Understanding Dishonesty and Deceit in Islam

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What is your purpose of coming to these forums?

You admit you are not catholic. It seems that you only come here to post links to these garbage articles.

Is it because the answeringislam.org team feels there were too many Muslims on this Catholic site, and therefore, wanted to send you guys out here to post these links and try to waste our time?

I did actually enjoy these forums up until a month ago, until about four or five of you (admittingly NON-Catholics) came here and started posting all this propoganda garbage from answeringislam.org. Why not go post this on your forum insteading of wasting everyone’s time and taking away from the opportunity of real discussions.

I, as a Muslim, will NOT be pulled into replying to your garbage link articles, as they have ALL already been replied to, and SURELY, you are aware of the replies.

So do you want a LINK WAR? Do you think that benefits the people?

Should you post links to articles, and then I post the links to the replies to your articles? I mean, how does this benefit anyone?

This is a DISCUSSION FORUM started to allow users to discuss religions. You haters come here and ruin the opportunity for civilized Catholics and Muslims to discuss issues. Many posters (I always thing of you George!) really do have nice questions and would appreciate nice answers. But you guys coming here and flooding the boards with your links to stupid articles, ALL of which have been answered, TAKES AWAY FROM THE VERY PURPOSE OF THIS BOARD. Muslims must always defend their religion, and when you post all these articles, many Muslims, who may not be aware of your agenda and propoganda, end up spending countless hours replying to you, WHEN YOU DO NOT EVEN CARE, as opposed to answering those sincere individuals who really come here to discuss.

I wish the moderators could be easily convinced to ban users such as yourselves, but really, as you have all proven already (again, admittingly), you simply pick another username and come back with your same ol stuff.

Why ruin these boards?
 
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jcaz:
I wish the moderators could be easily convinced to ban users such as yourselves, but really, as you have all proven already (again, admittingly), you simply pick another username and come back with your same ol stuff.

Why ruin these boards?
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The best thing to do is ignore them. I wouldn’t worry about it anyway, because “garbage links” wouldn’t have any affect on truly objective people in the first place. The ones who DO take them seriously, their position was never in question to begin with.
 
I think Joel is also a member here, so I don’t see why any of the people cannot link his articles here.
There are many people, like Deen, and R. Gonzales, Rodrigo Bivar, and many other people who give links to inform, to support their scholarly debate or opinion. And I don’t see anything wrong in it.
Discussion means sharing ideas. And it’s agains the regulation of this forum to paste Full Article and also the limitation of character in this forum makes putting on links one way to overcome this.
This Sub Forum is meant for NON Catholic, so I don’t see why you ar so upset with the situation, CJaz. If you think what Diciple has mentioned is not correct, you can refute it and you can give also the links.
That’s my opinion.
 
Ruin these board? Not a single thread whether made by Christians or Muslims on this forum are meaningless. Please ad hominem attack is no longer popular…
 
Very briefly: One, yes I am a member here (though with very little time to wrangle on the many issues discussed), and two, no Muslim has yet replied to my book in any substantial manner - apart from R. Gonzles very helpful correction on one small point. The book has only been online for a few months. Thus, before calling it garbage, I would encourage a fair reading. “He who answers a matter before he hears it, it is his folly and shame” Robert Spencer, (a Catholic) has endorsed the book. His endorsement will be on the front cover. While I presently do attend a non-denominational church, I was raised Catholic and am technically a Catholic. Where one attends church is usually based on several factors such as relationships, spouses preferences etc etc etc. Theologically, I am both in favor of evangelicalism and also very much in favor of Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy as well. This may sound falky but it is where I stand presently. In fact, I have been in dialogue with a wonderful sister (a Catholic nun of twenty three years) who is desiring for the vatican to review my work. She is also presently writing a novel which casts in story form my theological premises.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionemlibera nos a malo. Amen.

Blessings,

Joel
 
I am still learning about myself!! I am certainly a bad Muslim; because if I was a good one, I should be a liar, a deceiver and dishonest!

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Joseph,

As the author of the chapter discussed, I can assure you that (if you read the chapter) I never accuse Muslims themselves of being deceptive people. If fact, here IS what I do say:

When a Christian wishes to teach others about Christianity, it is simply understood that honesty will be an essential aspect of that sharing. In Islam however, most westerners have a hard time relating to the fact that purposeful exaggerations, covering of the truth and occasionally – outright-deliberate lying is a core part of the religion of Islam.

There are actually specific doctrines and traditions that foster a culture of dishonesty within Islam. Now, of course, there are some verses and traditions in Islam that discourage lying:

And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is). -Surah 2:42 (Yusuf Ali)

But unfortunately, as we are about to see, for many Muslims, it is the exceptions to the rule that have actually become the rule itself.

