects it: He has allowed us to choose Him or to not choose Him. He does not condemn us to hell, anymore than the father of the prodigal son condemned him to eating with the pigs. We choose hell in our hearts: if we consistently choose sin over God and make no effort to come back to him, we choose to remain with the pigs. But His love in unconditional: He will always love us, and while He cannot force us to return that love, He will always welcome us back when we realize our mistake.

You imply we need to constantly sin to be damned, I was taught in school that one mortal sin condemns one to hell for all eternity, if it is not forgiven.

You seem to see God as a father who locks up his son in a prison forever and chooses not to let him out, even though he could if he wanted to. In hell can we get out when we realize our mistake? Origen thought so and was condemned as a heretic.

 

[NoelFitz]

LilyM

You wrote:

Are you saying God’s grace is not made available to everyone who seeks it? Says who?

Electricity is potentially available to everyone, in the US, but not everyone chooses to go the electricity companies, get hooked into the grid and pay their bills.

This raises a serious theological issue.

Cachonga quotes Romans:

For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy; and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy.

I think it is accepted Catholic teaching that grace is a gratuitous gift of God. None of us is entitled to God’s grace, which is given as a free unmerited gift.

Would you please clarify this point.

 

[Cbailey2]

OBailey2
You imply we need to constantly sin to be damned, I was taught in school that one mortal sin condemns one to hell for all eternity, if it is not forgiven.

You seem to see God as a father who locks up his son in a prison forever and chooses not to let him out, even though he could if he wanted to. In hell can we get out when we realize our mistake? Origen thought so and was condemned as a heretic.

Sorry for that implication, but my stance on sin is that of the Church. Having a mortal sin on your conscience is to stand in defiance of God. It is as if the prodigal son never returns to the father. He remains in a pig stall. We don’t need to sin constantly to damn ourselves: we need to be in a state of sin when we die.

But I think my larger point was that God the father doesn’t lock up anyone: it is we who do the locking and unlocking. God did not create hell as it is, nor did He create the sin and suffering in the world. He allows them to exist as a consequence of our free will. My point is that the souls that are in hell are there because they have chosen it: and in that way it is a tragic waste. God called them home, has always called them home, and they said “NO!” You may be thinking “who in their right mind would ever choose hell” but the fact is that sin clouds our judgment, making up seem down and down seem up. Drinking more alcohol seems like a very attractive option to an alcoholic.

I didn’t say anything about getting out when we realize our mistake. Hell is permanent. That being said, I do believe in purgatory and a just God. If someone sought heaven in their life, but lived a troubled life, I think they still have a chance. Regardless, it’s all speculation: I’m not God and I can’t tell you how to judge unique souls.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM

You wrote:

This raises a serious theological issue.

Cachonga quotes Romans:

I think it is accepted Catholic teaching that grace is a gratuitous gift of God. None of us is entitled to God’s grace, which is given as a free unmerited gift.

Would you please clarify this point.

I wasn’t talking about entitlement to grace, which I totally agree is a gratuitous gift. Rather I was pointing out that we need to co-operate with God’s grace for it to be active and continuing - just like we need to co-operate with the electricity company to have a continuing supply of electricity once it’s connected.

 

[NoelFitz]

. Having a mortal sin on your conscience is to stand in defiance of God. I

Also having a venial sin on your conscience is to stand in defiance of God.

Previously you wrote:

if we consistently choose sin over God and make no effort to come back to him, we choose to remain with the pigs.

This seemed to imply we were damned if and only if we consistently chose sin.

I had thought God is the creator of all that is. Thus he is the creator of hell.

He did not create sin, because it is the absence of good. However the sinner commits a sin sub specie boni, that is under the appearance of good. It seemed a good idea to me to spend the night with Luscious Lucy, if you know what I mean, I was not thinking of God, but the good time I would have.

You also wrote:

nor did He create the sin and suffering in the world. He allows them to exist as a consequence of our free will.

I find it hard to see how our free will caused the tsunami Katrina in New Orleans in 2005.

You also said that sin clouds our judgment “making up seem down and down seem up.” In this case I do not think there is sin as the act is not committed with clear knowledge and full consent.

You also wrote:

I didn’t say anything about getting out when we realize our mistake.

Sorry I misinterpreted you when you wrote:

He will always welcome us back when we realize our mistake.

Thus I seem to disagree with you.

I prefer to hope in God’s mercy. Maybe I will end up in hell. God is the Lord of the Universe. He is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, being able to do everything, be everywhere and know everything. Humans cannot understand Him.

I will quote more fully Romans:

14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 S**o then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. ** 19 You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use?
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ro 9:14-21.

But I still find it hard to see how it can be claimed God loves us with unconditional love.

