That’s an excellent article for this thread but it doesn’t quite get at my question. You won’t find the word “unconditional” on the page but “perfect” occurs five times. We might ask the question thus: is perfect love unconditional?The Catholic Encyclopedia has an article on “Love (Theological Virtue)” that discusses this subject.
Thank you. This is getting at the question.Talking about humans, I believe love is almost always conditional. And yes, that it is very normal and natural to be this way. The problem is that in so many movies/novels/songs and so on people talk about “unconditional love” (strangely, just as that love is portrayed to be pretty conditional after all) that to say otherwise would make that person seem selfish/superficial.
The vast majority of people enter relationships (romantic or otherwise) with a set of expectations, needs, desires. Some are discussed with the other person/s, some are implied. For example, we want respect, attention, sincerity, affection, etc. In certain specific situations, we might need to “adjust” them to our circumstances (aka someone accepts that his/her partner works very hard to get that promotion, so for a period of time he/she will not be able to offer the same amount of attention and affection). But this is not the same as unconditional love- more like emotional maturity. If those circumstances chance while his/her behavior doesn’t…well, most people will think this is a very serious problem. We have the normal expectation that if we are offering people attention, respect, understanding, love, etc they will try to respond in the same way.
And yes, in an ideal situation, the relationship between the parents and children will be the closest thing of unconditional love. But in many cases it is not. Here, I think the situation gets more complicated as while many parents might experience almost unconditional love for their children, but will only express it after their children " meet" specific conditions/standards (thinking it is for their own good).
Of course, I have heard that formulation before. Honestly, it makes no sense to me.God does not condemn us because we reject Him/His Love; we condemn ourselves by choosing to reject God and His Love.
Salvation does not translate to unconditional love!
Yes, God may well continue to love them, even as they remove themselves from His presence.If love is unconditional then even beheading, pedophilia, and rape would not disqualify someone. So why not?
Hi, Bubba!If love is unconditional then even beheading, pedophilia, and rape would not disqualify someone. So why not?
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken. (Isaiah 1:18-20)
God will not force sinners to “choose” Him instead of themselves.19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)
Hi, Bubba!Of course, I have heard that formulation before. Honestly, it makes no sense to me.
In fact, there are those who believe in universal salvation because they don’t believe that anyone would knowingly reject God.
It seems to me that the search for “unconditional love” is more a desire to not only embrace the proverbial cake but to ravenously consume it while still having it!14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him, may not perish; but may have life everlasting. 16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. (St. John 3;14-19)
15 If you love me, keep my commandments. (St. John 14:15)
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. (John 15:4-6)
Salvation is universal in that through Jesus death on the Cross all sins have been forgiven, in all time; Salvation is also universal in that all of humanity have access to it, in Jesus.Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. (St. Matthew 7:21)
Maran atha!1 What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? 3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? 4 For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end** that we may serve sin no longer**. 7 For he that is dead is justified from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ: 9 Knowing that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more, death shall no more have dominion over him. 10 For in that he died to sin, he died once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God: 11 So do you also reckon, that you are dead to sin, but alive unto God, in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12** Let no sin therefore reign in your mortal body**, so as to obey the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of iniquity unto sin; but present yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of justice unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you; for you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice. 17 But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, unto that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered. 18 Being then freed from sin, we have been made servants of justice. 19 I speak an human thing, because of the infirmity of your flesh. For as you have yielded your members to serve uncleanness and iniquity, unto iniquity; so now yield your members to serve justice, unto sanctification. 20 For when you were the servants of sin, you were free men to justice. 21 What fruit therefore had you then in those things, of which you are now ashamed? For** the end of them is death**. (Romans 6:1-21)
I think we are using multiple definitions of “unconditional” here, which leads to talking past each other.I hate to sound like a broken record but it doesn’t seem as if anyone is bothering to read the articles I posted that are contrary to their posiiton. (I posted both pro and con articles.)
I do believe that He does, yes. God made even the devil out of love, and continues to love that which He made. It is the devil who refuses God’s love.Here is the short version of what you seem to be saying: God loves those he condemns to eternal suffering in hell. For their own good.
Not interchanging, merely following your lead (or someone else, I can’t remember) to use it as an indication.Hi, Bubba!
…again you are interchanging “unconditional love” with “Salvation.”
God Loves all unconditionally.
God will not force sinners to give up their unrighteousness.
God will allow sinners to “choose” Him vs. condemnation:
God will not force sinners to “choose” Him instead of themselves.
