Understanding free will in light of God's sovereignty

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Mboo said:
Why are you insulting him? show clearly, what is wrong.
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Someone else stated it better than I.

God does not predestinate anyone for Hell once more. God allows the future damned to come into the world for His glory. This does not mean that these damned were predestined for Hell, in the sense that God had decided in advance that they would be in Hell.

Everyone sin freely, so it is not evil if God sends to Hell whoever has sinned freely. God does not predestinate anyone to Hell. If someone goes to hell, it’s because he freely sinned, it is not because God predestined him for hell.
So why did God still want this person to come into the world, knowing that he would go to hell?? it is the wicked who exercises the most the virtues of the predestined , and therefore allow the predestined to glorify God’s mercy the most. If God had not created, those who are in Hell, then many predestined ones would not have their present glory in Heaven either.

He does it to glorify the justice of his Son. The ultimate purpose of creation is not the happiness of man, but the glory of God. And for the greater glory of God, it is necessary for God to send certain sinners into Hell (to glorify His righteousness), and to choose to save others (to glorify His mercy).
 
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AugustineFanNYC said:
He does it to glorify the justice of his Son. The ultimate purpose of creation is not the happiness of man, but the glory of God . And for the greater glory of God, it is necessary for God to send certain sinners into Hell (to glorify His righteousness), and to choose to save others (to glorify His mercy).
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He is also necessary for God to be a liar since he says the exact opposite to his saints? But never mind, you never answered this question and you probably never will.

Let’s just say during a Catechism lesson to the children that maybe their parents will go to Hell simply because God didn’t wish them salvation, and this means that they will certainly merit Hell where they will be punished to satisfy his glory, and see how it goes.
 
AugustineFanNYC said:
He does it to glorify the justice of his Son. The ultimate purpose of creation is not the happiness of man, but the glory of God . And for the greater glory of God, it is necessary for God to send certain sinners into Hell (to glorify His righteousness), and to choose to save others (to glorify His mercy).
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Catechism of the Catholic Church 294

“ The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us "to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace ",138 for "the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man’s life is the vision of God: if God’s revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word’s manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God."139 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God "who is the creator of all things may at last become “all in all”, thus simultaneously assuring HIS OWN GLORY AND OUR BEATITUDE ."140

I’ve searched in the Catechism and i found nothing suggesting that God wants the damnation of some to manifest his glory.

That interpretation only comes from a badly misunderstood passage of the letter to the Romans, where Saint Paul, as is understood by the modern biblical scholars, was not talking about the salvation of individuals.
 
the glory of God is by definition the outward manifestation of his attributes. Among his attributes, the two most important are his mercy and justice. So logically, if the glory of God is to be manifested to its true value, its justice too must be manifested to its true value. This is a logical consequence, and if no text of the CCC has said so, no text of the CCC has also said the opposite (ie the glory of God can exclude the manifestation of his justice), in this case we must stick to what is logical
 
Mboo said:
the glory of God is by definition the outward manifestation of his attributes. Among his attributes, the two most important are his mercy and justice. So logically, if the glory of God is to be manifested to its true value, its justice too must be manifested to its true value. This is a logical consequence, and if no text of the CCC has said so, no text of the CCC has also said the opposite (ie the glory of God can exclude the manifestation of his justice), in this case we must stick to what is logical
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1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

This is incompatible with the teaching that God simply wants to allow some persons to merit Hell without giving to them what they need to avoid damnation.
 
He does not predestinate anyone to Hell, but he allows some to go to Hell to manifest his righteousness, and he prevents others from going to Hell to show his mercy.
 
“ Sacred Scripture presents us with God as infinite mercy, but also as perfect justice. How are these two things reconciled? How can the reality of mercy be articulated with the need for justice?” the Pope said Feb. 3.

While these two characteristics can seem like opposites, “in reality it’s not like this, because IT’S PRECISELY THE MERCY OF GOD THAT BRINGS THE FULFILLMENT OF TRUE JUSTICE ,” Francis affirmed.

