Understanding Islamic Views

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famdigy said:
Honestly, I can practice Islam more freely here in the west than I can in my native country and I’m great-full for that.
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Would you agree then that were Islam to become the dominant religion there would be an extremely severe curtailing of personal freedom?

Also, why is it easier for you to practice your faith in the west than in your own country? Does that not show you what a contradictory and quite evil religion it is?

I am a Christian and I would say that I would be most free to practice my religion in my own country which is predominantly Christian and I think this holds true for every other person of different faiths, except it seems when you are a Muslim :confused:
 
famdigy said:
We don’t support the persecution of Christians or the vilification of Jews. Imam Ali (as) taught us that those who are not our brothers in faith are our brothers in humanity.
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If non-Muslisms are your brothers in humanity then why kill the apostate? If you don’t support the persecution of Jews and Chrisitans then why kill the Muslim who becomes a Christian or a Jew?

It seems that there are incredible inconsistencies in your teaching.
 
famdigy said:
Secondly, migration and apostasy are two mutually exclusive matters. Migration is permissible for Muslims to protect their religion and well being from oppression in their native countries.
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This does not make sense, why would a Muslim migrate from his own Muslim country to protect his religion and his well being.

The only way you would migrate is if say you are in the west and you are being persecuted in the west or your Muslim faith is being corrupted because of western influences so what you would do is to migrate TO a Muslim country and NOT OUT of a Muslim country.
 
*Abrogation

Abrogation is in conflict with the concept of God. In the Quran we have:

Surah 3 Al-Imran

Verse 85. And whoever seeks a religion other
than Islam, it will never be accepted of
him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the Losers

Allah’s Messenger said: By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad’s soul is, there is none from amongst the Jews and Christians who hears about me and then dies without believing in the Message which I have been sent, but he will be from the dwellers of the Hell Fire. (Sahih Muslim, the Book of Faith, Vol 1, Hadith 240)

On the other hand we have in Surah 29. Al-‘Ankabut

Verse 85 And argue not with the people of the
Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be
in a way that is better (with good words and
with good manner, inviting them to Islamic
monotheism with His Verses), except with
such of them as do wrong; and say to them:
We believe in that which has been revealed
to us and revealed to you; our God and your
God is One and to Him we have submitted.

It seems to me that Allah has changed His Mind.

On abrogation, Allah says the following:

Surah 2 Al-Baqarah

Verse 106 Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We
abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring
a better one or similar to it. Know you not that
Allah is able to do all things?

Let us bear in mind that Allah is perfect and all knowing. So, why do we have an abrogation? If we bring a verse that is better than the previous one, it is because the preceding one was not perfect.

Also since Allah is all knowing He cannot be surprised. If Allah thought that the Jews were Ok at one time He could not have changed his mind and now think they are no good. This means that Allah now knows something He didn’t know before. But Allah is all knowing so He cannot change His Mind. We are told that Allah is able to do all things. However, one thing that Allah cannot do is to change his mind. Doing so means that Allah has ceased to be God.
*
 
Famdigy,

Back to secular governments…Christ said His kingdom is not of this world. The Catholic Church, since it is no longer temporal as well, has no favored form of government.

John Paul II appeared to be anti-Capitalist at the beginning of his pontificate. But he said in time, that he considered the best form of government that which is a democracy, has a free market, but there is a strong moral voice…the government is a servant to the people, not the other way around.

Secular governments have killed more people in the history of mankind than religion. However, Islam – with its never ending Jihad – it eventually pits Muslim against Muslim, has caused 270 million deaths in overcoming Christianity in Egypt, Syria and Palestine, Turkey, Armenia, Iran, Pakistan and India, areas of Buddhism, the attacks on Europe, Northern Africa, and current locations that it is inroading.

After 9/11, there was a thread on the history of Islam since its beginning…I couldn’t believe it…every 3 years or so, Muslims started atleast skirmishes and small battles since the 1500’s. My missionary priest friend is now serving in the diocese of Trani, Italy. The Cathedral has the skulls of 800 Catholic men who refused to convert to Islam by the Turks and then beheaded.

During the Battle of Lepanto, thousands of Christian slaves were operating the Muslim boats, the Christian defenders knowing they were on the enemy ships.

