unconvert?

[LilyM]

How is that not merit?

Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a ‘well done’ from any teacher who appreciated art for art’s own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child’s doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.

 

[TrueLight]

Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a ‘well done’ from any teacher who appreciated art for art’s own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child’s doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.

Ooh Lily. I love this analogy!

 

[LilyM]

Ooh Lily. I love this analogy!

Thanks. I have seven nieces and nephews, so get a lot of offerings from budding young artists

 

[ConstantineTG]

I feel kinda weird asking this but as someone who converted to Catholicism only a couple of years ago. Is it possible to unconvert?
I stopped attending catholic church after my first year, and would kind like to erase what happened… I know not really possible.

Outside of the baptism certificate is there anything else that would show I was a member? If I asked could I have the original baptism certificate?

Like I said it was for a very short time and I consider it a mistake.

Thank you.

Why so concerned about it? If you left the Church, why worry about your records? Does it change anything you have right now?

 

[whisperer42]

Because in and of itself what the child has produced is worthless. No art dealer or collector would pay a dime for it, nor would it win any prizes or awards or even a ‘well done’ from any teacher who appreciated art for art’s own sake. If a dealer or collector or any of the others WOULD value it or appreciate it, THEN it could be said that it had merit.

It is wholly and solely the love between parent and child that causes the parent to perceive the worthless attempt at a picture as having any value at all. So the value is all attributes by the parent and none of the child’s doing.

Hope that makes it clearer.

If someone gave you a million dollars and all you had to do was touch your nose. That is still merit.

Even if we had to do almost imposible works to receive the smallest amount of Gods favor we would still be making out like a bandit.

 

[whisperer42]

Thanks. I have seven nieces and nephews, so get a lot of offerings from budding young artists

 

[LilyM]

If someone gave you a million dollars and all you had to do was touch your nose. That is still merit.

Even if we had to do almost imposible works to receive the smallest amount of Gods favor we would still be making out like a bandit.

No, THAT is grace - an undeserved gift. Since we none of us deserve a million dollars for merely touching our nose!

And we certainly do not deserve salvation or any lesser good merely for the works we do - be they ever so good, they are in no way deserving of what we get from God in return.

 

[whisperer42]

No, THAT is grace - an undeserved gift. Since we none of us deserve a million dollars for merely touching our nose!

And we certainly do not deserve salvation or any lesser good merely for the works we do - be they ever so good, they are in no way deserving of what we get from God in return.

If that is true, then the reward for any good work would be grace.
There is no work that anyone could do that would be equal to Christ work on the cross.

 

[Hokomai]

As I understand it as an outsider (please correct me, Catholics), the validity of baptism for an adult depends in part on the intent of the person being baptised. To take an extreme example: were I to pour water from a tall building onto crowds below and recite the words of baptism, no matter my intent, those below would not be baptised validly. At a minimum, those being baptised must intend what the Church intends by baptism, even if they are unaware of some of what that entails. If the OP did not intend what the Church intends by baptism, surely the baptism would be invalid. Consequently, so too would be confirmation. If this is the case, it should be possible for a caring Church official to provide a statement in writing to that effect, based of course on the statements made by the OP. That would resolve the OP’s issue, and allow the OP to consider their religious future in freedom from the impediments s/he sees.

 

[LilyM]

If that is true, then the reward for any good work would be grace.
There is no work that anyone could do that would be equal to Christ work on the cross.

Indeed. One of the Psalms puts it eloquently - ‘if the Lord does not build the house, then in vain do its labourers work.’

And yes, the reward for any good work - as far as God is concerned - is indeed grace.

Otherwise, what is to prevent someone who gives food to the hungry as a promotional stunt for their business, and with no thought of the good of those hungry, from gaining merit alongside his brother who gives just as much food but purely out of a wish to serve Christ in the least of His brothers?

The fact that the two works, although materially the same, are very different in the eyes of God shows that their value depends not on the works themselves, but on His grace which inspires the latter worker but not the former.

 

[whisperer42]

No, THAT is grace - an undeserved gift. Since we none of us deserve a million dollars for merely touching our nose!

Lily another way to think about it.
Lets say you were on a game show, and asked “who was the first President of the United States”. If you answer George Washington and win two million dollar. That would still NOT be grace.

EDIT - But if I just gave you $20 that would be grace.

 

[whisperer42]

Indeed. One of the Psalms puts it eloquently - ‘if the Lord does not build the house, then in vain do its labourers work.’

And yes, the reward for any good work - as far as God is concerned - is indeed grace. Otherwise, what is to prevent someone who gives food to the hungry as a promotional stunt for their business, and with no thought of the good of those hungry, from getting to heaven alongside his brother who gives just as much food but purely out of a wish to serve Christ in the least of His brothers?