Instead I simply review certain hadith and the quotes of various Muslim scholars etc. My conclusion is that Islam (as a result of these various hadith etc, tends to create a culture where dishonesty toward the kaffir is acceptable). I have plenty of Muslim friends, and when I ask them about the idea of trickery when discussing religion, they almost universally give me that knowing sort of guilty smile. “No No!, you know that isn’t true.” they say with that half smile, half smirk. To try to make this out as if I am accusing all Muslim of lying is actually tricky in itself. Personally, I am far more open to discussing “truth” with a Muslim who is willing to admit that many (not all) Muslims do indeed use trickery when talking about religion with the kaffir and then says something to the effect that they will be honest with me however. A perfect example is the all too common cliche that (how many Muslims have you heard say) that Islam means “peace” or that Jihad, simply means “overcoming adversity”. These type of statements are blatantly not true, or at best only partial truths used to fool the hearer. If you cannot admit this then I know where you stand. 🙂

Bless You,

Joel
 
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JoelRichardson:
Joseph,

As the author of the chapter discussed, I can assure you that (if you read the chapter) I never accuse Muslims themselves of being deceptive people. If fact, here IS what I do say:

When a Christian wishes to teach others about Christianity, it is simply understood that honesty will be an essential aspect of that sharing. In Islam however, most westerners have a hard time relating to the fact that purposeful exaggerations, covering of the truth and occasionally – outright-deliberate lying is a core part of the religion of Islam.

There are actually specific doctrines and traditions that foster a culture of dishonesty within Islam. Now, of course, there are some verses and traditions in Islam that discourage lying:

And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is). -Surah 2:42 (Yusuf Ali)

But unfortunately, as we are about to see, for many Muslims, it is the exceptions to the rule that have actually become the rule itself.

Instead I simply review certain hadith and the quotes of various Muslim scholars etc. My conclusion is that Islam (as a result of these various hadith etc, tends to create a culture where dishonesty toward the kaffir is acceptable). I have plenty of Muslim friends, and when I ask them about the idea of trickery when discussing religion, they almost universally give me that knowing sort of guilty smile. “No No!, you know that isn’t true.” they say with that half smile, half smirk. To try to make this out as if I am accusing all Muslim of lying is actually tricky in itself. Personally, I am far more open to discussing “truth” with a Muslim who is willing to admit that many (not all) Muslims do indeed use trickery when talking about religion with the kaffir and then says something to the effect that they will be honest with me however. A perfect example is the all too common cliche that (how many Muslims have you heard say) that Islam means “peace” or that Jihad, simply means “overcoming adversity”. These type of statements are blatantly not true, or at best only partial truths used to fool the hearer. If you cannot admit this then I know where you stand. 🙂

Bless You,

Joel
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I took a class once, it was basically Islam 101. I was just starting to really practice. I was used to joking around, exaggerating certain things,.just for fun. From the class I learned that we should not lie, even while joking. It took me a while to get used to it, and sometimes i mess up now and then. But I do remember that i thought it was really extreme…during hte entire class i was thinking “whattt…are you serious?! thats not lying!!..”

But when someone comes along and says “Muslims can say dishonest things to people to convince them of this and this” …i’m shocked. Honestly, i am. That class made me consious of every single word that came out of my mouth.

The examples that you presented are of Muslims who may not understand the meanings of the words they are trying to define and/or want to make it look nice for others. Everyone, regardless of religion, does this. It is not Islamic, from my point of view, as I dont believe that we should be on the defensive when it comes to our religion. I believe that Islam is the truth. Who care about the pleasure of people if the pleasure of their Creator is not fullfilled.
 
Salaam Brother Joel;
For a sincere Muslim, there is a strong belief that guidance comes solely from Allah (SWT). I would be in complete contradiction with that belief If I as a Muslim use dishonesty or lies to try to drag you to Islam, because lying and dishonesty from my part would mean that I believe that it is me who will guide you through my lies and dishonesty, which amounts to blasphemy!

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said that a Muslim can be a miserly, a coward, but can never a liar.

Brother Joel;
The following verses may not tell you something, but for a Muslim they are heavy with teachings.

“The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)”. (Qur’an 042.013)

“Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal” (Qur’an 042.015)

Brother Joel;
If the intend of your book (apart from earning easy cash) is to put suspicion into the minds of your co-religionists as to the trustworthiness of Muslims, then you may succeed with those who do not have the courage to question their beliefs, but you will never succeed with truth seekers.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Joseph, et al,

I still think that you have greatly misunderstood what I have written. You feel as though I am directing my comments toward you personally. I am not and I commend you for being honest people. Most people who sincerely are attempting to follow God are honest. That was my point exactly. Yet far too many Muslims use trickery and exaggerations when discussing Islam with other non-believers (kaffir - a dirty word). I met a nice fellow just the other day who assured me (He didn’t know that I knew othrwise) that all Muslims read the Bible and the Quran side by side, for they are all the Word of God. Its this kind of stuff that I am warning people against.

And as far as making an easy buck, you obviously have never written a book. People who wish to loose money write books and buy lottery tickets. And they certainly do not put it on the internet for free. 🙂

Bless you,

Joel
 
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