Understanding Islamic Views

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tomarin said:
It’s not comforting in the least to know that you and the Wahhabi fundamentalists see eye to eye about the “true” nature of Islam (and all the other sects and persuasions can go to heck, apparently).
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Someone made a reference to Muhammad cursing the Jews and Christians and I supplied the quote. Any problem with that?

It’s not comforting either to find so many people like you, who continue to view Islam through rose-colored glasses and fail to see the threat it presents to all of us!

Vickie
 
Alcrusader said:
Shouldn’t I first wait Muslims to prove that mohammad is in heaven in the firstplace?
All I can tell you is, and it’s a question for all muslims, why did mohammad before he died asked his followers to ask ALLAH to pray on mohammad and ask him that he could allow to mohammad to enter heaven?
…sala allah ala mohamad wa sallam… w lyoskenah fasih jinaneh…

“… May ALLAH pray on mohammad and “tell him hello [in the common sens]” … and may him [ALLAH] allow mohammad to enter his glorious Heaven…”

From here I’m gona start. Why mohammad asked his followers to always pray for him so that “ALLAH” allow him to enter the heaven???
Wasn’t he a prophet??? shouldn’t he pray for us and not we as muslims] pray for him? Isn’t weird ???

Didn’t Mohammad trusted his god, and wasn’t he sure about entering heavens?
Or was he scared that that his god never existed or is not to be trusted in the first place…?
Maybe mohammad was scared about all his sins from killing to raping to steeling to allowing many things were forbidden in the past…?
this is a Hadith, from Sahih Moslim, Book 031, Number 5986:

A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) at the time of breathing his last was reclining against her chest and she was leaning over him and listening to him as he was saying: O Allah, grant me pardon, show mercy to me, enjoin me to companions
(on High).

the bad thing is that it is not precisely translated to english!!!

and this is the arabic version which is more precise.



‏حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن الزبرقان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏موسى بن عقبة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏
‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏سددوا ‏ ‏وقاربوا ‏ ‏وأبشروا فإنه لا يدخل أحدا الجنة عمله قالوا ولا أنت يا رسول الله قال ولا أنا إلا أن يتغمدني الله بمغفرة ورحمة ‏
‏قال أظنه ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي النضر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏وقال ‏ ‏عفان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏وهيب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏موسى بن عقبة ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏أبا سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏سددوا ‏ ‏وأبشروا ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏مجاهد ‏
‏قولا سديدا ‏
‏وسدادا صدقا
​
the main point is that mohammad say that " … Behold you people non is going to enter the heaven for his works, and they asked him, not even you prophet? He said, not even me! Only if ALLAH grant me pardon and showed me mercy… etc"
this is surah maryam 19: 71- 72
  1. Code: 
     Not one of you but will pass over it (Hell): this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.
  2. Code: 
     But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrongdoers therein, (humbled) to their knees.
and the arabic version says


وان منكم الا واردها . كان على ربك حتما مقضيا. ثم ننجي الذين اتقوا ونذروا الظالمين فيها جثيا
( سوره مريم 71-72)
​

and it means that non of you [Muslims] will not go to hell! this means, each muslim gonna visit hell after he dies, and their he even could stay for ever in the fire and misery, or go away from it. But what’s 100% certain is that EACH MUSLIM GONNA ENTER HELL! Even Mohammad him self, since he’s muslim too.
and above that all we have this devastating verse in
آل عمران 54
وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ​

Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

and this means

And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.

DID you BELIEVED THAT???

THE QURAN SAY THAT ALLAH/GOD IS THE BEST CHEATER!!! EVEN THE BEST OF THE CHEATERS!!

look how Muslim reacted about it when they translated their book to other language! LOOK WHAT THEY DID!

this is Surah Âl 'Imran (3:54) in English version]

They [unbelievers] planned and God planned. But God is the best of planners. (Surah Al 'Imran, 3:54)

The WORD “CHEATER” BECAME “PLANER”!!!

See how The LIES Start To Falls?!

need more info. read here: answering-islam.org/Quran/Versions/003.054.html

how muslim gona reply? :::::: > Their is 2 kind of cheats, an Good one and a bad one.
and certainly the cheating of ALLAH is the good one.

plz don’t luff !! this is how muslim respond on it! I deals with muslims on forums all the time, and they all anwser the same thing!

