Undercover Catholic Part II

[JCPhoenix]

(continued from last post)

Sorry to have to continue, but I really want to share this experience as it was powerful…althoguh not enough to pull me away from Catholicism.

Anyway, while I watched all this going on and so many people going forward to pledge their lives to Jeus (ie “getting Saved”), I couldnt’ help but be touched and understand that although it may not be Catholic God was working everywhere.

Everyone needs to start somewhere.

The girl with me…I can’t remember her words, and I almost resented her intrusion into my personal thought but still was nearly grateful as I might have been REALLY teary if I didn’t have her to focus upon! (I’m a weeper…does not do when one is in uniform and acting in official capacity).

In the meantime I silently prayed with her…and I think for her converstion to Catholicism as well.

I left that night so touched and having more understanding of Protestant faiths. I learned that God is there also, and I realized that maybe Catholicism doens’t appeal to so many since we do seem to have such a huge seperation between the Priests and the laity.

I don’t know how to “sell” our faith in comparison to all that show, but I would LOVE for our Priests, if they have the time ever, to find a way to talk to youth as that pastor did. I know there are several priests who have lived difficult lives…and to share their story in a converstional manner without all the fanfare does reach people.

I’m sorry I can’t help…but I hope that we can all figure out a way to reach people without compromising the solemnity of the Mass (which I LOVE, btw!)

 

[dream_wanderer]

JCPhoenix:

does reach people.

I’m sorry I can’t help…but I hope that we can all figure out a way to reach people without compromising the solemnity of the Mass (which I LOVE, btw!)

That is the key. I converted from Protestantism and I can tell you from first hand experience that while a lot of the flash and bang is impressive it really doesn’t show up that much as fruit in people’s lives. Most of them as soon as they leave the building it is gone. Sometimes it might last for a day or two…but then they have to get back to the flash and bang for another hit. Its almost like an addiction.

I want the Mass to stay the way it is. I don’t think it should be touched. However there can be activities outside of mass that can appeal to young people…it just takes someone with a good imagination and a knowledges of what young people really want and need.

dream wanderer

 

[montanaman]

Speaking of ecumenical dialogue, I’ve been crossing all kinds of chasms lately. With internet interlocutors (who were former nemeses), co-workers, the Protestant girlfriend, and friends who said they’d never be a Catholic. Seems like everyone I talk to these days is more open to Catholicism than before our conversations. And as a result, my faith in Christ and his Church is strengthened, AND, I am able to find worth in the things they do on Sundays, too.

I don’t want rock bands in the National Shrine, (though I’ve seen that). I think the best thing we can do is keep talking to people. In love. Not hard theology at first. I think the bulk of our time is spent clearing up misconceptions, and it’s time well-spent.

 

[badebop]

I read through these posts last night (Saturday), and early this morning as I was sitting in our small church, nothing flashy, only me and my guitar humbly trying to contribute what music I could for edification of our Lord, and a wave of thankfullness came over me. You know, when you actually sigh? Thankful for the great gift of the Holy Mass that Jesus gave us and the opportunity to cleanse our souls of the sinfullness we are guilty of. Thank you, Jesus!

 

[FDS]

dream wanderer:

That is the key. I converted from Protestantism and I can tell you from first hand experience that while a lot of the flash and bang is impressive it really doesn’t show up that much as fruit in people’s lives. Most of them as soon as they leave the building it is gone. Sometimes it might last for a day or two…but then they have to get back to the flash and bang for another hit. Its almost like an addiction.

dream wanderer

I’ve heard of that as well. I heard it on a evangelical radio show. It is almost like an addiction and doesn’t have a lot of lasting effects for a lot of people.

