Understanding free will in light of God's sovereignty

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Debating a Calvinist friend of mine and he says that God can override our free will and he did it all the time in the Bible. I said that He wouldn’t violate our free will, but then he quoted Daniel 4 where King Nebuchadnezzar was turned into a beast, it says that his sanity or reason was restored. Meaning God took his free will away and restored it. I am sure this was because he disobeyed God. I mean I am sure God can take away our free will and has with this example, but this is not something He normally does, no?

But then there are the passages such as “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes” (Prov. 21:1).

“The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps” (Prov. 16:9).

There are countless others. Point is, how do we reconcile us having free will and God fulfilling His will on Earth? I mean He doesn’t just sit back and say, aw shucks, I was going to do such and such, but X person foiled it.
 
AugustineFanNYC said:
Debating a Calvinist friend of mine and he says that God can override our free will and he did it all the time in the Bible. I said that He wouldn’t violate our free will, but then he quoted Daniel 4 where King Nebuchadnezzar was turned into a beast, it says that his sanity or reason was restored. Meaning God took his free will away and restored it. I am sure this was because he disobeyed God. I mean I am sure God can take away our free will and has with this example, but this is not something He normally does, no?

But then there are the passages such as “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes” (Prov. 21:1).

“The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps” (Prov. 16:9).

There are countless others. Point is, how do we reconcile us having free will and God fulfilling His will on Earth? I mean He doesn’t just sit back and say, aw shucks, I was going to do such and such, but X person foiled it.
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Saint Thomas Aquinas:
Summa Theologiae Iª q. 23 a. 5 arg. 3
Objection 3. Further, “There is no injustice in God” (Romans 9:14). Now it would seem unjust that unequal things be given to equals. But all men are equal as regards both nature and original sin; and inequality in them arises from the merits or demerits of their actions. Therefore God does not prepare unequal things for men by predestinating and reprobating, unless through the foreknowledge of their merits and demerits.
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There are two primary concepts of free will: Libertarian and Compatibilist.

Your Calvinist friend is seeing free will in a Libertarian context. This states that free will is only exercised when we act wholly under our own will without outside influence guiding our actions. If the Bible is viewed in this context, yes, our free will is over-ridden through God’s influence. In this context, any act of faith is not done under free will, as the grace given us by God motivates our will to believe.

Catholics believe in a Compatibilist view of free will. This states that an action is done through free will when we choose to act according to our natures. In this sense man can only act in accordance with God’s will for our lives, as he is the one who created and shapes our natures. God’s grace shapes our natures, making us more conformed to Christ. As such, as God gives us grace, we our natures impel us to enact our free will in more perfect conformance to His will for us. This is the light in which Proverbs must be read. Man acts, but God’s grace is there behind the act guiding it. So too in Exodus, when God ‘hardened Pharaoh’s heart’. He did not force Pharaoh to do evil. God created Pharaoh and gave Pharaoh the opportunity to do good. He refused and as such, God did not give him more grace. Thus, his nature did not conform to God’s will, only his own.
 
I want to be a bird and fly away. But I can’t. Is God violating my free will?
 
@AugustineFanNYC

no, God doesn’t override our free will but rather, he shows us a better way, King Nebuchadnezzar was turned into a beast,because of his pride,he thought, he has established everything,it was his folly, it says that his sanity or reason was restored, its because of god’s loving mercy.

_Rev 3:20 20 Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me._Jesus is a perfect gentleman,he will never interfere in our free will or privacy, he respects our decisions.

God has a better plan for our souls than we have

Jeremiah 29:11 For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 See, this alone I found, that God made human beings straightforward, but they have devised many schemes. we humans messed it up ,so only god has to do thing for us again. Romans 8:28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

Psalm 124:1 If it had not been the Lord who was on our side —let Israel now say—
2 if it had not been the Lord who was on our side, when our enemies attacked us,3 then they would have swallowed us up alive, when their anger was kindled against us;4 then the flood would have swept us away, the torrent would have gone over us;5 then over us would have gone the raging waters.6 Blessed be the Lord,who has not given us as prey to their teeth.7 We have escaped like a bird from the snare of the fowlers;the snare is broken,and we have escaped.8 Our help is in the name of the Lord,who made heaven and earth.
 