People don’t forget. And to spread religion through murder and pride of dominance is nothing to brag about. Just now a Sharia law was used in a state in our country and people are outraged. The man raped his wife. That is OK. He was spared of any penalty. Many Muslim women who come here are reporting abuse by their husbands… ‘who have no self-control’. What I am saying is that inspite of all the flowery language, there is much abuse, injustice in Islam that is more like people living in the Old Testament.

The fact that Muslims demand what they want and do not reciprocate is also very telling. We do not see a Godly spirit and attitude in that.

The United States Constitution is the best in the world and no other like it before. But we have been on the communist radar screen going way back. They have infiltrated our universities targeting the ‘cream of the crop’…making Christianity evil. The kids know nothing except that religion has caused more deaths in the world than secular governments…which is not true. All this they are doing through the education system and our system of law…our country is pretty much run by lawyers.

There is already too much imposition on the vast majority of American people, and it is destroying our way of life. We do not want foreign beliefs from a part of the world so alien to ours and which is so brutal. That doesn’t make sense.
 
Whichever Faith tradition we come from, the fact at the heart of the matter is the same. Our inheritance from our creator is at stake. It will be no good at the end of the day as we sit admidst the wreckage, trying to console ourselve’s that it was all done for the best possible reason’s of development and the betterment of mankind.

The inconvenient truth is that we share this planet with the rest of creation, much of which is in jeopardy. In a nuclear age where total destruction is a buttons push away. In all our wisdom this is the point we have taken the world within. One again we’ll be saying, as so many times before, Ah another lost civilization, it would have been worth preserving.

The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we do about peace, more about killing than we know about living.

Albert Einstein said…“The release of Atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking…the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker”.

Ever think about what God would do should he become truly upset with man? A flood, hurricane or ice-age? How about sending Bad Leaders? The experience would truly become the teacher. You’d get the test first and the lesson afterwards once again. Sad, you would think we would know better by now.

Should once again violence prevail and the sanctity of life be forgotten? Should peace be replaced with the unsightly scars of death and war and the wrongs of Man? Where is Sanity?

OK lets back to the Quran/Bible, enough philosophy

JESUS is alive with god (Koran 3,55;4,158,159)

Muhammad is dead and buried in Medina AWAITING JUDGMENT

‘The Prophet said, ‘’‘By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me’’’ (Hadith vol. 5, no. 266).

Islam’s prophet, Muhammad, believed Jesus was the Messiah, Allah’s anointed messenger. Allah’s people (Muslims) are told to listen to Allah’s messengers (Koran, 4.171; 5. 111*)…

Allah took Jesus to heaven where he awaits until the day of judgment when he will return to earth (3,55). Muslim traditions teach that Muhammad died not knowing if he would be judged worthy to enter Paradise - where God has already placed Jesus. Muhammad is Dead and buried in Saudi Arabia. Jesus is alive both with God in heaven (paradise) and in Spirit with his followers on Earth. (Koran 3,55;4,158,159)

This is the great difference between Jesus and Muhammad according to the Quran/Koran. Jesus is alive in Heaven with God and Muhammad is dead and buried. IN MEDINA, SAUDI ARABIA, STILL AWAITING GOD’S JUDGMENT.

Muhammad’s revelations about Jesus contained in the Koran should be read by his followers, all Muslims, as the Koran requires. The Qur’an/Koran proves Jesus is the Messiah and Muhammad did not replace him as final prophet.

Muhammad, Islam’s Prophet, believed Jesus was sent by Allah to be the Messiah, miraculously born of the Virgin Mary, who brought the Gospel, who died, was raised from the dead, then ascended into heaven to be with Allah. Jesus would become an everlasting blessing to all mankind!

The Koran tells how Allah anointed Jesus, through a virgin birth to be the Messiah - Savior of the world, nearly five hundred and fifty years before Muhammad was born.

Muslims believe the Koran was written by God and is God’s message to all people. If Jesus is what the Koran teaches he is/was, it is impossible for Muhammad to have replaced Jesus. There can be only one Messiah.

Jesus did the Messiah’s work (opening heaven) 550 years before Islam’s Prophet was born.