 

[sparkle]

montanaman:

A few months ago I did some recon at a Baptist church and was amazed at what I saw. Last night I went to the McLean Bible Church near my home and was stunned. And despite myself, I was a little seduced…

Dear “Montanaman”

Just wanted to say God Bless You Brother! This is what I grew up with–Dad and other relatives pastors in a place just like this-------Yes–it is very appealing I know full well–and especially can totally SEDUCE folks into their version of the Faith and their version of Truth, can’t it? especially those under 30--------

I say just this to you-------people should not be fooled by this Secularism, and this “feel good” “cool” brand of Fundamentalism. This is meant to appeal to the masses. It works straight to appealing to the way society is today. Very smooth, appealing music, even “Starbucks” in the building. Yes, I know–where we attend Wed. nites also has this.!!! But I say to you----don’t be fooled. Yes–music is great-----coffee is great------passionate speakers are too—of course when they talk of Jesus Christ of course-----but just keep in mind they are missing alot of their faith. There IS so much more. Sure–enjoy it—go with your friend–but also tell him that it is incomplete.

I really think once a Christian matures in the faith—there is a point where they need to get beyond all this exterior. It’s like dating a “hottie” —sure–it feels good–exciting, etc. but when things take a more serious turn–it’s what’s on the inside that REALLY counts, not just the exterior.

I commend you for pulling out your rosary! And for having courage with your friend-where many Christian Catholics just don’t have this courage. Keep doing it–keep “witnessing” we all need to-- Tell and show your friend how incomplete their brand of American Christianity really is. Explain how all this cannot substitute for JESUS in the Eucharist. Sure it’s appealling but it’s not really the real thing! It will fade–and in 30 years, they’ll be another “in” locale–another “cool” band, another fad. Another zealot screaming from their stage. As Catholics—our Christianity is the real thing! However, do what you can in your parish to spice things up-------many parishes do need a little of this-----get involved!

I would really recommend the little phamplet: “How I Solved the Catholic Problem” by Kristine Franklin----order it from Catholic Society of Evangelists --1-909-825-0377. It’s about .50 I think. It’s FABULOUS --and really lays our “American version of Christianity” on the line --give it to those who are seduced by this “feel good” Christianity. It’s written by a former Missionary who thought they could evangelize the world, like many do, by spreading this “feel good” Bible-waving version of the faith.!!!

God Bless You~~

 

[montanaman]

So, I went back to McLean Bible Church yesterday. Let me say it straight for those of you who feel that anxious call to arms–I am not converting. Even if I became convinced that the Protestants were right, I’d still have to be dragged kicking and screaming from the Church. And anyway, I’d already brought my fundy girlfriend to Mass the night before, and I’d attended the noon solemn Mass that day. My Catholic credentials are solid.

I only went to McLean Bible Church (Concert) again because the music is actually pretty good–and I hate Christian music. That, and my buddy needed some moral support for a girlfriend situation.

The “service” was much more of the same, except this time they trotted out a little kid to talk about how their children’s ministry needs loads of money. He was utterly cute–precocious, articulate, well-dressed, and not very shy. He couldn’t even pronounce his “r’s” or “l’s”. Words came out like, “I weally wike my chiwdwen’s gwoup.” Naturally, I loathed the little solicitor, and I was disgusted at how the hip pastor sat down on the edge of the stage with him and prodded him with well-rehearsed questions.

The rest of it was a rock concert and a Bible study, but the Bible study was pretty good. The pastor is doing a weekly series on the faith of Solomon. His sermon included big graphic maps on the huge flat screen monitors, some history, and engaging and humorous commentary. I found myself waking up.

The whole time, however, I was once again depressed. Oh, it wasn’t bad, but I realized there is very little we can do to “compete.” Lights, cameras, rock & roll–all contributed to a highly charged emotional environment that puts stuffy, dusty old things like “doctrine” and “truth” in a utility closet somewhere.