Francis said:
no, God doesn’t override our free will but rather, he shows us a better way, King Nebuchadnezzar was turned into a beast,because of his pride,he thought, he has established everything,it was his folly, it says that his sanity or reason was restored, its because of god’s loving mercy.
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But God punished him by taking his reason away, ergo taking away any ability to make a rational choice. He took away his free will. Of course this was just a punishment. I am thinking God CAN override our free will, just chooses not to. Perhaps this was a way in which to show that His will is sovereign, and that He can completely succumb us over to His will, but instead shows mercy. Probably what happened with the King was a display of power?

I agree with everything else you said though. Although, I don’t know if I’d put it the language I’ve heard Arminians put it, that he is such a “gentleman” that men can override His will. I mean God doesn’t have a Plan B. He doesn’t force His will upon us like puppets, but he does close doors, open new ones, put things in our way, heck He knocked Paul off his horse and blinded him! He gets what He wants!
 
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that’s god love for us other wise, we will keep on sinning and loose our own souls if god doesn’t intervene in our lives time to time as said in John 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. James 4:5 Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, “ God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”?

James 1:12 Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. 13 No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. 14 But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it; 15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved.

Wisdom 12 ;1 For your immortal spirit is in all things.2 Therefore you correct little by little those who trespass,and you remind and warn them of the things through which they sin,so that they may be freed from wickedness and put their trust in you, O Lord. 10 But judging them little by little you gave them an opportunity to repent,though you were not unaware that their origin was evil and their wickedness inborn,and that their way of thinking would never change.11 For they were an accursed race from the beginning,and it was not through fear of anyone that you left them unpunished for their sins. 19 Through such works you have taught your people that the righteous
must be kind,and you have filled your children with good hope,because you give repentance for sins.
20 For if you punished with such great care and indulgence the enemies of your servants and those deserving of death,granting them time and opportunity to give up their wickedness,21 with what strictness you have judged your children,to whose ancestors you gave oaths and covenants full of good promises! 22 So while chastening us you scourge our enemies ten thousand times more,
so that, when we judge, we may meditate upon your goodness,and when we are judged, we may expect mercy.
 
I can’t speak of things I know nothing of and so I’d say that we are guided and given choices and therefore have the chances to follow our spirtual aspirations …or not.

When a child is free to choose whose company it keeps but comes to me of its own free will I am overjoyed, and I’m sure The Father would be too.
 
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the winegrower. 2 He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. 3 You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

Philippians 2: 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness.And being found in human form,8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross.

Hebrews 5:1 Every high priest chosen from among mortals is put in charge of things pertaining to God on their behalf, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is subject to weakness; 3 and because of this he must offer sacrifice for his own sins as well as for those of the people. 4 And one does not presume to take this honor, but takes it only when called by God, just as Aaron was.

5 So also Christ did not glorify himself in becoming a high priest, but was appointed by the one who said to him,

“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;

6 as he says also in another place,

“You are a priest forever,
according to the order of Melchizedek.”

7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; 9 and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, 10 having been designated by God a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

so Jesus also surrendered his will to the Father or rather confirmed his to the father’s will because its perfect ,as Mother Mary did LK 1:38
 
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Francis said:
so Jesus also surrendered his will to the Father or rather confirmed his to the father’s will because its perfect ,as Mother Mary did LK 1:38
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Yes, but Jesus would not have surrendered His will to man. God the Father, would never surrender His will to man. I believe what Lee wrote above was pretty much spot on. We are like children, and He really is like a Father. In fact I think Abba, when translated correctly is akin to ‘dad’, a much more intimate relation than just father. This means that children are free to do as they wish but a wise father steers them in the right direction.