As God’s messenger, Jesus explained, simplified, and demonstrated God’s will and message, although the Jews did not believe in him. Jesus’ “Good News” - the Gospel - is about God’s love and forgiveness for all mankind. Muhammad’s revelations, recorded in the Koran/Qur’an teach that:
  1. Jesus was sent by Allah, who supported him with the Holy Spirit to tell the world Allah’s will (2: 87; 5: 110-117*).
  2. Allah gave to the world Jesus, exalted him above all others, and supported him with the Holy Spirit as proof of his sovereignty (2: 253*).
  3. Allah caused the miracle birth of John the Baptist to the aged Zechariah and his barren wife so John could be the messenger to announce Jesus as the Messiah (3: 33-41*).
  4. Allah appointed Mary to be the virgin mother of Jesus, the Messiah (3: 42-45; 19: 12-22; 21: 90*).
  5. Jesus would be righteous [sinless] all his life (3: 46; 6: 86; 19: 19*).
  6. Jesus would be raised from the dead (19: 33,34*).
  7. Jesus, Messiah and son of Mary, crucified, appeared dead and was taken up my Allah himself (4: 157,158; 3: 55*). He did not “appear to be alive” because he was dead. Crucifixion was the Roman method of execution similar to hanging. No one survived being crucified. See # 6. above.
  8. Jesus was a messenger of Allah, who is to be believed (4: 171*).
  9. Allah taught Jesus his religion and commanded Jesus to establish it (42: 13; 43: 63*).
  10. Allah caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow [the prophets], gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him (57: 27*).
  11. Allah strengthened the group of Jews who believed Jesus and his message, so they overcame those who disbelieved (61: 14*).
  12. The true message of Jesus and the prophets was perverted by religious leaders who were condemned by Allah (9: 31*).
Cont.
 
  1. Long before the Prophet Muhammad, Allah revealed the Torah and the Gospel for mankind’s guidance (3: 3, 4, 48, 65*).
  2. Allah taught Jesus the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. Allah would do miracles through Jesus and make him a messenger to Israel (3: 48, 49*).
  3. Allah gathered Jesus and caused him to be resurrected and ascended to Allah himself (3: 55; 4:158*).
  4. Allah bestowed the Gospel on Jesus to be a light (5: 46*).
  5. Observing the Torah and the Gospel brings nourishment from above (5: 66*).
  6. Those who went astray from Allah’s commands were cursed by both David and Jesus (5: 78*).
  7. Allah inspired Jesus’ Disciples to believe in Jesus and his message (5: 110*).
  8. Jesus and his Disciples were Allah’s helpers (61: 6,14*).
  9. Believe in all that was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received (2: 136*).
  10. The Surrender, al-Islam, is Islam and Muslims are to be surrendered to Allah’s will and guidance (3: 19*), as had been revealed to Abraham by God and explained by Jesus. (See www.abraham-101.org)//))
*(All citations listed are from THE MEANING OF THE GLORIOUS KORAN, translated by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall: A mentor Religious Classic, The New American Library, New York, New York, fifth printing, 1956.)

[Click on The Koran for another translation of the Koran/Qur’an that confirms Pickthall’s translation.]

Because the Koran described Jesus, who ministered almost six hundred years before Muhammad, in the way it does, comparison of Jesus with Muhammad is necessary to understand the vast difference between these two.

Compare:
Jesus was the Messiah (the Anointed) who brought the Gospel - “Good News” to man as God’s messenger. As Messiah, he made it possible for every person to be saved from the “Original Sin” of separation from God.

JESUS OPENED THE DOOR TO GOD! Jesus freed all people from Torah restrictions and opened our direct prayer line to God.

Those who pray to God are able to only because of what Jesus did for all mankind. For the first time in history, every person could, and can, pray directly to the one God, creator of all things. No Temple, priests, rules, dogmas, or liturgies are required for God to care about a person and hear one’s prayers. ONLY because of Jesus, Muslims, and all others can talk to God anytime, from anywhere! Few people, and no Muslims, are aware of this historical fact.

That is the work the Messiah did, and the message of his Gospel - the Good News - God sent to the world through Jesus. [See 16, above. Allah bestowed the Gospel on Jesus (not Muhammad but Jesus) to be a light to the world (5, 46*)].