Afterward, the buddy and I went downstairs to the in-house Starbucks for some coffee. A co-worker of ours came along with us. I didn’t know she was a “non-denominational Christian.” In fact, I thought she was Catholic. Turns out, she was. She recently started attending the McLean Bible Concert. At first, I was heartbroken, but after making a few comments about the Church–it’s history, it’s fullness, it’s TRUTH–that were completely lost on her, I gave up. (No worries, though. In all sincerity, this girl is just…“slow.” Not because she’s a fallen away Catholic, but because of several conversations I’ve had with her in the past. I honestly wonder how she gets her shoes on the right feet in the morning. At one point, she insisted my camera phone didn’t work even after I showed her how to use it–she kept looking into the lense…)

I think Church-lovers such as myself can console themselves with the knowledge that ultimately it isn’t up to us. All we can do is “witness” to the best of our ability and pray. Hopefully the cheap seductions will be obvious to people as time drags on and they realize they aren’t fulfilled. At least, that’s what I tell myself…

 

[sarahcabanski]

My husband and I recently went to a service at a church just like the one you described for our nephew’s dedication. My husband is not Catholic (or any other religion right now) and he said he thought that was a cool church to go to. I told him if he wanted to be entertained, he should go to that church. But if he wants TRUTH he should go to the Catholic Church. Yes, our masses can sometimes be dull, but we are the only church that has the fullness of truth.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

sarahcabanski:

My husband and I recently went to a service at a church just like the one you described for our nephew’s dedication. My husband is not Catholic (or any other religion right now) and he said he thought that was a cool church to go to. I told him if he wanted to be entertained, he should go to that church. But if he wants TRUTH he should go to the Catholic Church. Yes, our masses can sometimes be dull, but we are the only church that has the fullness of truth.

Good point. What people don’t understand is that when you attempt to make your church appealing in what might be described as a marketing sense, you end up commodifying the Church. (You know, like T-shirts that say “Lord’s Gym: Bench Press This!” with a picture of fallen Lord with cross on top). When you do that, you make it more abstract, less real, just another blaring voice in the flotsam and jetsom of pop culture.

Scott

 

[asteroid]

dream wanderer:

That is the key. I converted from Protestantism and I can tell you from first hand experience that while a lot of the flash and bang is impressive it really doesn’t show up that much as fruit in people’s lives. Most of them as soon as they leave the building it is gone. Sometimes it might last for a day or two…but then they have to get back to the flash and bang for another hit. Its almost like an addiction.

dream wanderer

Hope I’m doing this right - I’ve never put quotes from other peoples posts in my own so it may all go wrong!

I totally agree with this. I’m on the move towards catholicism and have been part of a variety of other churches including ones that had more of the “Toronto Blessing” than the Toronto Airport Fellowship ever did (the church famous for it that may even have been behind the “Acquire the Fire” conference that was mentioned).

The emotional high that such events and experiences bring us is amazing. But it doesn’t last, just as no such high would last. When it has gone it can leave you wondering what you’re doing wrong, why God isn’t affecting you that way anymore and you crave another high. And get it the next week, a good “bless you up” as it gets called sometimes.

Yes, it’s like an addiction - and I was an addict, forever falling on my back, “laughing in the spirit”, manifesting, spouting tongues etc.

Some people end up putting this “addiction” in front of Jesus - I was in a church where the pastor was dismayed to find people leaving the church. Not because the vision had decayed. Not because the teaching had decayed. Or anything like that. But solely because the church was seeing less manifestations (so called) of the Spirit.

The highs, the emotions, the funky music, the stirring words of a preacher, or whatever else produce no lasting effect, no change in life. Only God produces the change and a commitment to continually seek after Him and His service.

That doesn’t mean these conferences are bad, or the funky music is bad, or that saying the “Sinner’s Prayer” isn’t a good start. But without God they are useless. And it’s sometimes hard to tell what is of God and what is not of God.

I’m not going to say that God isn’t in these things - I know people who have been profoundly changed - but I do believe man often takes over - and that little of what happened to me was of God, most of it was of myself living out my own desires of what I expected God to be doing.

I read The Way of A Pilgrim a couple of years ago (great Orthodox work) and it affected my thoughts a lot. One thing comes to mind. The pilgrim has amazing experiences with God just as many Orthodox people have done. But he and they insist that you have to be very, very, very sure before ascribing any inner experience to God.

And I think that’s one major fault of the entire charismatic movement, the Toronto Blessing and such things - events and feelings are ascribed to God too easily. In an effort not to quench the spirit or even blaspheme the spirit lots of things are ascribed to the Spirit that are of man (and probably, though more rarely, the devil).

