Understanding free will in light of God's sovereignty

[AugustineFanNYC]

Can someone please recommend a good book or lectures on the subject of Calvinism and how it differs from the Catholic perspective on predestination and grace, etc.

Also, any books on St. Augustine’s views contrasted with Calvinism. Calvinists love to tout St Augustine as one of their own but I think that while their views somewhat coincide, Calvinists take Augustinian views much too far to the point of heresy.

Last, why does the Catholic Church not stress the doctrines of predestination and such? For the most part, Protestants think that the Catholic Church is the mother of all pelagian churches and avoid it. I know I did. There are so many former Protestants such as myself who felt trapped by Calvinism, but didn’t know where to turn because every other church was “Arminian” by comparison.

 

[Robert1111]

Saint Thomas Aquinas:
Summa Theologiae Iª q. 23 a. 5 arg. 3

Objection 3. Further, “There is no injustice in God” (Romans 9:14). Now it would seem unjust that unequal things be given to equals. But all men are equal as regards both nature and original sin; and inequality in them arises from the merits or demerits of their actions. Therefore God does not prepare unequal things for men by predestinating and reprobating, unless through the foreknowledge of their merits and demerits.

Saint Thomas Aquinas:
Summa Theologiae Iª q. 23 a. 5 arg. 3

Objection 3. Further, “There is no injustice in God” (Romans 9:14). Now it would seem unjust that unequal things be given to equals. But all men are equal as regards both nature and original sin; and inequality in them arises from the merits or demerits of their actions. Therefore God does not prepare unequal things for men by predestinating and reprobating, unless through the foreknowledge of their merits and demerits.

This is a quote taken out of context. Thomas was quoting an OBJECTION made by others in order to REFUTE it, since he believed exactly the contrary of what is stated in Vico’s quotation.

I suggest everyone to control the source http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

The objections are precisely meant to be refuted by Saint Thomas.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

Has anyone heard of St. Francis de Sales? He specifically went to a French town in order to help the townspeople move away from Calvinism. The book he wrote was The Catholic Controversies.

Does anyone recommend it?

 

[Robert1111]

Has anyone heard of St. Francis de Sales? He specifically went to a French town in order to help the townspeople move away from Calvinism. The book he wrote was The Catholic Controversies.

Does anyone recommend it?

I do. But be aware of the fact that he explicitly rejected the ideas of Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas about predestination.

 

[Robert1111]

@ AugustineFanNYC

I recommend it because his outlook on predestination was by far the most easy to use in order to reconcile God’s Love and Mercy with His Justice and the existence of an eternal Hell.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

I do. But be aware of the fact that he explicitly rejected the ideas of Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas about predestination.

Ooh? I don’t know if I am interested then. I consider myself very Augustinian and Thomistic.

I am surprised Dave Anders would recommend it.

Do you recommend any books from an Augustinian pov?

 

[Robert1111]

Do you recommend any books from an Augustinian pov?

I mean, he didn’t reject the entirety of their theological production, he just rejected their outlook on predestination, Grace and Free-Will.

As for you question, i don’t recommend them because that pov saddens me and frightens me an awful lot, not to mention that it demotivates me to do anything. So i’m esitant to recommend that which is harmful to me and plunges me into deep depression whenever the thought that it might be true creeps in (not it doesn’t happen anymore, thankfully).

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

I mean, he didn’t reject the entirety of their theological production, he just rejected their outlook on predestination, Grace and Free-Will.

As for you question, i don’t recommend them because that pov saddens me and frightens me an awful lot, not to mention that it demotivates me to do anything. So i’m esitant to recommend that which is harmful to me and plunges me into deep depression whenever the thought that it might be true creeps in (not it doesn’t happen anymore, thankfully).

The Augustinian pov depresses you? I honestly think if the Church emphasized predestination and such more, the Protestants would have no ground to accuse us of being a pelagian church. Many protestants think they have the monopoly on grace, predestination, free will, etc.

Augustine was who brought me to the Church, and has helped me out of Calvinism, which mind you is psychologically scarring.

 

[Robert1111]

The Augustinian pov depresses you? I honestly think if the Church emphasized predestination and such more, the Protestants would have no ground to accuse us of being a pelagian church.

That’s what i thought as well in the past. I used to be a thomist, which is pretty much like the augustinian pov. Then i realized what that theory would have implied for the people i knew and care about, and i realized that it was all a great mistake on my part.

