Understanding each other for Christ's sake...

[2nd_Adam]

I’m going to guess that you mean by “mission field” something like those people whom I would likely categorize as not yet converted to Christ. If so, I would not class a Protestant in that category. (I am not talking about someone who had Protestant parents but never believed, etc. Also, “Protestant” is sometimes a vague category, and I am agreeing for the sake of the thread to lump them.) So, I do not consider a Protestant in the same category as the other three.

As a clarification, although I often call myself a convert to Catholicism from Methodism, I do not actually consider myself to be such. I only call myself a convert by standard English, since that is how I will be understood. But, in another sense I am a convert and still am, since I feel I am called continuously to leave aside the old things and put on the new man. I still need to be more renewed in my mind, imitating God. So, in a way I am always converting. I currently do not deny myself and take up my cross daily all that well…

But when I use the word “mission”, it has a broader scope. All the baptized share in certain things, like priest, prophet, and king. Those fall under “mission” for me. So as a “prophet”, even to other Catholics/Christians I must witness to Christ, perhaps to say what he has done for me or, more often, to *live *as a Christian. That is part of mission. God has plans for me every day. I don’t think you meant to discuss “mission” this way, given the context.

Do you think you were born from above in the Methodist Church?

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is where I believe the Catholic Church is wrong. I have no idea how the Catholic Church can say that Muslims, Hindus, Athesists, and other non-believers can be united to Christ. It seems you agree with the official Catholic teaching on non-Christians by your post. It’s not that my view is too small of God. My view is according to the revealed will of God. Christ and Him crucified is what unites us to Christ.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - Jesus

Jesus Is Equal with God

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The Authority of the Son

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
**
Witnesses to Jesus**

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?” - John

Here is a thread of a struggling Catholic on Islam and the Catholic view.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=389193

 

[AmateurPianist]

I wish to reiterate that the bolded words are not mine, but St. Pius IX’s.

You are the one that started in the Traditional Catholic forum the thread titled ‘The closer I get to the church the more I despise Protestants’ or something close to that, as I recall.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I think that is tweety’s way of saying “well, the Pope is wrong, and if you agree with him, you are wrong too, but God bless y’all anyhow”.

TweetyMom is a sweetheart. If more Catholics were like her, your faith actually might be attractive to me.

However, from what I see on these boards, your faith predominantly is the type to attack TweetyMom. Too bad.

 

[AmateurPianist]

In keeping with the Spirit of this thread.

I appreciate how Catholics and Evangelical Protestants agree on moral theology about 99% of the way.

This is important to me anyway, because I think I can make a pretty convincing Scriptural case that having the right moral theology is much more important than the stuff we spend bandwidth debating here.

When I read the best Catholic authors, like those of Evangelicals and Catholics together and some apologists like Jimmy Akin, I get the impression that the gaps on other theological issues are not as big as made out to be.

However when I read some amateur Catholic apologists here, I get other impressions.

But I will assume for now that the Catholic authors and writers that I actually like are more representative of Catholicism than some amateur Catholic apologists here who like spouting forth venom.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are the one that started in the Traditional Catholic forum the thread titled ‘The closer I get to the church the more I despise Protestants’ or something close to that, as I recall.

You have the wrong person. I only post on the non-Catholic religion section.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by nsper7
I wish to reiterate that the bolded words are not mine, but St. Pius IX’s.

You are the one that started in the Traditional Catholic forum the thread titled ‘The closer I get to the church the more I despise Protestants’ or something close to that, as I recall.

Thanks for the info… that’s very insightful!

How do we personally measure up with this biblical revelation?

The New Commandment
7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. 8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because [1] the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. 9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him [2] there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I think I quoted Nsper7 in that thread. Yeah, I know it wasn’t 2nd Adam that started that particularly noxious thread.

 

[2nd_Adam]

TweetyMom is a sweetheart. If more Catholics were like her, your faith actually might be attractive to me.

However, from what I see on these boards, your faith predominantly is the type to attack TweetyMom. Too bad.

TweetyMom is a true Christian who is my dear sister in Christ!!!

 

[nsper7]

You are the one that started in the Traditional Catholic forum the thread titled ‘The closer I get to the church the more I despise Protestants’ or something close to that, as I recall.

