Under the Banner of Heaven

[otm]

Tmaque:

If today’s Mormonism is a cult then then today’s Catholicism is a cult as well.

I agree with you that brick throwing is generally not a means of having an intelligent conversation.

However, from personal experience and research, I do not find similarities between Mormonism and Catholicism.

I ahven’t met too many lukewarm Mormons. the ones I have met, and observed over a period of about 8 years, are quite interesting in their behavior. Mormons stick with hteir own better than any religious group I can identify, including Catholics. They are involved in numerous activities at their church (stake, etc) on a regular basis. A 12 year old boy who is active in his religion will be involved in 16 to 20 hours per week of religious and religious related activities. Trty to find a Catholic youth involved in that much; if he is in public schools, you would be hard pressed to exceed two hours a week.

The kids are kept so busy they have little or no time to associate with non-LDS, and they are definitely not encouraged to do so.

The parents are just as isolated and isolationist. I have yet to find a member who has any social life outside the confines of the Church. And I find this both with the Mormon adults I know, and with numerous people who say they have a Mormon “friend”; upon close questioning, it comes out that the “friend” is only and acquaintence.

If for nothing else than their social patterns, I would put them in a cult status.

 

[MaggieOH]

the Scientologists are far worse than the LDS. If you want current criminal activity check out what they are up to in Florida.

Maggie

 

[Tmaque]

otm:

I agree with you that brick throwing is generally not a means of having an intelligent conversation.

However, from personal experience and research, I do not find similarities between Mormonism and Catholicism.

I ahven’t met too many lukewarm Mormons. the ones I have met, and observed over a period of about 8 years, are quite interesting in their behavior. Mormons stick with hteir own better than any religious group I can identify, including Catholics. They are involved in numerous activities at their church (stake, etc) on a regular basis. A 12 year old boy who is active in his religion will be involved in 16 to 20 hours per week of religious and religious related activities. Trty to find a Catholic youth involved in that much; if he is in public schools, you would be hard pressed to exceed two hours a week.

The kids are kept so busy they have little or no time to associate with non-LDS, and they are definitely not encouraged to do so.

The parents are just as isolated and isolationist. I have yet to find a member who has any social life outside the confines of the Church. And I find this both with the Mormon adults I know, and with numerous people who say they have a Mormon “friend”; upon close questioning, it comes out that the “friend” is only and acquaintence.

If for nothing else than their social patterns, I would put them in a cult status.

Speaking as an ex-Mormon living in the heart of the Salt Lake Valley I couldn’t disagree more. My Mormon neighbors, family, and even some friends(that stayed true to our friendship after my apostasy) are a large part of this Catholic person’s life. They are committed to their faith. And, yes, more so than most Catholics. Which, I think is to our shame, not theirs! But, they’re certainly not isolated, they don’t control their member’s behaviour and they don’t shy away from intelligent, thoughtful, discussions about the differences in faith traditions. None of these would be consistent with cult-like behaviour. I don’t know where you live but I think your experience is not the norm.

 

[cestusdei]

mormon fool:

Well Arrington has deceased, but he died a faithful member of the mormon church. Davis Bitton was a close friend of his, they wrote books together. Both are a good example of historians that know just as much as anybody about mormon history but stay as highly supportive of the LDS church.

You are right that some ex-mormons don’t have much credibility based on their lifestyles. Mormons tend to point out their biases, but they also thoroughly rebut their writings.

Palmer was not excommunicated, he was “disfellowshipped”. That mostly means he is still LDS, but can get off probabation if he repents. Palmer’s arguments were thoroughly rebutted by LDS historians James Allen, Steven Harper, and Mark Ashurst-McGee.

And no, I am not afraid of Mormon history.

later,
fool

Arrington suffered tremendously. His picture is apparently not displayed among church historians. Palmer was not refuted. He was booted out. This is what happens to your best. The other historians, I haven’t read them, are probably of the farms variety. If Palmer was refuted so clearly why didn’t he repent? Why didn’t their books just demolish him? We have Catholic historians who deal with bad things that happen that remain in good standing. Palmer says he is still lds, but that he will follow historical truth whereever it leads. The lds church fears that and with good reason.