Also, now i don’t give two figs about the Protestants, they aren’t even true churches. The orthodox instead have always adopted the view that which is now the most widespread in the Catholic Church.

Indeed Augustine was pretty much alone at that time with his outlook on these subjects.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

That’s what i thought as well in the past. I used to be a thomist, which is pretty much like the augustinian pov. Then i realized what that theory would have implied for the people i knew and care about, and i realized that it was all a great mistake on my part.

Also, now i don’t give two figs about the Protestants, they aren’t even true churches. The orthodox instead have always adopted the view that which is now the most widespread in the Catholic Church.

Indeed Augustine was pretty much alone at that time with his outlook on these subjects.

I am new to Catholicism from Protestantism, so I don’t understand why you’d say you don’t give two “figs” about helping others. Calvinism and much of Protestant evangelical ideology, is very psychologically gripping. It’s an excellent form of control that keeps people from ever stepping foot or even considering the Catholic Church. The CC doesn’t help this dilemma out by de-emphasizing the stuff Augustine and Aquinas talked about.
So we look like Pelagians by default in comparison to their extreme doctrines of grace and predestination.

It seems that your rejection of Augustine and Aquinas is mostly emotional. If there was a fervent emphasis that Protestants do not have a monopoly on the doctrines of grace and such, there would be a lot of people going to the CC. People in evangelical churches know there is something off about Calvinism, but they feel trapped unable to go to another church because they’re told every other Christian church is “Arminian” and heretical.

Augustine is seen as the best Catholic apologist of all time, by both Catholics and Protestants. You should be proud he is a part of Church history.

Are you also saying that the Thomistic and Augustinian pov are now in the minority??

 

[Vico]

…

The objections are precisely meant to be refuted by Saint Thomas.

Yes, thank you, I mistakenly left out the reply, so I will add the salient parts:

Main: … Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory. …

Reply to Objection 1. The use of grace foreknown by God is not the cause of conferring grace, except after the manner of a final cause; as was explained above.

Reply to Objection 1. … This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. …

 

[Robert1111]

I am new to Catholicism from Protestantism, so I don’t understand why you’d say you don’t give two “figs” about helping others.

It’s not like i don’t give two figs about helping others, sorry, i used the wrong words. What i meant is that we don’t the validation of the Protestants. Only the truth attracts people.

Calvinism and much of Protestant evangelical ideology, is very psychologically gripping. It’s an excellent form of control that keeps people from ever stepping foot or even considering the Catholic Church

Well, i can see where you are coming from.

The CC doesn’t help this dilemma out by de-emphasizing the stuff Augustine and Aquinas talked about.
So we look like Pelagians by default in comparison to their extreme doctrines of grace and predestination.

Here is where i nope out. Why should we care? The God taught by the Church is the true God and if certain outlooks have mostly been left behind (even though they are still approved) i think there is a reason. The thomist and augustinian perspective on predestination is really not that different from Calvinism when you dig deep enough into it, some technicalities prevent the charge of heresy but you know: if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck etc…

As for the last point, yes, very much in the minority. Most “common” Catholics at least in my country don’t even have the concept of predestination, which is perhaps too much on the other side.

 

[Robert1111]

Yes, thank you, I mistakenly left out the reply,

The problem is not that you “left out the reply”,Vico. The problem, at least to me, is the fact that you try to sell an objection that Saint Thomas was refuting as if it was his own opinion. This, unless you did it unwillingly, is very dishonest.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

It’s not like i don’t give two figs about helping others, sorry, i used the wrong words. What i meant is that we don’t the validation of the Protestants. Only the truth attracts people.

AugustineFanNYC:

It’s not about validation, it’s about Protestants seeking the truth and finding it in the CC. In my country, the US, evangelicalism is strong. It fools people into thinking that the CC is utter heresy and purely pelagian. Yet, many people are incredibly surprised to see that the CC even has teachings on these subjects. To Protestants, especially in America, these doctrines are kind of vital to their conception of what is a true church.

In the CC, they find the complete truth. Whole and beautiful. This is helped by greats saints such as Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.

Here is where i nope out. Why should we care? The God taught by the Church is the true God and if certain outlooks have mostly been left behind (even though they are still approved) i think there is a reason. The thomist and augustinian perspective on predestination is really not that different from Calvinism when you dig deep enough into it, some technicalities prevent the charge of heresy but you know: if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck etc…

As for the last point, yes, very much in the minority. Most “common” Catholics at least in my country don’t even have the concept of predestination, which is perhaps too much on the other side.