 

[NoelFitz]

LilyM
Thank you for your clarification.

However can we cooperate with God’s grace without God’s grace? I find this whole topic difficult, and seem out of my depth. Thus I prefer to stick to Scripture than to venture into theology. But as we are here, it may be worth the effort to try to clarify, if possible, some of God’s mysteries.

Evil, Grace and free will, these are the tough issues.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has

the question (of grace and free will) in its last analysis reduces itself to the relation between free will and efficacious grace (gratia efficax), which contains the very idea that by it and with it the free will does precisely that which this grace desires should be done.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If unconditional love means forcing somebody to ‘share Heaven’ who hates heaven, hates God, hates everyone and everything, and hates his/her existence in that heaven for eternity, would that person really WANT God to give unconditional love as you picture it must be? God is just, isn’t He?

How would you ‘fix’ this scenario? Make the person ‘stay’ in heaven while they scream and suffer for all eternity? If so, your god is unjust because He is ‘altering’ the rules for some that He insisted others follow. Or do a ‘memory wipe’ and just ‘program’ the person so they will make the ‘right’ choice? If so, your god is unjust as well for he let the person ‘err’ in the first place.

Actually, any god who would have to do anything BUT let the individual he gave free will choose–no matter what the choice–would be the one offering ‘conditional’ love.

Our God offers unconditional love . .but His unconditional love does not mean that God must do actions which are contradictory, illogical, unjust or impossible simply because you (or anyone) think those actions equal ‘unconditional love.’

 

[Cbailey2]

Also having a venial sin on your conscience is to stand in defiance of God.

Noted, but my point was more on the loss of saving grace or “spiritual death” not on the consequences of venial sins (which do not break our relationship with God). But you already know the difference between venial and mortal sin: why are you nitpicking my words and ignoring my point? Someone with a mortal sin on their conscience has by definition severed their relationship with God. God hasn’t severed it: they have with their choice. Or, still using the Prodigal son example: they, in their state of sin, are choosing to remain in the slop with the pigs.

This seemed to imply we were damned if and only if we consistently chose sin.

No, I did not imply this: in fact, I previously answered this and stated the opposite: “We don’t need to sin constantly to damn ourselves: we need to be in a state of sin when we die.” Please try to be charitable in you nitpicking.

I had thought God is the creator of all that is. Thus he is the creator of hell.

Yes, God is the creator of all, including the place that would become hell. He created Satan: as an angel. But Satan chose to reign in hell and so became evil. He created man, but man chose to fall. Why is it strange to believe that before Satan, hell wasn’t hell, just as before man fell the earth wasn’t as messed up as it is now. Man is remaking the world in man’s image: why wouldn’t hell be a reflection of Satan’s twisted being?

He did not create sin, because it is the absence of good. However the sinner commits a sin sub specie boni, that is under the appearance of good. It seemed a good idea to me to spend the night with Luscious Lucy, if you know what I mean, I was not thinking of God, but the good time I would have.

I can’t argue with the motivations of a hypothetical man, but I’d say his conscience wasn’t serving him well: (CC1776: “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”)

I find it hard to see how our free will caused the tsunami Katrina in New Orleans in 2005.

No, free will doesn’t cause the weather, but it does cause people to ignore an infrastructure of crumbling levees; it does cause corrupt and prideful politicians to ignore their responsibilities as elected officials to plan and lead; it does cause hundreds of police officers to disappear in cowardice; it does cause thousands of people to ignore dozens of warning and orders to leave the city, despite plenty of buses to ferry them to safety; it does cause looters and murders to run free in the city. If you want to talk to me about why Hurricane Katrina was a total and complete failure of a civilized society to “love one another as I have loved you,” then I’m all ears. If you want to tell me that it was an unavoidable punishment from God, then I’ll tell you flat out: you are wrong.

A better case can be made for the Asian tsunami in December 2005, but if you want to debate that in another discussion board, I’ll go through a number of reasons why human free will and poor choices led to the number of people dying as they did.

You also said that sin clouds our judgment “making up seem down and down seem up.” In this case I do not think there is sin as the act is not committed with clear knowledge and full consent.

See your Luscious Lucy example from above. Seems like a good idea at the time, even when you know it’s not right.

I prefer to hope in God’s mercy. Maybe I will end up in hell. God is the Lord of the Universe. He is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, being able to do everything, be everywhere and know everything. Humans cannot understand Him.

Amen to that. However, divine mystery does not mean that God is completely incomprehensible, only that we can only understand the slivers He has revealed to us.

I whole heartedly put my trust in the mercy and forgiveness of our Lord, for it stems from Love: ““God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 Jn 4:16).”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

God is the purest love possible: so whatever love you hold to be greatest in this world, know that it comes from God, and no servant can be greater than the master.