 

[mormon_fool]

cestusdei:

Arrington suffered tremendously. His picture is apparently not displayed among church historians. Palmer was not refuted. He was booted out. This is what happens to your best. The other historians, I haven’t read them, are probably of the farms variety. If Palmer was refuted so clearly why didn’t he repent? Why didn’t their books just demolish him? We have Catholic historians who deal with bad things that happen that remain in good standing. Palmer says he is still lds, but that he will follow historical truth whereever it leads. The lds church fears that and with good reason.

It is not my point that all people that scrutinize mormon history are pleased with everything that they find. Rather I am saying that it is entirely possible to remain a faithful member while being extremely knowledgeable about it.

However Arrington suffered and was slighted (and I was aware of some controversy on whether “church historian” was a church calling like it was–unlike him his predecessors were general authorities), the forest-for-the-trees view is he maintained his testimony in the church.

Palmer can not be considered “the best” by any measure. Intellectually, he only had a Master’s degree in history and has no publications in scholarly journals. Morally, there are some real ethical issues as far as his CES employment and timing of his book go.

All the “FARMS type” historians that have thoroughly rebutted Palmer all have Ph.D’s. To dismiss their rebuttals without even reading them because you classify them as “FARMS types” smacks of ad hominemism, worse than what you accuse them of doing to Palmer. I think it is important to identify biases as back ground information, but they also get around to analyzing Palmer’s arguments and find them lacking.

Palmer’s only original contribution is that the Book of Mormon was plagerized from The Golden Pot. The parellels between the two are so strained it is laughable. His other contribution is to re-iterate old historical criticisms that have long been rebutted, and presenting them without any acknowledgement of the rebuttals. This is scholarship at its best?

Just because Palmer’s book has been demolished, it doesn’t mean that he is going to repent. People can look at the same data and come to different conclusions. The LDS church can still be false, even if bad arguments made against it are proven wrong.

The LDS church does not fear Palmer, as much as they fear the consequences to Palmer’s eternal salvation. To be “disfellowshipped” is not to be booted out. The LDS church has been particularly merciful towards Palmer for a long time, giving him every chance to repent. The LDS church (as do all churches) also has the perogative to see that truth is taught and has the right decide on one’s membership status.

later,
fool

 

[Tmaque]

cestusdei:

Arrington suffered tremendously. His picture is apparently not displayed among church historians. Palmer was not refuted. He was booted out. This is what happens to your best. The other historians, I haven’t read them, are probably of the farms variety. If Palmer was refuted so clearly why didn’t he repent? Why didn’t their books just demolish him? We have Catholic historians who deal with bad things that happen that remain in good standing. Palmer says he is still lds, but that he will follow historical truth whereever it leads. The lds church fears that and with good reason.

It’s true that the LDS leadership does not suffer dissenters long. I believe that is because the LDS culture puts a lot of emphasis on a personal testimony of the divine mission of the LDS church and it’s leaders. One of the questions required for entrance into the temple is “Do you believe that Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet of God?” One could hardly answer in the affirmative if they were dissenting on very much of the church doctrine. Some say that dissenters are ex’d quickly because the LDS leadership is afraid of the truth. I think it is probably more likely that the culture demands a higher degree of fidelity than the Catholic culture does.

 

[cestusdei]

MF,
I find it interesting that so often Mormons characterize guys like Palmer as having “moral” problems. Attacking the messenger? Where did the others get their Phd’s? Was it BYU? Why should I trust them if they got their degrees from an lds school? Heck maybe they have “moral” problems? I decided to order Palmers book from the library. I look forward to it. I read the FARMS review of Brodies book and was totally unimpressed. She whupped them like a red headed stepchild. FARMS scholarship smacks of cant I am afraid. Palmer wanted to remain Mormon. He didn’t have any desire to leave the lds church. So then why boot him? If you are so open etc.?

 

[mormon_fool]

cestusdei:

MF,
I find it interesting that so often Mormons characterize guys like Palmer as having “moral” problems. Attacking the messenger? Where did the others get their Phd’s? Was it BYU? Why should I trust them if they got their degrees from an lds school? Heck maybe they have “moral” problems? I decided to order Palmers book from the library. I look forward to it. I read the FARMS review of Brodies book and was totally unimpressed. She whupped them like a red headed stepchild. FARMS scholarship smacks of cant I am afraid. Palmer wanted to remain Mormon. He didn’t have any desire to leave the lds church. So then why boot him? If you are so open etc.?