Is there “A GOOD CHEAT” AND “A BAD CHEAT” in the first place??

And watch out!, “Cheating” ( in arabic مكر - or ماكر) is one of the characteristics of ALLAH, or called 99 names of allah

could any one trust a cheater person], if no… what if it is a god who is a cheater???
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I do not see how this proves that he is not in heaven.
 
No it isn’t.
Because Bin Laden has no God.
His pride is his God.

A] Yet your last sentence clearly states you don’t know this man? So how would you know? And he remains the 5th most popular figure in the Islamic Nation.

He expresses his arrogance in religious terms.
But it remains arrogance.

A] Opinion, he remains the 5th most popular figure in the Islamic Nation which is based on its Religion.

No. My thinking describes his. It doesn’t confirm it because I don’t know the man.

A] Now you pretend to know the intention of this mans thinking, nobody knows what anybody is thinking. Thats a FACT. Even if you hear whats being said, you cannot conclude thinking/thought from that.“You don’t know the man”…Thats becoming abundantly clear.

When the Israelites were wayward, God gave Moses the choice-- he could accept their annihilation and become the father of a new nation of how own progeny, or he could intercede for the Israelites and preserve them such that they might amend their lives. Moses chose the latter and we know that it was a virtuous choice. A godly and even holy choice.
Had he chosen the former, he would have placed arrogance at the center of his soul; his choice would have doomed him as much as Israel and you know it

How you conclude this has anything to do with Islam, which is the topic of this post is baffling. Maybe you can shine some light on this.

God Bless, GT
 
Gary T:

Your posts are hard to make sense - please use the quote marks and then address the issue…

Thanks
 
Booklover said:
It’s not comforting either to find so many people like you, who continue to view Islam through rose-colored glasses and fail to see the threat it presents to all of us.
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I think fundamentalist Islam (for want of a better term) poses a threat, mostly to other Muslims in Muslim-majority countries who don’t fit their definition of what “true” Islam is about. But what’s depressing (and yes, maddening) is that there are non-Muslims who unwittingly side with the fundamentalists by accepting wholesale their stereotype of what “true” Islam is about, and then find themselves in the paradoxical position of lecturing Muslims on internet message boards about what their religion really means.

I guess it’s true that politics makes strange bedfellows!
 
I’ll tell ya, the more you research Islam the more strange twists it takes.

If you just begin to research the Archaelogy of the Mecca there are startling contrasts.

Kaaba, Mecca have no relation to Islam by Abraham but through word association. History links this to a Pagan sight with worship to the Sun deity as their primary God and the Moon deity as there secondary. The Moon deity interestingly enough is called “sin” or “Allah”. Kaaba was built as a shrine for the Moon deity. The artifacts which are secured through archaelogy seem to confirm this. Is this in fact where Allah came from?

The Tower of Babel would have the same history. Also it dates back to 3500-BC. The same situation of Pagan deity and worship. All this pre-dates the Islamic Religion

Matter of Fact the history scholars are sure Mohammads family was Pagan.

Sinai peninsula, in itself translates to “land of sin”? Which again would be consistant with the Pagan deity for the Moon.

I’m “reading” the Abraham connection, but not seeing it in histroy. The history of the language is Hebrew through Mecca, with different sects leading out in all directions. Thus the variations of the language which would be correct anyway.

Isn’t the Islamic holiday Ashura in memory of the Jews who helped Mohammad rise to power?

Don’t get me wrong the history back to Mohammad is significant. Yet once you reach back farther than him, There seems to be no history but of Pagan culture who worshipped various deitys but the significant being the above two.

So the history of the Islamic Faith is dated directly to Mohammed and his writtings and the areas he defeated in war? Thats it?

So the real idea of g-d and prophet comes from Gabriel? Thats the connection? Aside from Mohammad being a great warrior, general of his army etc. I understand all this. I don’t know how you can conclude it even happened, as far as Gabriel bringing a message.

