Unconditional Love

[Eric_Hyom]

Would you expect beheaders, pedophiles, and rapists to be in heaven?

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

 

[fhansen]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know Jesus prayed on the cross forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

We also know that the Church understands that salvation is not universal. Mortal sin involves full knowledge and deliberate consent.

"The one who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.”He said to me, “They are accomplished. I [am] the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Rev 21:5-6

**“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God” **Matt 5:18

Grace isn’t only about forgiveness; it’s also about being transformed into God’s image, God loves unconditionally, His forgiveness is lavished freely-any condition on salvation is placed by us.

 

[jcrichton]

At the risk of going off on a tangent, I would humbly submit that the claim that Christianity encourage self-improvement is debatable. In fact, there is a whole popular movement that holds the view that Christians are reprehensibel reprobates standing in the way of social progress.

Hi, Bubba!
…there’s self-improvement and then there’s self-improvement… social/economical enhancement is not a Christian goal (though it is attainable). Spiritual growth is the self-improvement that Christians should be concerned with–though, as the rule is human does as human will :juggle: --not all who ascribe to “Christian” actually do commit themselves (it seems that that’s the problem you’re having).

…I suspect you did not just wake up one day and chose atheism… (or is it “thou dost protest too much?” ) You are correct there are some who call themselves Christians and hold some sort of belief that humans (not just Christians) are base forms that cannot ever remove themselves from their filth (paraphrased). If these are the same people you’re referencing, they are so far in the confused state that you may be their “one eye king.”

Yet, the Call is to Be Holy!

Then, too, there is the usual comparison of Christians and atheists in terms of their individual behavior. Are athesists bad and Christians good on average? That is debatable. I know plenty of Christians, Catholics even, who are not the least bit interested in self-improvement.

Again, Holiness is not self-improvement as dictated by society; failure of both atheists and Christians to live to their full potential (the first, best human they can be; the latter, best Disciple of Christ) does not determine which is the better (“good person”) of the two. As with any society/clan there are “good” people in both arenas… the problem is that atheist can do “good” for no reason while Believers are Called to do “good” as obedience to God. When a Believer fails he/she not only does not reach the mark but actually rejects God by ignoring the Call to Witness; when atheist do “good” (impartial and not geared towards ulterior motives) they gain God’s approval, in spite of their rejection of God.

Summary: both Believers and atheist have the propensity to commit to “good” or to commit to evil. When either commit to evil (even when the atheist does not acknowledge the relationship between God and the Created universe) they become evil.

Finally, we must consider that Catholic teaching is that we should die in a state of grace which can be achieved with a death-bed confession.

There are two problems with this. First, what then is the point of life if it serves only to corrupt our souls? Babies are good and go straight to heaven. Everyone else embarks on a life-long journey of self-improvement and, if they manage to get it right, end up in the same place as the dead babies.

Hollowood has corrupted the Sacraments of Reconciliation (Confession) and Anointing of the Sick–people don’t just get blanket forgiveness for their unrighteous existence when a Priest is called to their death bed or when they got to regular Confession… the mechanism is “persona Christi” which means in the person of Christ… while the Priest physically connects the Catholic Believer with God, it is not the Priest but God who determines the state of the heart/mind/spirit of the person that is Confessing or near death… so while the mechanism presents God’s Mercy on a platinum platter… it is the Confessor’s heart/mind/spirit that will determine God’s Level of Mercy, if any.

Second, where is the choice of the babies? That was supposed to be important for some reason. What choice are they given in connecting to the Holy Spirit? There is no free will there.

Again, you ignore the point. Babies have souls/spirits and in their pure state they are closer to God than any of the Saints–the spirit of such a being cannot but seek God–on the other hand, you and I have had plenty of time to reject God, embrace anything but God, reproduce anything but God, love anything but God, choose anything but God… get the drift; not only would we commit to evil, but we would loath anything that compels us to Be Holy.

The “choice” of righteousness to chose righteousness is “automatic default!”