Where the reviewers got their degrees:

Steve Harper (Ph.D. from Lehigh University)
Mark Ashurst-McGee (a Ph.D. student at Arizona State)
James Allen (Ph.D., University of Southern California)
Davis Bitton (Ph.D., Princeton University)
Louis C. Midgley (Ph.D., Brown University)

Ironically, Palmer is the one that got his degree from BYU. Obviously you shouldn’t trust him

If any of these scholars have ethical problems as severe as Palmer’s, please find them and point them out to us. By all means let us identify the writer’s (on both sides) biases and character traits that flavor or control the arguments presented. However, the actual arguments should also be addressed and FARMS has done this too. It is the critics, with few exceptions, who have failed to keep up on the actual arguments.

How is my attacking Palmer as a messenger any different than you attacking FARMS scholarship as a messenger? Seems to me like the pot calling the kettle black.

I will reiterate Palmer is still a member of the church, he has not been booted out, as you suggest.

As for Brodie, I think she thoroughly got schooled by Hugh Nibley and others. I am glad you are getting the Palmer book. It will be a great improvement over the mind-reading historical fiction Brodie writes.

later,
fool

 

[cestusdei]

MF,
I did some research on FARMS. They have scholars who have graduated from other schools and written published works. BUT…FARMS does not participate in peer review of its work. You don’t have FARMS scholars submitting their work on deer being horses to peer review. So your guys may have gone to other universities, I have degrees from 2 different Protestant and 1 Catholic school, but they don’t submit their work to peer reviewers. FARMS has a rep for preaching to the converted rather then doing work that is scholarly accepted by non-lds experts. I will decide who to trust after I read Palmers book. Have you read it? If you have and you mentioned it in your temple recommend interview what might happen?

 

[Natas]

…something can be defined as a cult when, a PERSON is the root of the organization…true religion is the worship of a GOD, or GODS…Now a Mormon may say that they worship the same God that other Christians worship etc…but this is really a pie in the sky type of sidestep…meant to justify a human concept disguised as divinity…this is the rotten underbelly of it all in my opinion. There is a severe twisting, perversion of a faith, and religion that has real PROVENANCE…with the origin being a GOD…What is the true origin of Mormonism?..It’s basically “some guy”…who claims to have went onto a small hill in New York, and found some golden plates written in “reformed Egyptian”… Mind you that an “angel from another planet” was his contact…now we seriously have to think about this. I’ve not read anywhere where a Mormon actually professed that they believe this, or whether or not they even know the true origin of their “faith”!!..because this is where it indeed began. I could go on for a few pages regarding all of the problems with the Joseph Smith story…but obviously it would be a waste of time, because if you seriously believe that this guy was visited from an angel from another planet, and found gold plates written in “reformed egyptian” on a hill in New York…then well what can I say…I guess this is where I get my Criminal, victim, or insane…badge for people.

1. You either know the story is ****, and you are somehow usurping the idea to carry out the polygamist, pedophilia agenda and brain twisting that so many FLDS are involed in. (criminal)
2. You are a child or supremely ignorant to the critical thinking skills that would allow you to dismiss such far flung story (especially if you know Joe’s background)…this would make you a bit of a victim.
3. You are completely disturbed, dyfunctional, and possibly insane…and this story is exactly what you need and want…you may be the type of personality who is inclined to put aluminum foil on their head to thwart off alien mind readers.

 

[tkdnick]

otm:

,The parents are just as isolated and isolationist. I have yet to find a member who has any social life outside the confines of the Church. And I find this both with the Mormon adults I know, and with numerous people who say they have a Mormon “friend”; upon close questioning, it comes out that the “friend” is only and acquaintence.

I can tell you this is not true. My best friend in high school was LDS (I am Catholic). We spent hours together a week including many an interesting discussion abotu religion. My best friends now are LDS members. And believe, they are more than acquaintances. I just spent half my weekend at their house helping take care of the family after dad broke his leg and spent the weekend in the hospital. We spend a great deal of time talking about all kinds of things and frequently spend time at eachother’s houses.

