Understanding Catholic Marriage vs. Protestant "Saved"

[Smber2c]

I have a little bit of a problem understanding how a portion of the philosophy on annulments works and would appreciate assistance in making a differentiation between Catholic marriages and Protestant Salvation.

I do not believe in the notion that one can be “saved” at some point on Earth and from there on out no matter what goes on or what they choose still be assured that they are going to Heaven.

When I ask some of my Protestant friends what happened when a “saved” man becomes a murderer or devil worshiper or anything obviously not of God; they usually say “he only thought he was saved, but he really wasn’t.”

Of course, that then would make people wonder…am I really “saved” or do I just think that I am? How do they make sure?
Well, I don’t really know cause I don’t believe in the idea, but probably by living a life similar to what Catholic teaching instructs (trying to remain in a constant state of grace and seeing forgiveness when we mess up).

My problem is that sometimes marriage/annulments feel the same way. We make a commitment, but don’t ever know what the future holds and thus don’t know if we’ll keep making good decisions and stay committed to what we now claim.

I’m okay with a protestant not being able to ‘know’ he is saved, because I don’t believe in the idea. However, I do believe in marriages, thus I’m not okay with not ‘knowing’ that I am married (if/when I eventually get married).

Is there no way to make sure both parties are fully informed, etc…and take care of all the annulment reasons at the start of a marriage to create a “non-annulable” (aka. we’re sure it exists) marriage? Or are Catholic couples never absolutely sure that the marriage is real until it’s over?

Note: I’m not trying to say annulments are fake or wrong. But it often seems that if 2 people are fully informed, fully intending to commit to marriage, comitted to the faith, and carefully guided thru their engagement then there should be a means to ensure that a sacrament really does take place on the wedding day instead of 12 years later finding that 2 flesh wen’t actually made into one on that day.

 

[dylanschrader]

Marriages are presumed valid unless it is proved otherwise, so don’t worry about it. We also don’t have to worry about whether we were really baptized, really confirmed, whether the Eucharist was really confected, etc. unless there is a clear reason to think otherwise.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Is there no way to make sure both parties are fully informed, etc…and take care of all the annulment reasons at the start of a marriage to create a “non-annulable” (aka. we’re sure it exists) marriage?

Sure. Just ask any bitter person (often “ex”-Catholic) who’s petition has been denied.

tee

 

[Smber2c]

Marriages are presumed valid unless it is proved otherwise, so don’t worry about it.

I guess I could try to just ‘not worry about it’, but I really try to understand things as fully as I can. If I fully understand annulments (and I think I’m pretty close anyway), then I can teach about them to others. If I’ve got holes in my logic…how can I explain what I don’t get?

(and yes, I will have to teach this eventually. As a sibling and eventual spouse and parent I’ll need to share this with others at some point)

 

[jmcrae]

I guess I could try to just ‘not worry about it’, but I really try to understand things as fully as I can. If I fully understand annulments (and I think I’m pretty close anyway), then I can teach about them to others. If I’ve got holes in my logic…how can I explain what I don’t get?

One thing they tell us in our RCIA leadership training is that it is never up to a lay person to try to explain about annulments to others.

Always, always, always refer people who need real help to the Tribunal itself - to everyone else, simply say, “This is not my area of expertise,” and then change the subject. This is to avoid accidentally giving out any kind of misinformation.

Apparently, it takes years and years to really understand this stuff well enough to explain it - and then they hire you to be a member of the Tribunal.

(and yes, I will have to teach this eventually. As a sibling and eventual spouse and parent I’ll need to share this with others at some point)

No, you won’t. There is no situation in the Church where any lay person is ever required to explain anything about annulments.

If you went through the marriage prep, had a proper wedding in a Catholic Church, and are still married today, then you can be reasonably certain that you have a valid marriage. (Also, it is not a sin to think you are in a valid marriage and behave as if you were, should it turn out at some later date that you are not.)