The “choice” of corrupted beings to chose incorruption is slim but that where God’s Mercy comes in: God’s Love is unconditional allowing even the most corrupted being to seek Him or to remain corrupt!

You cannot fault God for giving you the ultimate “choice.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So will you concede that there is a conditionality there? Some people welcomed in God’s Holy Presence and some go to hell (or cease to exist or whatever).

Now the question becomes: if God loves the sinners why are they not welcomed into God’s presence (i.e. heaven)?

One possibility is that they are somehow better off not in God’s presence.

But let’s suppose that suffering of the damned cannot be reduced by their entry into heaven.

So then why would an unconditinally loving not give them more time to come to their senses? As much time as they needed? Eternity if necessary?

Bubba…
…we are going back to that circular motion (don’t you feel the spin almost swaying your head, just a little–no not that much, that would be a bobblehead ).

There’s no conditionality placed by God’s unconditional Love (you and I have done nothing to merit it, neither has the rest of the world–yeah, including those that died prior to the Incarnation of the Word).

God’s Mercy, His forgiveness and direct access to His Divine Presence… well… that will cost you (and all of humanity).

God’s unconditional Love is not God’s Mercy and Grace (entrance into God’s Presence).

God Loves humans unconditionally (which allows us to seek God and reconcile ourselves to Him or reject God and continue on our own), but God does not tolerate sin–that is, God’s Holiness does not allow for the unholy to exist in His Presence.

Once you or I determine that we are the best that we want to be then God’s unconditional Love allows you or I to exist in that state. Yet, once you or I come to our senses and realize that what is asked of us is to Be Holy, that is become the best that we can be in terms of purity and Love, then God’s unconditional Love, through the mechanism He set in place, will afford us that passage.

Yet, there are people who, by personal choice, refuse to Be Holy. They hold the futile aspiration that God would somehow become that magical giant (the puss in the boots) that foolishly turns himself into a mouse so that the cat can eat him… God is a fool for unconditional Love (He spread out His Arms and asked for your forgiveness as He laid down His Life), but He retains His Divinity and Authority, in spite of the Greatness of His Unconditional Love, He endures the pain of letting you, I, and the rest of the world, reject Him and His Presence and embrace perpetual damnation.

…and yes, though we are better off in God’s Presence… not all of us want to give up our ego/psyche and yield to His Will; stubbornly and obstinately, we demand that God Give up His Holiness and become as our filth to prove His worthiness in our eyes; yeah, even Catholic Christians fall for such empty and unattainable caprice.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

God’s unconditional Love is not God’s Mercy and Grace (entrance into God’s Presence).

God Loves humans unconditionally (which allows us to seek God and reconcile ourselves to Him or reject God and continue on our own), but God does not tolerate sin–that is, God’s Holiness does not allow for the unholy to exist in His Presence.

Would it be fair to say that salvation is conditional? If God does not allow unholiness in His presence then that presence is conditional on holiness.

Would a mother be considered loving if she banished her difficult children from her presence?

…and yes, though we are better off in God’s Presence… not all of us want to give up our ego/psyche and yield to His Will; stubbornly and obstinately, we demand that God Give up His Holiness and become as our filth to prove His worthiness in our eyes; yeah, even Catholic Christians fall for such empty and unattainable caprice.

As we discussed, babies don’t choose to go to heaven, to be holy, etc. They are simply innocent for lack of the opporutnity to be sinful.

…there’s self-improvement and then there’s self-improvement… social/economical enhancement is not a Christian goal (though it is attainable). Spiritual growth is the self-improvement that Christians should be concerned with–though, as the rule is human does as human will :juggle: --not all who ascribe to “Christian” actually do commit themselves (it seems that that’s the problem you’re having).

Again, how does this apply to the death of an infant? Where is that supposed essential commitment?

…I suspect you did not just wake up one day and chose atheism… (or is it “thou dost protest too much?” ) You are correct there are some who call themselves Christians and hold some sort of belief that humans (not just Christians) are base forms that cannot ever remove themselves from their filth (paraphrased). If these are the same people you’re referencing, they are so far in the confused state that you may be their “one eye king.”