“God” may touch you profoundly on a Sunday or a Friday night. You might fall over, shake, “pogo”, weep 7 gallons, laugh hysterically or do all manner of things. But when mid-week comes and the emotional energy and hormones have gone - that’s when you discover that God wasn’t doing any of it to you and that you only wanted it to be God. That’s when you wonder where God went - when he hasn’t gone anywhere.

That’s quite long enough - it probably didn’t say what I wanted it to but did at least give an accurate view of my own experiences. Just previewed this post - it’s not long enough. It’s too long.

Blessings

Asteroid

 

[Maccabees]

What happens in a lot of Low church protestantism and Penatacostalicism is that they have placed emotion as the arbrter of truth. Which is a vary dangerous and fleeting thing. Not that it is entirelly a bad thing but that alone won’t keep you going when the music stops and your getting rattled by your atheist college professor.

I believe 80 percent of evangelicals loose thier faith after attending a secular college ( I haven’t read catholic stats although I suspect while not as high it probably is to high due to recent cathchetics) . I think this is becuase they are ill equiped for the emotion based faith to stand up to the secular world where logic and reason rule and faith and emotion are ridiculed. Catholicism on the other hand is a combination of faith, logic, reason and emotion. You can have everything! Secularism lacks faith and emotion while low church protestants often lack logic and reason. Read Saint Thomas and you will know you can have it all in the Catholic faith. cathocims is the fullness of the faith while protestants can excell in certain exagerations of catholic truths invariably they lack something which the catholic church contains.

 

[Anglo-catholic]

I believe it is not the entertainment element that is the attraction, but the observation of the the working of the Holy Spirit. Seeing people moved to conversion, strong men weep, etc is not an emotional high - it is God working in peoples lives. If we don’t see this in our church we wonder if we are in the wrong place. Remember - by their fruits you will know them - and I don’t see much fruit in the silent pew sitters. What has to be remembered also is that no one is NOT required to attend these Protestant/ non-Denom services. Everyone comes out in droves willingly and thirsty for more.

I attended a 3-day retreat at a Catholic church presented by a black nun. Her agenda called for a night of testimonies. I thought this might work at an inner city church but not here in the affluent white suburbs. I could not imagine the response she received that night. At first, one or two kids took the mike and thanked Jesus for their parents, then an adult for their caring family, then the dam broke and all heaven broke loose.

A widower who thanked Jesus for seeing him through his wife’s long terminal illness, a woman spoke of being told that she had terminal cancer and a month to live and now stand here 12 years after, a nun in her 80’s spoke of how she was called at age 14, etc , etc. The only thing missing was miraculous healings!! (I am in tears now at recalling the experience)

That is what is missing - That is the God experience that feeds us and keeps us coming back for more. But just the concept of having a nun (instead of a priest) do the retreat, and her agenda met with great opposition. A request to have confession available the closing night was rejected - “We have confession every Saturday - they can come then”. We have to be open to God however He comes to us!! His Spirit IS ALIVE in His Church.
Does your church look alive?

 

[pamflute]

I have read this thread with much interest. I started looking at Catholicism about two years ago when my own church turned the music over to the youth director and his band on stage. Then I left that church for one of the few traditional churches in this town which is also leaning more contemporary. Our church is currently following the Purpose Driven Life series which includes more “contemporary” music, a skit and a sermon based on an outline of the book. Skits, pop music, appealing to young people - these are things that seem to drive the Protestant faith right now. If you try to tell them to not base their services on such shallow things, they tell you we need to reach the youth and all those things attract young people! It seems our churches have lost the sense of anything sacred, anything mysterious, divine, whatever. For personal reasons I cannot really explore Catholicism more fully but I appreciate its long and glorious history. I hope all of you do as well! Don’t change what you have for this other kind of worship. It ultimately falls flat, even though it might give a person a temporary high.