I’m missing the Jesus Christ connection also. Mohammad couldn’t have had any contact with Jesus. The Quran itself comes over 500-years after the Bible. Mohammad lived from 570 to 622 also which whould have put him centurys away from Jesus.

So his understanding of Christ would have only been through what he was told. Thus the confusion over the Trinity. There was actually a small sect living in the North Mecca who falsely understood the Trinity to be what Mohammed describe’s it as. He would have came across these people also. Thus his concept on the Trinity?
 
GaryTaylor said:
I’ll tell ya, the more you research Islam the more strange twists it takes.

If you just begin to research the Archaelogy of the Mecca there are startling contrasts.

Kaaba, Mecca have no relation to Islam by Abraham but through word association. History links this to a Pagan sight with worship to the Sun deity as their primary God and the Moon deity as there secondary. The Moon deity interestingly enough is called “sin” or “Allah”. Kaabe was built as a shrine for the Moon deity. The artifacts which are secured through archaelogy seem to confirm this. Is this in fact where Allah came from?

The Tower of Babel would have the same history. Also it dates back to 3500-BC. The same situation of Pagan deity and worship. All this pre-dates the Islamic Religion

Matter of Fact the history scholars are sure Mohammads family was Pagan.

Sinai peninsula, in itself translates to “land of sin”? Which again would be consistant with the Pagan deity for the Moon.

I’m “reading” the Abraham connection, but not seeing it in histroy. The history of the language is Hebrew through Mecca, with different sects leading out in all directions. Thus the variations of the language which would be correct anyway.

Isn’t the Islamic holiday Ashura in memory of the Jews who helped Mohammad rise to power?

Don’t get me wrong the history back to Mohammad is significant. Yet once you reach back farther than him, There seems to be no history but of Pagan culture who worshipped various deitys but the significant being the above two.

So the history of the Islamic Faith is dated directly to Mohammed and his writtings and the areas he defeated in war? Thats it?

So the real idea of g-d and prophet comes from Gabriel? Thats the connection? Aside from Mohammad being a great warrior, general of his army etc. I understand all this. I don’t know how you can conclude it even happened, as far as Gabriel bringing a message.

I’m missing the Jesus Christ connection also. Mohammad couldn’t have had any contact with Jesus. The Quran itself comes over 500-years after the Bible. Mohammad lived from 570 to 622 also which whould have put him centurys away from Jesus.

So his understanding of Christ would have only been through what he was told. Thus the confusion over the Trinity. There was actually a small sect living in the North Mecca who falsely understood the Trinity to be what Mohammed describe’s it as. He would have came across these people also. Thus his concept on the Trinity?
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I know you are new here and don’t know this, but we have covered these points so many times on here in previous threads.

I’m just saying… 🙂
 
jakasaki said:
I know you are new here and don’t know this, but we have covered these points so many times on here in previous threads.

I’m just saying… 🙂
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Don’t see it, if you know the thread you should link it, its relevant to this thread.😉
 
GaryTaylor said:
Don’t see it, if you know the thread you should link it, its relevant to this thread.😉
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Too many old threads to go & look for … besides, bringing back old threads is frowned upon… 😉

Alrighty then… carry on…!!! 👍
 
peace and blessings, i appreciate you taking the time to post for me
Alcrusader said:
1st of all may all the peace our Lord Jesus Christ be with you,
2sd with all my due respect to you, you seems like your mixing thing together. This maybe because you have an already a previews image on Islam. I dont see a mix please quote me so it is easy for me

1st of all the cross thing I proven.
translate.google.com.lb/translate?u=http://www.arabicbible.com/arabic/a_jesus/a_jesus_crucificationofjesus.htm&sl=ar&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

is very good but from a scholar of history point of view these writings support but do not prove it. Best i have been told many claiming to be the messiah were crucified. In past times i did some on Joshephus, and while it does have good indicators a historian explained to me that it was insufficient to be considered proof.