Have I led you to think that I am ahtiest? (I am not.)

Summary: both Believers and atheist have the propensity to commit to “good” or to commit to evil. When either commit to evil (even when the atheist does not acknowledge the relationship between God and the Created universe) they become evil.

Babies have souls/spirits and in their pure state they are closer to God than any of the Saints–the spirit of such a being cannot but seek God–on the other hand, you and I have had plenty of time to reject God, embrace anything but God, reproduce anything but God, love anything but God, choose anything but God… get the drift; not only would we commit to evil, but we would loath anything that compels us to Be Holy.

The “choice” of righteousness to chose righteousness is “automatic default!”

The “choice” of corrupted beings to chose incorruption is slim but that where God’s Mercy comes in: God’s Love is unconditional allowing even the most corrupted being to seek Him or to remain corrupt!

You cannot fault God for giving you the ultimate “choice.”

What, then, is the point of life? It seems from your own description that it serves only to corrupt the pure soul, to offer damning choices. What is the value of that choice?

It cannot be that God values free will. As you yourself describe, God values the pure soul of the baby above the disciplined heart of the saint.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

We also know that the Church understands that salvation is not universal. Mortal sin involves full knowledge and deliberate consent.

So why did Jesus go through all that suffering and die for us? It does not make sense that Jesus only died for good Catholics, who only commit minor sins.

If I kill someone and steal their car, God can raise them to eternal life, and what good is a car in heaven? We might spend a hundred years on Earth, it does not make sense that we should spend billions of years in hell for finite crimes.

I have to hope and pray for God’s mercy and forgiveness, as I have not earned a place in heaven.

Grace isn’t only about forgiveness; it’s also about being transformed into God’s image, God loves unconditionally, His forgiveness is lavished freely-any condition on salvation is placed by us.

Amen, but we need help, we are probably our own worst enemy when it comes to salvation.

 

[fhansen]

So why did Jesus go through all that suffering and die for us? It does not make sense that Jesus only died for good Catholics, who only commit minor sins.

If I kill someone and steal their car, God can raise them to eternal life, and what good is a car in heaven? We might spend a hundred years on Earth, it does not make sense that we should spend billions of years in hell for finite crimes.

I have to hope and pray for God’s mercy and forgiveness, as I have not earned a place in heaven.

Amen, but we need help, we are probably our own worst enemy when it comes to salvation.

We definitely need help: grace. But that* is* the promise of the New Covenant: that God, apart from Whom we can do nothing (John 15:5), will do a work in us. And mortal sin isn’t just about individual acts but also about a state or disposition -and a pattern:

**1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.**

Jesus died for all. We’re judged based on what we’ve done with what we’ve been given: knowledge, background, time, experience, revelation, grace. The more we’ve been given, the more will be expected of us, as per Luke 12:48

 

[jcrichton]

Would it be fair to say that salvation is conditional? If God does not allow unholiness in His presence then that presence is conditional on holiness.

Would a mother be considered loving if she banished her difficult children from her presence?

Hi, Bubba!
Correct–salvation is conditional!

I’ve known mothers who not only allow difficult children to go on their merry but they actually have enabled their poor choices in life (drugs, alcohol, abuse, promiscuity, hatred, leaching (financial, emotional, physical), etc.)–permissiveness does not make parenting.

However, you are equating creature to Creator–the first can and most often side on the side of impurity; the latter, is incapable of even being in the same plane of existence with impurity. Yet, of the two, God actually has the greater love because He actually wants His children to strive to Be while the human mother simply rejoices or lives vicariously through her children or uses them for her own gain whenever she allows bad/impure choices to be made and simply goes along with her children (hollowood’s spirituality; ‘don’t judge’).

As we discussed, babies don’t choose to go to heaven, to be holy, etc. They are simply innocent for lack of the opporutnity to be sinful.

Exactly my point! Babies chose to be what they are pure!

Again, how does this apply to the death of an infant? Where is that supposed essential commitment?