The Pope made his comments to pilgrims gathered in St. Peter’s Square for his weekly general audience. He recently began a new series of catechesis on the topic of mercy as it is understood in scripture, in honor of the Jubilee of Mercy.

He said that when we think of justice, what might come to mind is an administration office where victims of an injustice appeal to a judge in court asking that justice be done.

This, Francis noted, “is retributive justice, imposing a punishment to the guilty, according to the principle that each must be given what is due him.” While certain wrongs can be made right in this way, he said that it “still doesn’t bring true justice.”

Instead, “it is only in responding with good that evil can be truly defeated,” the Pope said, explaining that what we find in the bible is path that teaches, allowing the offended person to approach the guilty party and invite them to conversion.

By helping the guilty person to see the evil they have done and by appealing to their conscience, they are then able “to see their wrong and be open to the forgiveness offered,” Francis said, noting that this is also how families forgive each other, spouses and children included.

Pope Francis noted that of course “this is not an easy path,” since it requires that we be willing to forgive and to always desire the salvation of those who offend us.

However, it is only in doing this that “justice can triumph,” he said, because, “if the guilty person recognizes the wrong done and ceases to do it, then there is no more wrongdoing, and the person who was unjust becomes just, because they have been forgiven and helped to find again the path of good.”

This is where forgiveness and mercy come into play, he said, explaining that this is the true meaning of God’s justice.

“(God) DOES NOT SEEK OUR CONDEMNATION, BUT OUR SALVATION” the Pope continued, noting that this goes for everyone. The problem, then, doesn’t consist of lack of mercy, but rather of “who really wants to allow God to enter their heart.” https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...tradict-each-other-pope-francis-says-no-75638
 
Mboo said:
He does not predestinate anyone to Hell, but he allows some to go to Hell to manifest his righteousness, and he prevents others from going to Hell to show his mercy.
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Those who go to Hell go there because they wish to remain unrepentant until the end, not because hasn’t done what he could to save them.
 
But God could prevent them from going to Hell by giving them effective grace to holiness.
 
it is impossible to resist effective grace, otherwise it is no longer effective
 
Robert1111 said:
“(God) DOES NOT SEEK OUR CONDEMNATION, BUT OUR SALVATION” the Pope continued, noting that this goes for everyone. The problem, then, doesn’t consist of lack of mercy, but rather of “who really wants to allow God to enter their heart.”
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I repeat what Pope Francis said

“(God) DOES NOT SEEK OUR CONDEMNATION, BUT OUR SALVATION” the Pope continued, noting that this goes for everyone. The problem, then, doesn’t consist of lack of mercy, but rather of “who really wants to allow God to enter their heart.”

What you and others seems to be implying (and if you believe this i don’t know why you put the like on many of my posts where i was arguing against this view) instead is exactly the opposite, that is, they were condemned because of a lack of Mercy on the part of God who singly didn’t wish their salvation and left them to their own sinfulness.
 
Mboo said:
it is impossible to resist effective grace, otherwise it is no longer effective
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Is is heretical to state that God’s Grace is impossible to resist

Council of Trent, Session VI, CANON IV.-“If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema”.
 
it is about sufficient grace, this dogma does not say what grace it is. It is also written in the scriptures that God changes the heart of man as he wants
 
Mboo said:
it is about sufficient grace, this dogma does not say what grace it is. It is also written in the scriptures that God changes the heart of man as he wants
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CATECHISM 2002 God’s free initiative DEMANDS man’s free response , for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52”
 
Mboo said:
it is about sufficient grace, this dogma does not say what grace it is
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No, it is not about sufficient Grace, since even the heretics never said that sufficient Grace was irresistible.
 
The possibility of sin is not a characteristic of free will, but an imperfection of free will. Effective grace makes free will temporarily perfect so that free will can not choose sin
 
Mboo said:
The possibility of sin is not a characteristic of free will, but an imperfection of free will. Effective grace makes free will temporarily perfect so that free will can not choose sin
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Again, this is not in the teaching of the Church. This is just the classical thomist way to understand these things, it is in no way a Church teaching.
 
that’s what you say, the dogma tells me nothing. The effective grace by definition infallibly prevents, from sinning
 
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