 

[sparkle]

pamflute:

I have read this thread with much interest. I started looking at Catholicism about two years ago when my own church turned the music over to the youth director and his band on stage. Then I left that church for one of the few traditional churches in this town which is also leaning more contemporary. Our church is currently following the Purpose Driven Life series which includes more “contemporary” music, a skit and a sermon based on an outline of the book. Skits, pop music, appealing to young people - these are things that seem to drive the Protestant faith right now. If you try to tell them to not base their services on such shallow things, they tell you we need to reach the youth and all those things attract young people! It seems our churches have lost the sense of anything sacred, anything mysterious, divine, whatever. For personal reasons I cannot really explore Catholicism more fully but I appreciate its long and glorious history. I hope all of you do as well! Don’t change what you have for this other kind of worship. It ultimately falls flat, even though it might give a person a temporary high.

Pamflute:

You’ve just got to become a Catholic.!!! It’s so much more fulfilling than all the “pop religious culture,skits,contemporary junk”, etc. etc. I used to be there, and my soul is completely full now. Yours will be too friend!

 

[Adam_S]

Its funny that the question is being asked “How can we compete with that?” My answer would be “We musn’t!”

I was curious about Christiantity and went to investigate, straight into The Christian Union at my University (Im 19), which is supposed to be non-denominational but is Anglican Anglican Anglican (Im from England by the way)!!! It wasnt as posh as this place you hark on about, but it was that typical sing song “Yo heres to the J-man”

With little experience of Christianity, i was struck by how false it all was. People who were supposed to be the ‘elders’ of the Union were laughing during the confession prayer at church with their feet up on the pews and T-shirts with cross nails on with the line “Body Piercing saved my life!” - how distasteful!

The worship is extremely false and does not praise God, more like it praises those who are the most flamboyant. It seemed a competition as to who could sing the loudest, dance the weirdest or faint as they were so ‘overcome’

I was really disappointed, i had the view that Christians were strong moralists with deep theological thought and worship who took things seriously - this was not what i wanted - i had a vague belief in Christ, but i wanted a religion that could support me through hard times and allow me to praise God - i didnt want a show.

Theologically this student CU was nothing. Small quotes from the bible but no-one knew anything else. Even simple questions about salvation were answered in black and white “Christians - Yes, everybody else Hell!!” Which left me confused as that meant my good, kind parents who simply aren’t religous are going to hell!?!? If i went any deeper, i got blank looks and then “Hey have you seen my new “GO FAITH!” t-shirt?” It was completely false and focused on the self as opposed to God I left, throughly disillusioned with Christianity. If it was all like that, i didnt want to know. It was like getting a coffee, at first the foams quite nice, but you need something underneath more fulfilling to keep you warm and satisfied, and thats what it didnt have.

About a week later i saw a priest in a cassock walk past my university looking very serious, i just about recognised him to be a Catholic priest, and it got me thinking about whether different denominations could be different (i couldnt imagine this guy dancing about). Could this be different? Might this be a source of staunch morality, good values and deep theological logic? I went in to the traditionalist church built in the late 18th century and what did i find?

That day i wrote in my diary. “Went into my first Catholic church today - possibly the holiest place i have been to in my life, so holy,i could almost touch it!”

It certainly was. Instead of pictures of our saviour with sunglasses on with “COOL!” underneath, there were statues of Mary and the Saints, little minichapels with prayers and areas for candles, and of course the crucifix standing out like a beacon to me. At that point a Mass started (im sure God intended it that way), i sat at the back and watched this holy ceremony take place quietly, solemnlyand taken completely seriously with complete dedication to Christ. It was beautiful, and ive never looked back since. A year on,. im discerning a call to the Jesuits, and Catholicism has changed my life in a way i could never dreamt possible.

How does this relate to this thread you ask? Yes i do seemed to have gotten carried away slightly and i apologise! What i am saying is that i am classed as part of the ‘youth’ and it is precisely this rock/modernist/all lights and no foundation culture that turned me away from Anglicanism and sent me into Cathoilicism. People will see through it, and the trust Catholic church that has remained unchanged for good and for bad is what people will turn to once again.