Why do you laugh? These outlooks haven’t been left behind for the most part from what I am reading. I am sure the average Catholic knows little about them and they’re probably not emphasized from the clergy, many of which border on neo-pelagianism and liberalism anyways. Yes, I said it. In my country, younger and younger Catholics are slowly starting to gravitate toward traditionalism and are encouraged by the works of St. Thomas and Augustine. Too bad it’s not happening in your country. I will pray for them because unlike you, I give two figs about people.

 

[Robert1111]

@Vico

You clarified in the other topic that it was a mistake on your part so we are cool with that I guess.

 

[Robert1111]

It’s not about validation, it’s about Protestants seeking the truth and finding it in the CC. In my country, the US, evangelicalism is strong. It fools people into thinking that the CC is utter heresy and purely pelagian. Yet, many people are incredibly surprised to see that the CC even has teachings on these subjects. To Protestants, especially in America, these doctrines are kind of vital to their conception of what is a true church.

I can understand that.

Why do you laugh? These outlooks haven’t been left behind for the most part from what I am reading.

They are still tenable but even some modern thomists don’t believe in the hard predestinarianism of Augustine and Aquinas. And you know why? Because it’s next to impossible to reconcile it with God’s love and Mercy.

Yes, I said it. In my country, younger and younger Catholics are slowly starting to gravitate toward traditionalism and are encouraged by the works of St. Thomas and Augustine. Too bad it’s not happening in your country. I will pray for them because unlike you, I give two figs about people.

In my country traditionalism is on the rise as well, but it’s the hard predestinarians concept of Augustine and Aquinas that fail to make many followers. Probably it helps that we have always been a strong Catholic nation and we’ve never been a mainly Protestant country.

I care about people too, as i said i used the wrong words in the other comment, don’t remark it again, please. It’s just that i think that only God’s love can foster true and lasting conversions.

 

[Robert1111]

Why do you laugh?

I laughed because of the analogy of the duck. In another topic i made another analogy using the pig and the lipstick on a pig, which conveyed the same point. I laughed because it seemed a right analogy, in the sense that after having dug so deep into it, thomism and augustinianism really seem to me a cleverly disguised calvinism that manage to avoid the charge of heresy.

That’s all.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Yes, thank you, I mistakenly left out the reply,

The problem is not that you “left out the reply”,Vico. The problem, at least to me, is the fact that you try to sell an objection that Saint Thomas was refuting as if it was his own opinion. This, unless you did it unwillingly, is very dishonest.

It was a mistake.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

They are still tenable but even some modern thomists don’t believe in the hard predestinarianism of Augustine and Aquinas. And you know why? Because it’s next to impossible to reconcile it with God’s love and Mercy.

That may be more of an issue of the times, than actual theological differences. In public someone might shy away from the “hard” predestination, but in private, I’ve heard many of my Catholic friends say that they’re fine with it, and it does make sense. It’s not next to impossible to reconcile with God’s love and mercy, if you stretch out the concept of love and mercy to near extremes, which many modernists in the church do. I don’t get why the emphasis is on the stuff that makes us all feel warm and fuzzy, and more popular among the world, when there are realities that must be faced about this.

In my country traditionalism is on the rise as well, but it’s the hard predestinarians concept of Augustine and Aquinas that fail to make many followers. Probably it helps that we have always been a strong Catholic nation and we’ve never been a mainly Protestant country.

If the Catholic Church and Catholics started becoming more traditionalist and started emphasizing “hard” predestination and all the things Protestants claim to have a monopoly on, there would be a mass exodus of evangelical and Protestant churches, especially among the youth. Even in the protestant camp the Reformed Calvinists are gaining strength. You know why? Because they’re actually reading the Bible, and the Bible isn’t all roses, there are some harsh realities that cannot be overcome by modernist happy gospel.

They want answers. Yet, while Calvinism develops a zeal in a young person, after a while the extremes start to mess with you psychologically. It’s untenable from the Protestant perspective. But at the same time, you cannot unsee the passages you read in the Bible. Thomistic and Augustinians really help in reconciling this and bringing this perspective to full view. It’s very uplifting actually, not depressing.

 

[Robert1111]

It was a mistake.

I know, i have already recognized that, don’t worry.