Jesus told the people that God loved them and would look after them, if they would submit to him. He said we can best understand God as Father, or better as Abba - “Daddy.”

Jesus said God would never leave or forsake them, would always hear their prayers, and forgive them all their sins.

Jesus said God’s earlier instructions (Old Covenant in the Torah) to the Jews were now changed into a different and a New Covenant (gospel-101.org). In the past, to please God one needed to obey and follow all 613 rules of Judaism. So, it had been necessary to be a Jew who was under the LAW - the Torah - to be one of God’s people. (See judaism-101.org)

Jesus said all a person had to do to inherit eternal life was to believe he was sent by God, was telling the truth, and had opened the doors of Heaven so humans could enter into the Kingdom of Heaven [presence of God] while on earth. Man no longer had to die to have at-one-ment, atonement, with God.

The idea of SURRENDER came with Abraham and was essential to Jesus’ New Covenant, God’s changed Covenant for all people. Submission to God’s will is an essential part of the Lord’s Prayer, Matthew 6:10.

Your willingness to surrender control of your life, hopes, ideas and desires to God is required. This is asking God to do his will in all areas of your life, followed by a prayer sincerely offering yourself to God to do with as God pleases.

Surrendering includes believing Jesus’ New Covenant message.
Once this submission of self to God is seriously made, God puts his Holy Spirit in the your “heart” and mind. This act of God [Grace] is because of your attitude and your desire; not because of particular acts, works, or doctrines. Then you will actually feel the love God in your heart, and know for sure that God has accepted you because of the born again, Pentecostal experience. You become a “Temple of the Holy Spirit.”

The Prophet Muhammad, as recorded in the Koran, claimed he replaced Jesus as the final prophet. So Muhammad declared his revelations [the Koran] replaced the message God delivered through Jesus.

Muhammad’s replacement religion of Islam returned to many of the Jewish laws and customs, including food taboos. Islam is a religious system of laws entirely different from the free grace Jesus preached. Islam’s surrender is to the Qur’an and not a direct surrender to God in Prayer.

In Islam, man still must surrender to the will of Allah, but only to what is written in the Koran/Qur’an. The change from Jesus’ concept of self-surrender to Muhammad’s concept is dramatic. A person’s surrender in Islam is now as slave to master, and no longer surrender because of the love of child to parent. Islam insists God has no children, only slaves. Islam teaches that Muslims, and all people, are Allah’s slaves. Muslims must bow down to Allah five times a day in a slave’s obeisance to him.
 
To Jesus, one’s duty is to love [agape] God with all one’s being and also to “love [agape] your neighbor as you love yourself” and to “pray without ceasing.” Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to those who ask. That Spirit of God, is given by grace, as God’s gift and not by doing required works. God will “write his laws on your heart and mind” and make you a “Temple of the Holy Spirit,” and citizen of his “Holy Nation” - the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is free grace given by God’s love of his children and not by following any set of rules. Islam gives no provision for this personal face-to-face relationship with ABBA - Father, that Jesus offered his followers. Islam gives no promise of entry into Paradise for following the Koran/Qur’an, except to jihad warriors killed in combat.

(A contemporary additional Islamic belief is that any Muslim who dies on the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca will immediately enter into “Paradise.”)

Islam changes free grace to human duties of works - to obeying the Koran’s rules.

The Koran teaches Allah is a merciful and forgiving God, but only for Muslims who obey Muhammad’s revelations written in the Koran/Qur’an. The Koran/Qur’an teaches that God will viciously punish any who do not “believe” (the unbelievers or infidels) in Muhammad and his revelations - Islam’s first “Pillar.”

The first of the five pillars of Islam is that a Muslim is anyone who believes the only deity is “Allah” and Muhammad is Allah’s (final) prophet. The result is that a Muslim is required to believe the Koran/Qur’an because it contains Muhammad’s prophecies.

In Islam, God’s (Allah’s) approval - now depends on following the Koran, instead of God’s love and grace being freely given by a loving heavenly Abba, Father.

The equality of all people [as neighbors] that God revealed through Jesus, is changed by the Koran. Muslims are superior to “infidels” - unbelievers. Men are superior to women (Koran 4: 34). Wives must be obedient servants of their husbands or be punished (Koran 4: 34). Wives are required to follow the husband’s will, in the same manner Muslims are to follow Allah’s will, or be subject to their husband’s punishment. Click here for Muslim women information.

