Under What Conditions do we Deliberately Sacrifice Our Lives?

[Truthstalker]

Jesus said take up our cross. He did not need to die - He could have walked out on the whole thing. He placed Himself in harm’s way for other people. No one forced Him - He gave up His life; He was not killed but gave it freely.

There is a time and a place for us to willingly lay down our lives for our friends. If we do it inappropriately we are throwing our lives away, or, if we refrain when we should do it, we are culpable for cowardice. I look at what the Pope recently did in his speech, by, I think, deliberately saying something that would incite Muslim anger that might end in his death, as in that category. He did not have to include the statement but he did anyway. I think we have a Pope who understands this principle and decided to do what is right in speaking truth even though it may cost him his life.

So how do we know when we should throw our lives away and it will not be needless? The Church has a long and glorious history of those who willingly gave their lives for Christ, including soldiers who, when ordered to kill the Christians, laid down their weapons and took their place with their brethren, and were killed. The cult of the martyr, we say in our comfort, went overboard. But from that blood the Church was built.

IMHO we may see a lot more of this in the very near future. “So how should we then live”, to quote Francis Shaeffer?

 

[wacky_wonderful]

I think that when the situation presents itself, you will know instantly what you need to do, and you’ll do it without hesitation, or regret.

 

[helgasdogs]

IMHO we may see a lot more of this in the very near future. “So how should we then live”, to quote Francis Shaeffer?

Since martyrdom is not purely a matter between man and God, but rather between man, history, and God, focus on Christ, in his specific historical mission, and from that, gather the matrix by which to judge the impressiveness of subsequent efforts by others.

The Roman Empire was a true monster, pinning mankind down in stagnation, slowly becoming ever more decadent and threatening to drag down all knowledge and culture with it until its final, natural collapse into a Dark Age. Christ enters this situation, and with his Apostles devises a method to overturn the empire without setting mankind back to the stone age - to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and put mankind on the path toward developing a just society, which his Church by turns later worked toward and is still working toward. So, Christ represents an historically efficient singularity that is undying, and which has spread its effect to the entire globe through the ongoing development of what can be termed globally-extended European Civilization.

All martyrdom worthy of the name imitates this. The question is one of whether one is willing to die for one’s principles, for the sake of agape - divine love of man - not in a vague-as-custard way, but in a specific, activist way. Putting yourself in the way of ruthless, armed company strikebreakers at the turn of the 20th Century, and getting killed for your troubles, can reasonably be called an act of martyrdom for the sake of justice, for the organization of labour is an act with universal implications for social justice.

The rule of thumb is this: If your action, whatever it may be, is implicitly of universal benefit to mankind, whether or not it has an immediately observable universal effect, then to the degree there are no other equal or superior alternatives, it is worth dying for.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello truthstalker,

I think you want to take a look at American soldiers who laid down their lives so that others can live in safety. Can you imagine where we would be today had not Allied troops freely gave their lives to protect the world, and their future world, our world, from Nazi terror and atrocities? I feel that Allied veterans of WWII gave the greatest gift of love to mankind of the whole twentieth century. I think WWII veterans who died gave the “greatest gift” a person can give as Jesus describes. I think our American and Allied troops today are giving the same gift.

In a recent Vatican release, the Vatican is desperately trying to convince the Muslim world that the Pope’s speech was targeting the evils of the secular West, not Islam. The Vatican is indicating that the Pope did not wish to incite violence against the Church. Please visit, read the latest from the Vatican about the Pope’s speech and post your opinion. Has the Church redirected the Pope’s speech to be an attack on America not Islam?

 

[Island_Oak]

How about every mother on the planet who donates and risks her own body to bring another to life, then sacrifices her time, rest, attention, freedom, career, etc… for decades in order to raise her children. If that’s not laying down your life for another–though short of death–I’m not sure what is.

 

[Damascus]

Here is a tip: Dont run into a burning building to save an animal.
People do this and some die doing it.
I think that is a grave sin.

Heroic measures are fine if they are within reason.

If you have a guy with a sword to your neck asking you to renounce your faith and cry out “allahakbar” or something like that- well, personally I would let him whack off my head before I’d say that. Dont think its a sin if you do though.

You could come up with a million different senarios here and in the end I think its basic common sense.

Dont waste your life as it is a precious gift.
But, your faith is a precious gift too.

Use balance and reason to figure this out if and when you ever need to do so.