 

[tkdnick]

otm:

,The parents are just as isolated and isolationist. I have yet to find a member who has any social life outside the confines of the Church. And I find this both with the Mormon adults I know, and with numerous people who say they have a Mormon “friend”; upon close questioning, it comes out that the “friend” is only and acquaintence.

I can tell you this is not true. My best friend in high school was LDS (I am Catholic). We spent hours together a week including many an interesting discussion about religion. My best friends now are LDS members. And believe, they are more than acquaintances. I just spent half my weekend at their house helping take care of the family after dad broke his leg and spent the weekend in the hospital. We spend a great deal of time talking about all kinds of things and frequently spend time at eachother’s houses.

 

[tkdnick]

1. You either know the story is ****, and you are somehow usurping the idea to carry out the polygamist, pedophilia agenda and brain twisting that so many FLDS are involed in. (criminal)
2. You are a child or supremely ignorant to the critical thinking skills that would allow you to dismiss such far flung story (especially if you know Joe’s background)…this would make you a bit of a victim.
3. You are completely disturbed, dyfunctional, and possibly insane…and this story is exactly what you need and want…you may be the type of personality who is inclined to put aluminum foil on their head to thwart off alien mind readers.

Ah, the epitomy of Christian charity!

When you say FLDS, I assume you mean Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. Let’s make a distinction here, the LDS church that is headquartered in Salt Lake City is much different from the “FLDS” splinter groups that are off in the woods doing all kinds of horrible things. Do I agree with the LDS teachings? No way! But I also do not believe that they are all some form of nut job, sickos!

 

[cestusdei]

I have had Mormons who wanted to be my friend. Until they discovered I wasn’t interested in being Mormon. Then it was goodbye.

 

[Natas]

Fundamentalism…is basically defined as a religious belief based on the literal interpretation of scripture. These people can call themselves what they want ok? I’m not the PC minded individual who likes to wrap my words in cheesecloth. (for the most part) I call it like I see it… There is a COMLETELY VERIFIABLE origin to this “sect”, “cult” etc… whatever you want to call it. It starts with a guy named Joe…and this guy has a story…a really messed up, almost funny tale full of lies, innuendos…and outright manipulation. If an individual chooses to adapt this faith then (obviously in my opinion) they fall into 3 main groups of personality…because I refuse to believe that a story like that could succeed in any other way… Have you read the guy’s own account of what happened???

tkdnick:

Ah, the epitomy of Christian charity!

When you say FLDS, I assume you mean Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. Let’s make a distinction here, the LDS church that is headquartered in Salt Lake City is much different from the “FLDS” splinter groups that are off in the woods doing all kinds of horrible things. Do I agree with the LDS teachings? No way! But I also do not believe that they are all some form of nut job, sickos!

 

[Contarini]

Given that all Christians by definition worship and follow a crucified criminal, I think we should be slow to point fingers at the LDS. I’m not at all convinced from what I know of Joseph Smith that he had any credentials as a true prophet. But if one found reason to believe so, then statements by his enemies, or even genuine flaws in his character, might not be enough to shake such belief–and rightly so.

Edwin

 

[Natas]

Point taken…but within context. Were talking about a guy who walked the earth 2000 years ago versus a guy who walked the earth during the 17 and 1800’s. Also the context of criminality has to be realized. Jesus was criminalized basically over philosophical and sociological phenomenons…I believe Joseph Smith went around taking money from people with the promise that he could somehow find water with a magic stone correct? (I believe there were other swindles)- This was before the “angel from another planet” story)…if you know the history of this guy, and read his own account…there is a blinding obviousness as to his motives and psychological makeup. As far as I remember Jesus was just walking around preaching…I don’t think he was stealing the hard earned cash of people.
QUOTE=Contarini]Given that all Christians by definition worship and follow a crucified criminal, I think we should be slow to point fingers at the LDS. I’m not at all convinced from what I know of Joseph Smith that he had any credentials as a true prophet. But if one found reason to believe so, then statements by his enemies, or even genuine flaws in his character, might not be enough to shake such belief–and rightly so.

Edwin

 

[Joseph_Romero]

Please remain within the topic of the Under Banner book. Otherwise, please start a new thread(s).

God Bless,