Babies are inherently committed; science tells us that, from their mom’s wombs babies begin to associate with their parents… Scriptures tells us that John the Baptist while only about six months old was filled by the Holy Spirit and when Mary’s voice reached him he jumped for joy because Jesus, just a few hours after conception, had come to him!

Prior to John’s conception he was separated by God and he was kept in that level of commitment: pure: connected to God.

Have I led you to think that I am ahtiest? (I am not.)

…actually, I was hinting on your above average knowledge of the Faith… and your description of “pagan” as part of your religion made me think that you were seeking middle grounds between Believer and not (agnostic/atheist)… but from the assertions and consistent (in my view) procurement of licensing (requiring that God allows for all sorts of immoral/impure acts as part of His unconditional Love) I saw it as more of atheist than anything else. Please accept my apologies for my conclusions.

Babies have souls/spirits and in their pure state they are closer to God than any of the Saints–the spirit of such a being cannot but seek God–on the other hand, you and I have had plenty of time to reject God, embrace anything but God, reproduce anything but God, love anything but God, choose anything but God… get the drift; not only would we commit to evil, but we would loath anything that compels us to Be Holy.

What that means is that babies choose God as a default while older children and adults have began a trek which can lead them to the rejection of God. Even the most devote persons in the world could succumb to temptation and thusly reject God by choosing self.

What, then, is the point of life? It seems from your own description that it serves only to corrupt the pure soul, to offer damning choices. What is the value of that choice?

It cannot be that God values free will. As you yourself describe, God values the pure soul of the baby above the disciplined heart of the saint.

…ah, therein lies the problem “choice.” Adan and Eve got a direct Command from God: do not eat… the chose to disobey God and to eat the forbidden fruit… through their failure we gained Original Sin–the inclination to “chose” ourselves through the rejection of God. It is that inclination that matures along with our purity and if fed by people and things in our environment it takes over our being a pits us directly against purity: God. That is why I stated that:

The “choice” of corrupted beings to chose incorruption is slim but that’s where God’s Mercy comes in: God’s Love is unconditional allowing even the most corrupted being to seek Him or to remain corrupt!

You cannot fault God for giving you the ultimate “choice.”

…and God wants us to seek Him:

18 And then come, and accuse me, saith the Lord: if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow: and if they be red as crimson, they shall be white as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

St. James states it this way:

7 Be subject therefore to God, but resist the devil, and he will fly from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners: and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into sorrow. 10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you. (St. James 4:7-10)

You are correct, God does not value “free will;” God values Holiness. But His Love being unconditional, He Loves both the Believer, those who seek the path of Holiness, and the unrighteous, those who have yet to “choose” to be Holy.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So why did Jesus go through all that suffering and die for us? It does not make sense that Jesus only died for good Catholics, who only commit minor sins.

If I kill someone and steal their car, God can raise them to eternal life, and what good is a car in heaven? We might spend a hundred years on Earth, it does not make sense that we should spend billions of years in hell for finite crimes.

I have to hope and pray for God’s mercy and forgiveness, as I have not earned a place in heaven.

Amen, but we need help, we are probably our own worst enemy when it comes to salvation.

Hi, Eric!
…it is not the crime that gets people into Hell–it is the sin (thou shall not: kill/rob/covet…); you’ve just described three big ones and instead of not committing them you wish God would give you a seat next to the person you murdered for a thing that you would have used/abused for a little time… would that actually be as easy if you or a person you love were the victims and I or someone else would get that freebie to Heaven just along side of you/your loved one?

…now, multiply that by a zillion (which would be the number most of us would stop at if we could get away with everything and simple end up in Heaven ‘cause God’s Love is unconditional’.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Correct–salvation is conditional!

Alrght, we agree salvation is conditional but you claim that, nevertheless, God’s love is unconditional and we are attempting to reconcile the two.

I’ve known mothers who not only allow difficult children to go on their merry but they actually have enabled their poor choices in life (drugs, alcohol, abuse, promiscuity, hatred, leaching (financial, emotional, physical), etc.)–permissiveness does not make parenting.

What makes these poor choices, though? What’s wrong with being a promiscuous druggie?