 

[esr]

With the current violence against Christians recently, I was thinking of what I would do if I was forced to deny my faith and convert to Islam at gunpoint. I would hope that God would give me the grace to perservere and not denounce Him. However, what if they pointed the gun at someone else (maybe your own child) and said if you don’t deny your faith and convert the other person will be killed or tortured. I struggle with this, especially if it was my own child. Should we risk our own soul to save the life of another? Does it matter if the other person is your family or a stranger?

 

[psteichen]

This thread reminds me of the recent national story in which a FOX news reporter and his cameraman were kidnapped. After they were freed they acknowledged that they were not tortured or brutalized. Yet they were asked to go on camera and publicly convert to Islam. This included learning to read some little “prayers” in Arabic. They perhaps were threatened in someway, I don’t know they whole story. But they did go on camera and convert to Islam. Certainly decided they didn’t want to be martyrs. Perhaps they were atheists anyhow and didn’t know the significance.

 

[Island_Oak]

This thread reminds me of the recent national story in which a FOX news reporter and his cameraman were kidnapped. After they were freed they acknowledged that they were not tortured or brutalized. Yet they were asked to go on camera and publicly convert to Islam. This included learning to read some little “prayers” in Arabic. They perhaps were threatened in someway, I don’t know they whole story.

Hell-o…they were kidnapped by force, by armed fanatic Muslims in a WAR ZONE. Yeah, I’d say they’d been sufficiently threatened. How many beheadings on the internet do you need to watch before you believe these guys have no qualms about killing Americans.

But they did go on camera and convert to Islam. Certainly decided they didn’t want to be martyrs. Perhaps they were atheists anyhow and didn’t know the significance.

Perhaps they were dads…and felt a greater good was served by returning to their families by capitulating to the demands of some lunatic with an agenda more political than religious. Not all are called to martrydom and brash defiance of irrationality is not necessarily the equivalent of defending the faith.

 

[Pug]

I’ve always figured the most likely (still is not very likely) way for me to go out as a hero would be to save a drowning child’s life or something similar. That’s not something that is a deliberate sacrifice really, it is seeing something good and pursuing it, even though there might be consequences. All good things will come to fruition or completion in Jesus. We don’t have to worry that if we die in the pursuit of a good, that the result will be nothing but loss.

Of course, one ought to consider their current obligations before embarking upon a dangerous course. I don’t have any that are relevant, so I should be the one if it comes up. Let’s hope I’m not a chicken.

 

[Truthstalker]

How about every mother on the planet who donates and risks her own body to bring another to life, then sacrifices her time, rest, attention, freedom, career, etc… for decades in order to raise her children. If that’s not laying down your life for another–though short of death–I’m not sure what is.

Excellent point, often overlooked - except by God.

 

[Damascus]

I’ve always figured the most likely (still is not very likely) way for me to go out as a hero would be to save a drowning child’s life or something similar. That’s not something that is a deliberate sacrifice really, it is seeing something good and pursuing it, even though there might be consequences. All good things will come to fruition or completion in Jesus. We don’t have to worry that if we die in the pursuit of a good, that the result will be nothing but loss.

Of course, one ought to consider their current obligations before embarking upon a dangerous course. I don’t have any that are relevant, so I should be the one if it comes up. Let’s hope I’m not a chicken.

No way Pug. You will be the best you can or are able to be at that time considering the circumstances for your particular vocation at that moment–

Your humillity is an inspiration to me!

I think we should study the martyrs in honour of your comment and this thread – Thanks OP!
You reminded me of the people we least think about that helped get us here- and without them, we would not be here.

 

[psteichen]

Hell-o…they were kidnapped by force, by armed fanatic Muslims in a WAR ZONE. Yeah, I’d say they’d been sufficiently threatened. How many beheadings on the internet do you need to watch before you believe these guys have no qualms about killing Americans.

Perhaps they were dads…and felt a greater good was served by returning to their families by capitulating to the demands of some lunatic with an agenda more political than religious. Not all are called to martrydom and brash defiance of irrationality is not necessarily the equivalent of defending the faith.

Island Oak:

I agree not everyone is called to martyrdom. And no, I haven’t seen any beheadings on the Internet…not quite the thing I go looking for. But I think we could all agree that if they had decided to stand up to their kidnappers and had been martyred defending their faith that it would make a dramatic statement. They were minor celebrities after all. I’m not saying they where required to, but it would have made a great point if they had. There are others who are being martyred every day in other parts of the world. Some think those days are over, but they are sorely mistaken.

But to put your mind at ease, no, no one is required to make the ultimate sacrifice.