Let us suppose, just for the sake of argument, that someone knowingly chooses themselves instead of God and refuses to give up their unrighteousness. If God’s love were unconditional then it would seem that God would express his love for this unrighteous self-chooser in some way other than eternal damnation. Why not say, “well, you were very bad but I still love you so welcome to heaven.”?God’s Love* is *unconditional. Salvation, Eternity in the Presence of God, is gained through man’s personal “choice,” as is damnation.
Thank you! I would say that unconditional love has also been used for what that author called charitable love.I think we are using multiple definitions of “unconditional” here, which leads to talking past each other.
I read the article you emphasized in response to me, and I don’t think anyone here believes God’s (or anyone’s) love to be unconditional by the definition that author prefers. Most of us are talking about what that article calls “unmerited” love.
I could see the love in causing suffering in another for a higher purpose (e.g. spanking). But we are talking about eternal damnation here.I question, though, whether that definition of “unconditional love,” which you also seem to have adopted, is terribly useful. When people say that either divine or human love is or should be unconditional, they are talking about the love itself continuing despite the actions of the beloved. No one insists that approval or reward is unconditional. The article seems to conflate the three, insisting that if God (or a human parent) sets expectations or punishes wrongdoing, His love is not really unconditional even if He continues to love even those who fail to please Him at all times.
I have a very hard time seeing how eternal damnation can be for the good of the damned.I do believe that He does, yes. God made even the devil out of love, and continues to love that which He made. It is the devil who refuses God’s love.
Here is another way to describe this connection: If God’s love were unconditional then we would have not life and damnation but reincarnation.…again you are interchanging “unconditional love” with “Salvation.”
…
God’s Love* is *unconditional. Salvation, Eternity in the Presence of God, is gained through man’s personal “choice,” as is damnation.
Hi, Bubba!Not interchanging, merely following your lead (or someone else, I can’t remember) to use it as an indication.
Let us suppose, just for the sake of argument, that someone knowingly chooses themselves instead of God and refuses to give up their unrighteousness. If God’s love were unconditional then it would seem that God would express his love for this unrighteous self-chooser in some way other than eternal damnation. Why not say, “well, you were very bad but I still love you so welcome to heaven.”?
(I don’t buy the formulation of God as a passive bystander in this.)
Yet, man is not left alone to became that which God demands of him:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” (1 St. Peter 1:15-16)
Again, God’s Love is unconditional–He will not force man to yield his will to His. Yet, as He is Holy, nothing impure can exist in His Presence, hence the Call for man to be Holy.17 This is what the Lord says—
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
who teaches you what is best for you,
who directs you in the way you should go. (Isaiah 48:17)
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken. (Isaiah 1:18-20)
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live! (Ezekiel 18:32)
46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. 47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (St. John 12:46-48)
…and while some have a confused vision of Hell and what its intentions are, even Hell was not created by God to punish man:12 Seek not death in the error of your life, neither procure ye destruction by the works of your hands. 13 For God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living. (Wisdom 1:12-13)
You are correct, God is not a passive bystander: He Created the universe and has endeavor to Rescue man from damnation since the Fall:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. (St. Matthew 25:41)
Maran atha!1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. 2 For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; 4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5 For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit. 6 For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:1-6)
Hi, Bubba!Here is another way to describe this connection: If God’s love were unconditional then we would have not life and damnation but reincarnation.
If God loved the unrighteous he would give them another chance at finding righteousness in life.
That’s a fair question but it would depend on the difference between life and salvation.Here’s the problem with that scenario… how many reincarnations… one, a million, a trillion…?
What would be the purpose of making any changes since we could just reboot (as with the virtual reality movies/videos); why would anyone even care to strive to do one single unselfish act?
Change comes when we sacrifice self for others for the Love of God–it is the genuine acknowledgment of God’s unconditional Love in our hearts and mind!
Change comes not from the fear of going to Hell but because we want to emulate the Holy One that Calls us to His Unity/Fellowship.
Change comes because we become aware that evil/corruption makes us less than what we were Created and born to be: Holy.
If God would allow a set number of reincarnations before His Judgment and Separation from Him, would those who refuse to Believe not complain that God is not Just because He keeps reminding them that they have only “x” lives left till the final trial? Would that not be torture in itself and wouldn’t we not just waste whatever time we have (infinity +1) being preoccupied in how many “chances” *those other people *got?
If we had eternity to gain eternity, how would that work, would we truly strive for holiness?
Yes, precisely. Though I would hesitate to use the word “forced”. Presumably if God’s love is unconditional then he chooses or simply is accepting of me as I am (gay, straight, or mass murderer.)The premise you present is this: be all I want to be, yet, you God, are forced to accept me as I am because your Love is unconditional.
