unconvert?

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LilyM said:
Of course we can choose to co-operate more or less fully, or not at all, with that grace. Being a gift it is something we can put to good use, not so good use or not use at all. And God can perhaps give more to those who He knows will use it well (‘he who has, to him will more be given’)
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This I might not agree with 😦
 
LilyM said:
Of course we can choose to co-operate more or less fully, or not at all, with that grace. Being a gift it is something we can put to good use, not so good use or not use at all. And God can perhaps give more to those who He knows will use it well (‘he who has, to him will more be given’)
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Re-reading this I am confused by what Catholics think grace is?

Do Catholics think grace is like a fuel? Actually in a certain way fuel is not a bad example…
 
whisperer42 said:
This I might not agree with 😦
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What part? That we can reject grace? Of course we can - that is what sin is.

That God gives more to some than others? Then why does Paul say that some people are essentially not capable of remaining celibate, and so should marry? But that for those who can they should stay celibate? After all, they could also just as easily marry. See,

Paul clearly deems the gift of celibacy superior, but that God does not give everyone that better gift.
 
LilyM said:
That God gives more to some than others? Then why does Paul say that some people are essentially not capable of remaining celibate, and so should marry? But that for those who can they should stay celibate? After all, they could also just as easily marry. See,

Paul clearly deems the gift of celibacy superior, but that God does not give everyone that better gift.
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I think we might be using grace in different terms. :confused:

If you view celibacy as a spiritual gift, that doesn’t mean having more spiritual gifts equals having more grace.

Is this what the RCC teaches?
 
whisperer42 said:
Where you a practicing Christian during those 35 years? If so I would be interested asking some questions about your return to Catholicism (I am presuming you were a revert)
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Feel free to PM me with them if you wish so we don’t derail the thread.
 
whisperer42 said:
But where sin increased, grace increased all the more
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Well, so God also gives more when more is needed (eg where sin is greater). My point was really just that it isn’t doled out equally to everyone. Point proven.
 
whisperer42 said:
I think we might be using grace in different terms. :confused:

If you view celibacy as a spiritual gift, that doesn’t mean having more spiritual gifts equals having more grace.

Is this what the RCC teaches?
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Well, if celibacy is the greater calling, then does it not follow that you need greater divine ‘help’ (aka grace, if you like) to successfully STAY celibate? Just like if being a preacher or minister is a greater calling, that you need more grace to succeed at it than to merely he a successful pew-sitter who isn’t called to do anything more?
 
whisperer42 said:
So how do Catholics view grace?
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It might be helpful to read the section in the Catechism on grace and see if you have any specific questions.

Grace

Maybe start with section 1996 on grace and then look at justification and merit.
 
TrueLight said:
It might be helpful to read the section in the Catechism on grace and see if you have any specific questions.

Grace

Maybe start with section 1996 on grace and then look at justification and merit.
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TBH after 1998 I have a hard time understanding what is being said. It sounds like vcr instructions.
 
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This does not sound like unmerited grace…
 
whisperer42 said:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This does not sound like unmerited grace…
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Read the sections again, like you would the VCR instructions 🙂 in essence -

Para 2007 - WE do not merit anything in ourselves.

Para 2009 - the merit attached to our works is the result of God’s gratuitous justice … and His love of us as His adopted children. Not any deserving on our part.

A bit like a parent attaches value to a child’s artwork not because the art is in itself any good, nor the child in themselves talented, but because it is produced by that parent’s child and the parent’s love of them gives it value in their eyes.The child doesn’t earn or create the value, the parent attaches it.
 
LilyM said:
Read the sections again, like you would the VCR instructions 🙂 in essence -

Para 2007 - WE do not merit anything in ourselves.

Para 2009 - the merit attached to our works is the result of God’s gratuitous justice … and His love of us as His adopted children. Not any deserving on our part. The child doesn’t earn or create the value, the parent attaches it.
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but after conversion a person can merit grace? 2010
 
It sounds like Catholics believe God starts then man finishes.
Grace + merit
 
whisperer42 said:
but after conversion a person can merit grace? 2010
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AFTER I adopt a child I value all it’s artworks for love of it, even the most ordinary, because the child also loves me and it makes them to please me. Before? Well, before, I might not even know the child and it certainly might not know me nor do anything for my sake!
 
LilyM said:
AFTER I adopt a child I value all it’s artworks for love of it, even the most ordinary, because the child also loves me and it makes them to please me. Before? Well, before, I might not even know the child and it certainly might not know me nor do anything for my sake!
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How is that not merit?
 
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