However, you are equating creature to Creator–the first can and most often side on the side of impurity; the latter, is incapable of even being in the same plane of existence with impurity. Yet, of the two, God actually has the greater love because He actually wants His children to strive to Be while the human mother simply rejoices or lives vicariously through her children or uses them for her own gain whenever she allows bad/impure choices to be made and simply goes along with her children (hollowood’s spirituality; ‘don’t judge’).

Or maybe she just loves them unconditionally.

As we discussed, babies don’t choose to go to heaven, to be holy, etc. They are simply innocent for lack of the opporutnity to be sinful.

Exactly my point! Babies chose to be what they are pure!

Sorry, but I’m going to have to call BS on that. Babies don’t make choices in any meaningful sense, they just eat and poop and make cute sounds. In fact, young children in general don’t make morally culpable choices by definition.

Babies are inherently committed; science tells us that, from their mom’s wombs babies begin to associate with their parents… Scriptures tells us that John the Baptist while only about six months old was filled by the Holy Spirit and when Mary’s voice reached him he jumped for joy because Jesus, just a few hours after conception, had come to him!

Babies associate with their caregivers for purely natural and “selfish” reasons. This is instinct, not choice.

…actually, I was hinting on your above average knowledge of the Faith… and your description of “pagan” as part of your religion made me think that you were seeking middle grounds between Believer and not (agnostic/atheist)… but from the assertions and consistent (in my view) procurement of licensing (requiring that God allows for all sorts of immoral/impure acts as part of His unconditional Love) I saw it as more of atheist than anything else. Please accept my apologies for my conclusions.

No apology necessary but I would characterize my views as more agnostic toward the magesterium.

What that means is that babies choose God as a default while older children and adults have began a trek which can lead them to the rejection of God. Even the most devote persons in the world could succumb to temptation and thusly reject God by choosing self.

This makes no sense. As noted above, babies don’t choose God, they don’t even choose their mothers. But also, what is the point of life if only to offer tempting choices away from God?

…ah, therein lies the problem “choice.” Adan and Eve got a direct Command from God: do not eat… the chose to disobey God and to eat the forbidden fruit… through their failure we gained Original Sin–the inclination to “chose” ourselves through the rejection of God. It is that inclination that matures along with our purity and if fed by people and things in our environment it takes over our being a pits us directly against purity: God. That is why I stated that: …and God wants us to seek Him:

You are correct, God does not value “free will;” God values Holiness. But His Love being unconditional, He Loves both the Believer, those who seek the path of Holiness, and the unrighteous, those who have yet to “choose” to be Holy.

If God does not value free will then why offer a choice at all? Why would God want us to choose to seek Him? Why not create all men holy like Mary or else make them go to heaven against their will where you admit even sinners would be happier than hell?

 

[jcrichton]

Alrght, we agree salvation is conditional but you claim that, nevertheless, God’s love is unconditional and we are attempting to reconcile the two.

What makes these poor choices, though? What’s wrong with being a promiscuous druggie?

Or maybe she just loves them unconditionally.

Sorry, but I’m going to have to call BS on that. Babies don’t make choices in any meaningful sense, they just eat and poop and make cute sounds. In fact, young children in general don’t make morally culpable choices by definition.

Babies associate with their caregivers for purely natural and “selfish” reasons. This is instinct, not choice.

No apology necessary but I would characterize my views as more agnostic toward the magesterium.

This makes no sense. As noted above, babies don’t choose God, they don’t even choose their mothers. But also, what is the point of life if only to offer tempting choices away from God?

If God does not value free will then why offer a choice at all? Why would God want us to choose to seek Him? Why not create all men holy like Mary or else make them go to heaven against their will where you admit even sinners would be happier than hell?

Hi, Bubba!
…the wheels are spinning but we are getting nowhere fast… so before we run into a burnout I will excuse myself.

May God Bless you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

…the wheels are spinning but we are getting nowhere fast… so before we run into a burnout I will excuse myself.

I appreciate the spirited discussion. Pax vobiscum.