The fact that the two works, although materially the same, are very different in the eyes of God shows that their value depends not on the works themselves, but on His grace which inspires the latter worker but not the former.

Right, but the giver (no matter how pure in heart) could not earn grace. If s/he did then its not grace.

 

[LilyM]

Lily another way to think about it.
Lets say you were on a game show, and asked “who was the first President of the United States”. If you answer George Washington and win two million dollar. That would still NOT be grace.

Hmm - well, assuming that I was rewarded because I know more or answered quicker than other contestants, then it is at least partly a reward for skill and intelligence, although it is a highly disproportionate one.

On a spiritual level, though, all the value that attaches to anything we do is grace, because no skill or talent on our part is required to do it. A five year old child can give the needy food and drink just as well as I can, and can pray just as sincerely.

 

[whisperer42]

Hmm - well, assuming that I was rewarded because I know more or answered quicker than other contestants, then it is at least partly a reward for skill and intelligence, although it is a highly disproportionate one.

Even with no other contestants. If you answer you won a prize. Not grace.

On a spiritual level, though, all the value that attaches to anything we do is grace, because no skill or talent on our part is required to do it. A five year old child can gives the needy food and drink just as well as I can, and can pray just as sincerely.

That would be evidence of grace since God is working through you or through the child, but grace could not be given because of that.

 

[LilyM]

Even with no other contestants. If you answer you won a prize. Not grace.

That would be evidence of grace since God is working through you or through the child, but grace could not be given because of that.

Well, God gives the inspiration. In the sense that I co-operated - gave the food when He whispered in my ear the suggestion to do so instead of ignoring His prompting - extra grace does come because of the work as well.

Not that I can claim any credit, since both the inspiration to do the work and the ability to do it are His gift.

 

[whisperer42]

extra grace does come because of the work as well.

Any reward you get because of the work is not grace.

 

[LilyM]

Any reward you get because of the work is not grace.

A reward is something that I deserve and earn (at least to some extent) because I did the work. Grace is more like a side benefit of soing the work that is neither deserved nor earned. That’s why not everyone who does the same work gets the same graces - or indeed any graces.

In your tv example I get the million because I answered the question correctly - that is a reward, because it is a recompense for my skill.

Say instead I answer the question wrongly, but a long-lost relative happens to catch me on tv, gets in touch, and many years of a happy relationship ensue, and they end up leaving me a million in their will.

That is a benefit, sure, but it’s not so closely linked to any act or skill or talent of mine as to be rightly called a reward. I didn’t deserve or earn it by answering the question correctly - I didn’t! And I didn’t earn or deserve it for staying in touch with my relative - they could easily have closer and dearer people than me and leave everything to them instead. In fact I did not deserve or earn it in any way.

 

[whisperer42]

end up leaving me a million in their will.

Being left something in a will could be an example of grace.

Understand tho in your example, answering or not answering the question had no baring on being in the will.

 

[JRKH]

Please clarify by what you mean by visible and authoritative

I mean, is the Church someplace you can go and “Tell it to” and “Listen to” and is the Church able to “Bind and Loose”. (Mt 18:15-18)

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

whisperer42,

The conversation here about grace and merit and such like is interesting, but I begin to see where your disconnect is. It is a common disconnect that many make (including many Catholics).
What is happening is that you are viewing these things outside of the central laws of Love (Mt 22:36-40) and outside of the essence of God which also - is Love (Agape) (1 John 4:8)

God Loves us and so provides a spark of Love in us, the “seed” as it were. If we respond to that love (give it back to God), we open a pathway for the flow of Love. That pathway (in my view) is what we call grace. The more fully we respond, the more open and free flowing the pathway and the greater and more freely can God pour his Love into us.
This is the result of our efforts to fulfill the first, and greatest commandment -
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind”.

Now we are “Full” of God’s Love, full of God’s Grace - so are we done?? Not at all, for there is a second great commandment similar to the first -
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself”.
Christ gave us an additional command that is nearly the same -
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35)
So - in addition to being open to God’s Love - we must open ourselves to others. To Love others as we Love ourselves. To Love others as God has Loved us. By this we open another pathway for the Love (grace) of God to pour from us out to our neighbors. By this are we known to belong to God. And by this do we “merit” (that is, we simply make room for) MORE Love (through grace) from God which God will readily provide.

On the other hand, if we do NOT open ourselves to others, sometimes referred to as doing works of charity, we cannot make room for more Love (through grace). Furthermore, if Love is not free flowing, it tends to thicken and finally harden cutting off the channel (grace) This is often referred to as the “hardening of the heart”.

Do you begin to see how, by separating the idea of grace from Agape Love you leave yourself open to stumbling over relatively unimportant words like “merit”?

Peace
James