Jesus said to Pilate, I believe, that all that is happening to Him is because He allows it. In Matthew He says, do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

In essence Jesus never surrendered His will to men that wanted to kill him, but to God who wanted this chain of events to occur.
 
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Thanks for sharing. I always thought compatibilism expressed my view best but I didn’t know if it was theologically sound.
 
AugustineFanNYC said:
God the Father, would never surrender His will to man.
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He has done it once for Adam and Eve we humans we messed it up ,not again,yes i agree with you he is our loving father he knows what is best for us,

Freedom of Choice​

Sirach 15:11 Do not say, “It was the Lord’s doing that I fell away”;for he does not do what he hates.
12 Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”;for he has no need of the sinful.13 The Lord hates all abominations;such things are not loved by those who fear him14 It was he who created humankind in the beginning,and he left them in the power of their own free choice.15 If you choose, you can keep the commandments,and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.16 He has placed before you fire and water;stretch out your hand for whichever you choose17 Before each person are life and death,and whichever one chooses will be given.18 For great is the wisdom of the Lord;he is mighty in power and sees everything;19 his eyes are on those who fear him,and he knows every human action.20 He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,and he has not given anyone permission to sin.

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O Lord, that the way of human beings is not in their control, that mortals as they walk cannot direct their steps.24 Correct me, O Lord, but in just measure; not in your anger, or you will bring me to nothing.
 
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Francis said:
He has done it once for Adam and Eve we humans we messed it up ,not again,yes i agree with you he is our loving father he knows what is best for us,
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I was under the impression God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and allowed it to happen. He wasn’t surprised by it and thought oh man I had other plans for you Adam, you’ve foiled me. Now I have to come up with a plan B.
 
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yea gen 3:15 the father has many backup plans,and an opportunity for sending us a his son an expression of his love for us in Jn 3:16 ,i like the video of my father’s love letter!

 
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I don’t know Francis, that sounds as though man can override God’s will. God is sovereign. He does as He wills. I don’t know if He has “backup plans”. Why would an omnipotent God have back up plans? He knows the ending.
 
what i mean here is, even though we sinned, as god has given them free will to choose from good or evil ,but god intervened and sent his son Jesus to save us.
 
AugustineFanNYC said:
Debating a Calvinist friend of mine and he says that God can override our free will and he did it all the time in the Bible.
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If free will can be overridden by another source, (God for example,) then free will is no longer free in that case.

Consider the following example(s) Why God's Foreknowledge Doesn't Negate Free Will | Catholic Answers

And If I pray for a person to return to the Church, will God intervene, taking away the person’s free will? | Catholic Answers
 
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Yes, there are other scriptural passages such as in St Paul ‘it is God who worketh in you both to will and to accomplish for his good pleasure’; ‘In Him we live, and move, and have our being’; ‘thou has wrought all our works in us’ (Isaiah 26:12). And in general, the history of the Israelites in the Old Testament where God told them that if they keep his commandments and Law they would live in peace in the promised land and not be overcome by their enemies or surrounding nations but which because they didn’t keep his commandments they were overcome by their enemies and sent off to exile.

The CCC#308 says ‘The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes’. Human free will acts are not outside the scope of Divine Providence, in fact, nothing is. Without God’s causality, no second cause can cause anything, much less continue in existence without God. So, God is the first cause of our free will acts for anything that passes from potentiality to act such as not willing something to willing something must be reduced to act by something in act. We need God to will anything as the First Mover and first efficient cause. St Thomas Aquinas explains:

‘God moves man’s will, as the Universal Mover, to the universal object of the will, which is good. And without this universal motion, man cannot will anything. But man determines himself by his reason to will this or that, which is true or apparent good. Nevertheless, sometimes God moves some specially to the willing of something determinate, which is good; as in the case of those whom He moves by grace, as we shall state later on’ (ST, P. I-II, Q. 9, art. 6, reply to obj. 3).

In a word, human free will acts and choices, good or evil, depend on God’s causality as the first cause and the universal first mover.
 
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