TweetyMom is a sweetheart. If more Catholics were like her, your faith actually might be attractive to me.

However, from what I see on these boards, your faith predominantly is the type to attack TweetyMom. Too bad.

I believe what I said was the closer I grow the Church, the more I despise Protestantism’ and explained what I meant as well.

AP, the Catholic Church is not a used car I’m trying to sell where I’m going to try and make it seem ‘attractive’ to you so you’ll buy. Now, the Catholic Church is the Truth which you can either accept or reject.

 

[crazzeto]

I think Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians have great difficulties understanding each other, in what we believe as Christians. We need to make an effort to hear each other as fellow Christians. I believe you will find that we have much more in common then you realize. This is a thread to help each other learn about what each other actually believes in regards to the Christian Faith. Our doctrinal distinctives are very important, but it should not divide us in a hostile way. We are called to love one another, in spite of our doctrinal distinctives. What belief do we need clarity on? The motive here is to help us see each other as fellow Christians… so we can grow in our affection and love for God.

Well understanding is one thing, the problem is even once understanding is obtained we have the issue that there can only be a single, objective truth of God. But I greatly appriciate the sentament, and if it means anything to you even though I find Protistant theology in error (of scripture to start with), I still view Protistants as my brothers in Christ. When push comes I am your keeper, I will defend any Christian that finds them selves, say, under attack in some random forum from say, Atheists… Just one example.

 

[nsper7]

Well understanding is one thing, the problem is even once understanding is obtained we have the issue that there can only be a single, objective truth of God. But I greatly appriciate the sentament, and if it means anything to you even though I find Protistant theology in error (of scripture to start with), I still view Protistants as my brothers in Christ. When push comes I am your keeper, I will defend any Christian that finds them selves, say, under attack in some random forum from say, Atheists… Just one example.

I must also add that although the theology and doctrine (and even the actions and history) of Protestantism, please notice I do not seek to judge their Salvation or whether they are Christian or not. If they are validly Baptized (Trinitarian formula, water, intent), then they are connected to the Catholic Church, albeit imperfectly. While, technically they are our brothers and sisters in Christ, we should not use that as an excuse to gloss over or minimize differences.

Remember that Truth (doctrine) should make no room and give no victories to falsehood (doctrine). We are discussing doctrine and ideas here, not individuals.

 

[crazzeto]

I must also add that although the theology and doctrine (and even the actions and history) of Protestantism, please notice I do not seek to judge their Salvation or whether they are Christian or not. If they are validly Baptized (Trinitarian formula, water, intent), then they are connected to the Catholic Church, albeit imperfectly. While, technically they are our brothers and sisters in Christ, we should not use that as an excuse to gloss over or minimize differences.

Remember that Truth (doctrine) should make no room and give no victories to falsehood (doctrine). We are discussing doctrine and ideas here, not individuals.

Fully agreed here, and you’ll never catch me not acknowleging that we Catholics have varying degrees of doctrinal difference (depens upon the particular protistant), and that in those cases where we disagree, the Church (Catholic) isn’t always right. The Church (Catholic) offers the fullness of the truth of Christ. Protistant theology at best offers only part of the truth of Christ, and at worst intermixes it with error.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I must also add that although the theology and doctrine (and even the actions and history) of Protestantism, please notice I do not seek to judge their Salvation or whether they are Christian or not. If they are validly Baptized (Trinitarian formula, water, intent), then they are connected to the Catholic Church, albeit imperfectly. While, technically they are our brothers and sisters in Christ, we should not use that as an excuse to gloss over or minimize differences.

Remember that Truth (doctrine) should make no room and give no victories to falsehood (doctrine). We are discussing doctrine and ideas here, not individuals.

There is great tension on both sides. Protestants can call for unity with Catholics, but cannot sell out the Protestant Reformers, a forensic justification through imputation, and penal substitution which are essential doctrines from my perspective. However, we need to at least attempt to unify the body of Christ. I believe that is the purpose of ECT 1 and ECT II, acknowledging our differences and unity. It’s a juggling act which we must attempt to do. :juggle::juggle::juggle:

 

[crazzeto]

There is great tension on both sides. Protestants can call for unity with Catholics, but cannot sell out the Protestant Reformers, a forensic justification through imputation, and penal substitution which are essential doctrines from my perspective. However, we need to at least attempt to unify the body of Christ. I believe that is the purpose of ECT 1 and ECT II, acknowledging our differences and unity. It’s a juggling act which we must attempt to do. :juggle::juggle::juggle:

That’s a great sentament, and it is shared by Catholics and in particular the current Bishop of Rome. In order to accomplish this though, we must come into full communion (as what is happening with many Anglicans). The Church is not spirit only, it is rather the Pillar and Bulwark of the truth. Spirit & Body, if we are to come together, truely as scripture says we should… Then we must be in full communion.