This would be great… almost as great as pres Obama claiming that Muslims who terrorize and those who support them are misunderstood and all that the world needs do is not think/speak of them as extremists…
The reality is quite different.
While God’s Love is unconditional, He does not places any perquisites on man to receive it, God is righteous (pure: nothing evil/corrupt); He demands that those who accept Him (Him not His unconditional Love) as God and Father became as He is:
Yet, man is not left alone to became that which God demands of him:
Again, God’s Love is unconditional–He will not force man to yield his will to His. Yet, as He is Holy, nothing impure can exist in His Presence, hence the Call for man to be Holy.
The “choice” is ours:
…and while some have a confused vision of Hell and what its intentions are, even Hell was not created by God to punish man:
Well, right, we have supposed unconditional love (or perfect love) set against righteousness (or perfect justice). But then, to, there is God’s perfect mercy. It’s fine that God won’t force man to yield to his will but why should that concern even arise? We do whatever we want and God unconditionally loves us so we are saved. What need have we of justice?You are correct, God is not a passive bystander: He Created the universe and has endeavor to Rescue man from damnation since the Fall:
Hi, Bubba!That’s a fair question but it would depend on the difference between life and salvation.
Life is filled with striving as it is. Even atheists strive. And in the Hindu telling, if you’re bad you get reincarnated as a lower animal (or something like that).
I see your point that there would be less urgency to stive for holiness if we knew we could try again later but then, reducio ad absurdem, any life would be too long if that’s the case.
And what about innocent infants who die? Assuming they are baptized, they go straight to heaven. Where was the choice there?
Hi, Bubba!Yes, precisely. Though I would hesitate to use the word “forced”. Presumably if God’s love is unconditional then he chooses or simply is accepting of me as I am (gay, straight, or mass murderer.)
Well, right, we have supposed unconditional love (or perfect love) set against righteousness (or perfect justice). But then, to, there is God’s perfect mercy. It’s fine that God won’t force man to yield to his will but why should that concern even arise? We do whatever we want and God unconditionally loves us so we are saved. What need have we of justice?
It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words. When we gaze at Jesus hanging from the cross, we know his love was unconditional. “What greater love does a man have than that he lay down his life for his friends.”I seem to have stumbled into a very interesting debate:
Is God’s love unconditional?
Are we called by God to exhibit unconditional love?
I’m not quite sure why I didn’t notice this sooner but it seems to run through very many cultural, poitical, and religious disputes. On the one side you have those who insist not only that God is love but that love is unconditional acceptance. On the other side are those who quite openly say not only that love may be conditional but that it must be.
Along the way many attempts are offered to draw distinctions, e.g. between acceptance and approval or between the sin and the sinner or between hope and expectations.
At the risk of going off on a tangent, I would humbly submit that the claim that Christianity encourage self-improvement is debatable. In fact, there is a whole popular movement that holds the view that Christians are reprehensibel reprobates standing in the way of social progress.Yet, you’ve answer your own question… reincarnation would not lead to self-improvement!
…lower animal… well some people in the US treat their animals better than their own children (for a fact: noticed all the hoopla around the gorilla that was killed when the child entered it’s space? Not as much when “moms” kill their children–no not just the abortive ones!) so I guess some people would not mind being a bird or fish (mostly they have short lives so truly no biggy).
There are two problems with this. First, what then is the point of life if it serves only to corrupt our souls? Babies are good and go straight to heaven. Everyone else embarks on a life-long journey of self-improvement and, if they manage to get it right, end up in the same place as the dead babies.Now, the innocent infants–that’s not quite catch 22… since they are innocent, the Holy Spirit can connect with them in forms that are more productive than that with older children/adults since they are predisposed to God’s Holiness (ever wonder why they smile and giggle so much, as if they are seeing into a different dimension?).
So will you concede that there is a conditionality there? Some people welcomed in God’s Holy Presence and some go to hell (or cease to exist or whatever).God’s Love is unconditional. Because God’s Love is unconditional He does not judge between homosexual and non-homosexual, Mass attendant and murderer; He Loves all as they are. Yet, God’s Divine Mercy is Tempered with His Holiness and His Holiness requires that only that which is Holy (something that we cannot attain by our own means) exist within His Presence.
Through and because of His unconditional Love all sins and conditions are forgiven. Yet, the Call is not to be “the most that you can be;” the Call is to “be Holy.”
It is this which stands between human and Divine.
You choose you, human, you are Loved unconditionally by God till your temporal life ends.
You choose God, you are Loved unconditionally and when your temporal life ends you are welcomed in God’s Holy Presence.