These are a few of the many changes Muhammad’s revelations make in God’s message earlier revealed through Jesus. The biographical information on Muhammad is on the Internet and in most libraries. Click here for Muhammad’s history.

A short course on Jesus can be found in the New Testament book of Matthew, chapters 1-10. An explanation of Jesus’ primary teachings is in God-101.org and can be reached by clicking on the listing. Full discussions of Jesus’ words and works are located in the “Gospels” of the New Testament - the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

The great differences between Jesus and Muhammad can easily be seen and understood when these foundation materials are studied.

Islam is not a continuation of Jesus’ ministry, but contradicts Jesus completely. Jesus taught peace (Matthew 5:9, 38-48). The Qur’an teaches violence, and declares its God (Allah) requires cruel punishment of non-Muslim “infidels” - (Koran/Qur’an 8: 12; 9: 5: 9; 29: 9: 73; 47: 4; etc.).

Islam avoids confronting these contradictions by asserting all of the Bible is false and does not contain any reliable information. Because of this unsupported myth, Islam-101 lists only what the Koran/Qur’an declares about Jesus. No Bible statements are used on this webpage.

Once again, REMEMBER:

Muslims believe the Koran was written by God and is God’s message to all people. If Jesus is what the Koran teaches he is/was,

It is impossible for Muhammad to replace Jesus. There can be only one Messiah. Jesus did the Messiah’s work (opening heaven) 550 years before Islam’s Prophet was born. Only the resurrected Jesus can put a person in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Muhammad is dead and buried in the ground in Medina. Jesus is alive in Heaven with God, our loving Father

God Bless, GT
 
Great exposition, Gary, thank you for all your work…excellent!
 
Peace and blessings,
I am very busy at this time with what i am sure is not too much on my plate but with the thorns of being lazy and so on i have not given this thread sufficient time to speak how i see G-d / Allah as would be best.
I am like 4 pages behind, i am a poor reader and typer so it takes me a long time to digest.
i have noted the what religion is Steven John question has popped up among you and to be fair to you all my specified religion in CAF confuses new comers and people i have not chatted with before last thing i want is to derail the thread so if anyone has questions from this post pm me might be best and i will endevour to explain what you ask of me.

I dont call my self any religion as i dont fully understand all of the doctrines and teachings, that does not mean i say the things i dont understand are wrong but just i dont understand them. There are some things in some religions i see at this time as wrong but it does not mean you are wrong as i am not your judge. Maybe some things are wrong or maybe i need to grow more to see them as right.

I will stand against what i see as injustice to others, by action, words or in my heart depending on the situation and the gifts and skills i have.

The most important thing to many of you and to me is to make clear i am a monotheistic, there is none the same as G-d and He needs no partner or anything from any of us. He does have pleasure in us giving to his goodness.

I love Islam for the zeal piety and devotion to seek G-ds pleasure, they are people blessed with awesome strength and discipline.

I love Pentecostals for the immense joy they have and share and like Muslims build strong daily gathering activities that help the weak stay away from secular pressures that leed to sin.

I have solid Catholic ties, IMO they are best at encouraging without judgment. That is really a hard thing to do as a human and i often joke saying i would never have come into this time if it were not for Vat II, that does not attest to it being a perfect document but is a huge blessing to the whole world, at least for those whoms its fruit has touched.

You know i see these beautiful things in different ways in so many individuals regardless of their religion.

It really does not matter to me what religion i am called, if you call me as your religion i am very humbled and humbled as most will see their religion as right and i am so not, just a little sinner.

If you call for peace, you will only get war or submittance or compromise.
If you act in love (verb) you will bring peace and truth will be seen.
The world is less about saying and most about doing,
less about me and most about you, for in your happiness I am blessed.

I have been blessed in this thread, in past times i have seen “debate” in CAF be used to license slagging and hate, i praise G-d for the great conduct i see between so many at this time.

He is answering my prayer, i see you bringing the fruit. i praise and thank Him for what He is doing in us.

Pray well, devoted and honest, together we are showing this time the true timeless
kingdom that is right in front of us.