 

[nsper7]

There is great tension on both sides. Protestants can call for unity with Catholics, but cannot sell out the Protestant Reformers, a forensic justification through imputation, and penal substitution which are essential doctrines from my perspective. However, we need to at least attempt to unify the body of Christ. I believe that is the purpose of ECT 1 and ECT II, acknowledging our differences and unity. It’s a juggling act which we must attempt to do. :juggle::juggle::juggle:

Well, the same tension holds true for Catholics. We want unity with Protestants–by this, I mean we want Protestants to enter into full communion with the Bishop of Rome and accept the fullness of Truth found in the Catholic Church–but we (or at least I) are not willing to sell out our doctrine and our teachings.

In the end, there can be no meaningful unity until Protestants acknowledge that the so-called “Reformation” was a tragedy of humongous theological dimensions and are willing to return to the Church. Now, Protestants might respond that there can be no meaningful unity until Catholics become Protestants, but, even stepping outside of theology and history, this fails logically because even if the Catholic Church collapsed and every Catholic became Protestant, there would be the question of what kind of Protestants (i.e. Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, one of thousands of Non-Denominational denominations) and what sect within a given Protestant “denomination” (i.e. ELCA vs. LCMS, PCUSA vs. PCA, etc. and the list goes on).

 

[2nd_Adam]

That’s a great sentament, and it is shared by Catholics and in particular the current Bishop of Rome. In order to accomplish this though, we must come into full communion (as what is happening with many Anglicans). The Church is not spirit only, it is rather the Pillar and Bulwark of the truth. Spirit & Body, if we are to come together, truely as scripture says we should… Then we must be in full communion.

That’s not a compromise. In those terms, you will eliminate Protestantism which will never happen on this side of glory. ECT 1 and ECT II never called for a submission to the Bishop of Rome as their vicar.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Well, the same tension holds true for Catholics. We want unity with Protestants–by this, I mean we want Protestants to enter into full communion with the Bishop of Rome and accept the fullness of Truth found in the Catholic Church–but we (or at least I) are not willing to sell out our doctrine and our teachings.

In the end, there can be no meaningful unity until Protestants acknowledge that the so-called “Reformation” was a tragedy of humongous theological dimensions and are willing to return to the Church. Now, Protestants might respond that there can be no meaningful unity until Catholics become Protestants, but, even stepping outside of theology and history, this fails logically because even if the Catholic Church collapsed and every Catholic became Protestant, there would be the question of what kind of Protestants (i.e. Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, one of thousands of Non-Denominational denominations) and what sect within a given Protestant “denomination” (i.e. ELCA vs. LCMS, PCUSA vs. PCA, etc. and the list goes on).

That will never happen. The Protestant Reformation was through divine providence according to the will of God, and His glorious gospel. Happy Reformation Day brother (Oct 31) in advance!

http://www.heritagebaptist-church.org/images/95Theses.jpg
By the will of God, Reformation Day happened!

 

[nsper7]

That will never happen. The Protestant Reformation was through divine providence according to the will of God, and His glorious gospel. Happy Reformation Day brother (Oct 31) in advance!

So says you…

It’s funny that Reformation Day and Halloween fall on the same day.

 

[crazzeto]

That’s not a compromise. In those terms, you will eliminate Protestantism which will never happen on this side of glory. ECT 1 and ECT II never called for a submission to the Bishop of Rome as their vicar.

The objective truth of God is something which can not be compramised on. There is no compramise, not due to any hard hearted sentament on our part, there is no compramise simply because God is the truth. The truth of God is what the CC teaches, this is the truth found in the inerrant word of God, both written in Sacrade Scripture and in Sacrade Tradition.

We are not God, we can not change the truth of God. All we can do is alter our selves to closely (as possible) conform to the truth of God.