Under grace?

[as-a-child]

Exactly what does this mean from both a protestant and Catholic perspective?

 

[Afterburned6387]

To a Protestant, it means one who is Justified, i.e. free from the eternal punishment of Sin (if they died today, they’d end up in heaven), even though they are still in the midst of the Sanctification process.

I’ll let a catholic add their version, as opposed to speaking for a church I’m not a member of.

 

[Mike_Brick]

Exactly what does this mean from both a protestant and Catholic perspective?

I’m not a theologian, but will take a stab at your question. The Catholic term would be more like “being in a state of grace” as the equivelant of “under grace”. In the Catechism, #1996, Grace is defined as “the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life”. In #1993 on Justification, it tells us “Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom…without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.”

St. Augustine of Hippo, wrote in On Grace and Free Will, “Chapter 7.—Grace is Necessary Along with Free Will to Lead a Good Life. Therefore, my dearly beloved, as we have now proved by our former testimonies from Holy Scripture that there is in man a free determination of will for living rightly and acting rightly; so now let us see what are the divine testimonies concerning the grace of God, without which we are not able to do any good thing.”

So being Under Grace, or In A State of Grace means that the person is a believer who has accepted God’s grace and as a result of the gift, and the acceptance thereof is Justified by God at that time.

I hope this answers your question, and anyone else out there who can imporve our efforts here, feel to jump in and help us out.

Peace To All

 

[as-a-child]

Thanks for the quick responses.

free from the eternal punishment of Sin (if they died today, they’d end up in heaven), even though they are still in the midst of the Sanctification process.
Just a quick question here, if the sanctification process is still going on how can you be free from the punishment of sin? Then the next question is how is one justified?

Just a little backgroung here my wife is SBC, and always throws out the phrase we are under grace she never really explains to me what she means so i’m trying to figure it out

 

[Mike_Brick]

Thanks for the quick responses.
Just a quick question here, if the sanctification process is still going on how can you be free from the punishment of sin? Then the next question is how is one justified?D

Most So. Baptists, (my wife of 39 years is still just barely So. Baptist), believe once a person is “under grace”, they will never be held accountable for future sins. They don’t put it in those terms, but that is in essence what they believe under the term “eternal security” or “once saved always saved”. They think they cannot loose their salvation no matter what.

As you know Catholics believe that when they are first justified, the slate is wiped clean, they are no longer in a state of sin, but a state of grace. We also believe that a deliberate, wilful, serious sin against God can cause us to be back to a state of sin again, in need of repentance/reconcilliation, (we have written bad stuff on that clean slate). This does not require re-justification or re-baptism, only forgiveness of the sin(s).

Justificaiton for the So. Baptist is when they make that first profession of faith in Jesus as Lord. For them sanctification in this life only leads to a better reward on earth, (health, prosperity, happiness, etc.) and in heaven, (bigger mansion, “more stars in their crown”, etc.)

For Catholics, normally justification is at baptism, and sanctification is a life long process ending in salvation at their indivudual judgement, or the final judgement, which ever comes first.

I hope this wasn’t confusing.

 

[Afterburned6387]

Catholics and Protestants are in surprising agreement here, or at least myself as a member of a non-SBC baptist church (Though I still call myself a Southern Baptist)

The difference is this, Protestants (or, at least the more Calvinistic-leaning) believe, as the previous post stated, once saved always saved, and “Eternal Security”

That said, “The tree is known by its fruit,” (Luke 6:44), and if one does not continue in good works, it is an indication that they are not “under grace,” or “saved”

That said, it is entirely possible, in fact, my life is an example of this, for a “true” conversion to happen (i.e. I was actually justified), but then no good works to manifest themselves sometimes for years, or even for someone to follow the Lord for years, then fall away for a time. Even in these times, one can be “Eternally Secure,” though I point out in most cases, they come back to following the Lord before they die.

The point is this, we cannot determine who is truly “saved” and who isn’t, even by works, we cannot see the heart of an individual, but if we see someone not proceeding in good works, it is an indication to us, as that person’s church family, to personally minister to that person to get them back on track.

Also, any theologically sound Baptist church will not preach “fire-insurance,” One does not say a “sinner’s prayer” and magically get into heaven. One must approach the Throne of Grace, and beg for forgiveness, to understand the depravity of their lives, and their need for salvation. It must be sincere.

Here, though, is the difference between Catholics and Protestants.

If a life of a believer is not filled with good works:
A catholic will say they lost their salvation
A protestant will say they might not have been saved to begin with

 

[as-a-child]

If a life of a believer is not filled with good works:
A catholic will say they lost their salvation
A protestant will say they might not have been saved to begin with

Actually individual Catholics may say that, but the Church does not teach that. Therfore true Catholics cannot make assumptions about who has or has not lost their salvation.

.

 

[christcnection1]

For a Catholic, those who are “under grace” are in Christ. Protestants would agree.

All those who die “under grace” also die “in God’s friendship.” Hence, they are saved.

Where we would differ is that we do not believe one is “declared righteous” (a.k.a. imputed righteousness). We believe in infused righteousness, in that we are actually made holy, and perfected before we enter heaven.

Those who die in a state of grace, walking in God’s friendship are assured salvation. This means they did not die in a state of mortal sin.

Both Catholics and Protestants can agree that those who are truly following Jesus Christ are “under grace.”

 

[Afterburned6387]

Well put, thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, that was both charitable and informative, a rarity in these forums.

 

[Blinky]

If a life of a believer is not filled with good works:
A catholic will say they lost their salvation
A protestant will say they might not have been saved to begin with

Actually individual Catholics may say that, but the Church does not teach that. Therfore true Catholics cannot make assumptions about who has or has not lost their salvation.

.

Nonetheless, it’s a good benchmark about whose company one should keep.

 

[mikeledes]

Here, though, is the difference between Catholics and Protestants.

If a life of a believer is not filled with good works:
A catholic will say they lost their salvation
A protestant will say they might not have been saved to begin with

I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance.

1 Corinthians 9:26

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:12-14

**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **

Hebrews 4:11

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**

"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."

with Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

and James 1:12

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation? It seems that Calvinists/OSAS Protestants are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Ghosty]

Do Baptists believe that Grace makes us literal partakers of the Divine Nature?

Peace and God bless!