" I will be who I will be." you have free will so choose who you see

PS I dont want to be a bridge, people walk all over them, (a little Aussie humor)
but let it be G-ds will not mine.
 
Cinette said:
About 18 months ago an ex-Muslim journalist was converted to the Catholic Church and was baptised and received into the Church by the Pope. Since this was done at the Easter Vigil it was televised all over the world. Are you telling me that this man is an apostate and since his conversion was televised he must be put to death??? Elwill said in a previous posting that Muslims have free will. So now you say they have no choice. Either you are Muslim or an apostate?
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i said to you that some muslims believe that apostates should to be killed , and others don’t believe in that

my choice to believe that no punishments should to be on apostate wasn’t a self desire .
i read about two openions deeply and refutation of each side to the other , i collected the knowldge from two sides , as long as my understanding increase and my search study increase , i feel more convinced that we have no rights to punish the apostates for just being apostates

someone here said that i contradicted the quraan by saying that , when i asked him to show me these verses which i contradicted ( i’m sure he will find nothing) , he disappeared 😊
 
Cinette said:
*Abrogation

Abrogation is in conflict with the concept of God. In the Quran we have:

Surah 3 Al-Imran

Verse 85. And whoever seeks a religion other
than Islam, it will never be accepted of
him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the Losers
*
this verse is very general , and i described it before

if you need to understand it from the point of view of quran then read the following verses
as an examples

2-132And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.

2-133Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons: What will you serve after me? They said: We will serve your god and the god of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one Allah only, and to Him do** we submit **( muslims)

3-52 But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah’s way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones(muslims)

5-111 And when I revealed to the disciples, saying, Believe in Me and My messenger, they said: We believe and bear witness that we submit (ourselves) (muslims).

about nation ot Lot (pbuh) , the angles said to abraham
51-36 But We did not find therein save a (single) house of those **who submitted **(the Muslims).

3-67Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

2-128Our Lord! And make us **submissive **(Muslims) unto You and of our offspring a nation submissive (muslims) unto You, and show us our Manasik (all the ceremonies of pilgrimage - Hajjand 'Umrah), and accept our repentance. Truly, You are the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.

3-19 Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
Allah’s Messenger said: By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad’s soul is, there is none from amongst the Jews and Christians who hears about me and then dies without believing in the Message which I have been sent, but he will be from the dwellers of the Hell Fire. (Sahih Muslim, the Book of Faith, Vol 1, Hadith 240)
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elwill said:
i said to you that some muslims believe that apostates should to be killed , and others don’t believe in that

my choice to believe that no punishments should to be on apostate wasn’t a self desire .
i read about two openions deeply and refutation of each side to the other , i collected the knowldge from two sides , as long as my understanding increase and my search study increase , i feel more convinced that we have no rights to punish the apostates for just being apostates
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But your opinion and belief aside, what does the Quran teach? Does it teach execution of apostates or not?

What are the relevant verses that support your interpretation?
 
elwill said:
this verse is very general …

you misunderstand the verse actually , but instead of arguing about it’s iterpretation , i want to know why you abrogated OT , why did he need to abrogate it , wasn’t it perfect ?
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Show me what in the OT needed to be abrogated?
 
Steven John, I like what you said in your last post, I agree, it certainly is a Blessing. And I’m learning much.

No time to chat but I’ll catch “all” you later.

Much Love,

Gary
 
benedictus2 said:
But your opinion and belief aside, what does the Quran teach? Does it teach execution of apostates or not?

What are the relevant verses that support your interpretation?
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Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217
“They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. **And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein.” **
Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn’t order the death of those people.

Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54
“O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.”
Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90
“But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.”
Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty’s path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.

Noble Verse 4:137 “Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way.”

Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.
 
elwill said:
didn’t you canceled it’s laws and substitute it with NT
Click to expand...
*The NT is the fulfillment of the OT which is vastly different from substituting … Where did you get that idea? Of course some Jews embraced Jesus and the NT while others did not recognise Jesus as the Messiah.

Cinette:)*
 
This document is somewhat confussing to me. :confused:

I’ve read it over & over and it does **not **seem to be the words of mohamad.

**This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).**

Do the muslim members on here believe this are mohamads words…???
 
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