If you have a serious reason to suspect that you are not in a valid marriage, contact your priest as soon as possible to clear up any issues, and to receive a validation of your marriage, if this turns out to be necessary.

 

[Smber2c]

No, you won’t. There is no situation in the Church where any lay person is ever required to explain anything about annulments.

I can respect the thnking that I am not any sort of expert on the topic. I can also accept that I’m never *required *to speak out on this issue.

But as many of my friends are protestant, and many of my Catholic friends are more likely to look to Dan Brown or Dear Abby before even going to our local priest. It seems referring dearly any of them to a member of a tribunal…would be utterly useless. They would just keep believing whatever stray thought they had been passed, and I stay silent knowing that an annulment isn’t “Catholic Divorce” or whatever false view they have?

 

[jmcrae]

I can respect the thnking that I am not any sort of expert on the topic. I can also accept that I’m never *required *to speak out on this issue.

But as many of my friends are protestant, and many of my Catholic friends are more likely to look to Dan Brown or Dear Abby before even going to our local priest. It seems referring dearly any of them to a member of a tribunal…would be utterly useless. They would just keep believing whatever stray thought they had been passed, and I stay silent knowing that an annulment isn’t “Catholic Divorce” or whatever false view they have?

A lot of these people are just gossips, and probably not interested in learning anything, anyway.

If they have any real questions, and they’re actually asking you, point them to the Catechism section on the Sacrament of Marriage. And if they want to straighten something out in their lives, point them to their nearest Marriage Tribunal.

That’s the best we can do - we are not required to correct people who are obstinate in their ignorance, especially when we’re not completely sure of what we’re talking about.

PS: One reason that all of this misinformation is floating around out there is because of lay people discussing the subject without knowing what they were talking about. That’s why the Tribunal asks us as a favour to them to change the subject if it arises in conversation, rather than try to give our take on it.

 

[dylanschrader]

I guess I could try to just ‘not worry about it’, but I really try to understand things as fully as I can. If I fully understand annulments (and I think I’m pretty close anyway), then I can teach about them to others. If I’ve got holes in my logic…how can I explain what I don’t get?

(and yes, I will have to teach this eventually. As a sibling and eventual spouse and parent I’ll need to share this with others at some point)

I meant don’t worry after the fact about whether a particular marriage was really valid or not unless there is some evidence that it was not.

Obviously, try to understand the truth of how the sacraments work.

 

[otjm]

While the advice of not getting into the technicalities of annulments is good advice, it should not be taken to the point of avoiding the issue altogether. There are legitimate questions that deserve an answer, and the questions may come from Catholics or non-Catholics.

As to the question of the OP about “Is there no way to make sure that the parties are fully informed”, the short answer is no. It is a bit analogus to saying that if someone is fully informed about Christ, would they no longer sin? A few saints might have managed it, but I truly don’t recall, other than Mary, the Church holding out anyone else as an example of one who never sinned. Well, maybe John the Baptist, but I am not sure that is officially held.

Dealing with two people - or at least one - who is in love is to walk in on a form of insanity. Most people get married on a tremendous flood of emotion. That is not to say that some, or even many, do not have their head at least partially screwed on straight. But people make committments for reasons they cannot explain, and they profess not to understand (and I generally believe they are telling the truth).

Who is it that is going to determine the emotional stability and maturity of either, let alone both of the parties? If you ask them and they tell you that they truly and really accept all the Church has to say about marriage, who is to determine that they are telling the truth? Even with psychological testing, something that is never going to be absolutely foolproof, no one is going to come out as absolutely perfect; how far off the scale does someone have to be before the marriage is refused?

To presume that it is a matter of information is to, at least to a degree, misunderstand the grounds of nullity.

And while we are at it, the Church presumes the validity of the marriage. It does not guarantee the valididty of the marriage. Which means, there may be any number of couples living together under the presumption, who are not in a sacramental relationship. Just a thought.