If the Crucifixion was proved by pagan romans at that time, and since then the cross is the symbol of Christianity, and if the Bible approve this fact, and the OT spoke about it and predicted it, and still you don’t believe in Crucifixion… well I doubt if you believe in Jesus in the 1st place. Best you quote me before we go on, best i see all you are doing is lying about me so best i just stop here, I hold nothing against you for this, peace and blessings may your journey be blessed
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famdigy said:
The point I was making is that the church has no legal authority to permit or deny Muslim immigration and building of mosques because the legal system in place is a secular system.
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That is correct, the church has nothing to do with immigration law nor building permits. There is no occasion in this world, that the church disallow the building of mosques. However, in Islam, especially in Indonesia, though the state allow the church to be built, the muslims by numbers attack those churches. Since they are many, the state has no power to do anything about that.
 
famdigy said:
We’re not in the business of reading into people’s hearts. If a person apostasies and keeps it to himself, then God is his Judge. But when that person publicly declares his apostasy then it’s up to the rest of society to uphold God’s laws with a measured response.
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That is what I call by robbing the power of God. If a person declare himself as apostate, why would the society has the right to punish in the name of God? Has he by being apostate committed any crime by declaring himself to be apostate?

Why don’t you let God himself, deliver the punishment? Do you think that God is incapable to do so?
 
famdigy said:
That’s not correct. Islam is like an institution with many disciples not unlike an educational institution where they offer religious, scientific, economic and political disciples as part of their curriculum.
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In your previous thread, you say that Islam is both faith and legal system. Now you mention that Islam is some sort of an educational institution. That is a different point, my friend. An institution not unlike an educational institution has no power in the legal system. You are contradicting your self.
 
famdigy said:
Apostasy (Irtidad) is of two types
  1. Murtad Fitri (apostate from nature). This person’s parents are both Muslims and was raided as a Muslim but later renounced his Muslim faith.
  2. Murtad Milli (apostate from religion). This person converted to Islam from another religion and then renounced his new Muslim faith.
The Murtad Fitri is to be executed, he’s not asked to repent and no reprieve is granted.
The Murtad Milli is granted a reprieve and his repentance is accepted if he repents and returns to Islam.

It’s not up to us as individuals to seek out apostates and punish them, this is left to the system in a Muslim country which upholds Islamic law.
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Please quote the Quran and/or Hadiths for this.
 
Peace and blessings,
I have reflected and prayed some about some of the posts made in response to what i have said.

As one example
Best i can recollect i have never said i don’t believe in the crucification but now stand accused of saying it.

I am not here to get you to agree with my views, I am not your teacher, guide, authority and so on. Most of you here in your stated religion profess you have one.
You dont have any need of me, some where in your books it should say that we sharpen each other or encourage each other to seek the one truth.

In discussion i am more than happy to allow the advocate to be part of my thinking process.

IMO thats what he was made for, yes he became full of pride and wants to work against me. He was made to be my advocate, that i maybe made straight. Thanks be to G-d for Yeshua (pbwh) the advocate must now submit to me and serve me or be gone from me.

So if i say I cant prove the crucification, why assume i don’t believe in it. You doing this does no harm to me or G-d, but i love you and dont want you to do it to yourself.

If i have said actually said some thing quote it for me so, i can explain where i have not typed well or be corrected. I have no interest in you making statements of what i believe just because it suits you. It is why i try to stay away from CAF, if my posting encourages you to lie i am not helping you be sharp but helping you become burdened.

I only see this because i am no better and have to make some apologies here for my short comings, may G-d forgive us for those we miss, He is most forgiving.

I hope this helps you, and helps you to help me.

May G-d bless and guide us all as we walk together seeking to submit unto Him.
 
Alcrusader said:
Shouldn’t I first wait Muslims to prove that mohammad is in heaven in the firstplace?
All I can tell you is, and it’s a question for all muslims, why did mohammad before he died asked his followers to ask ALLAH to pray on mohammad and ask him that he could allow to mohammad to enter heaven?
…sala allah ala mohamad wa sallam… w lyoskenah fasih jinaneh…

“… May ALLAH pray on mohammad and “tell him hello [in the common sens]” … and may him [ALLAH] allow mohammad to enter his glorious Heaven…”

From here I’m gona start. Why mohammad asked his followers to always pray for him so that “ALLAH” allow him to enter the heaven???
Wasn’t he a prophet??? shouldn’t he pray for us and not we as muslims] pray for him? Isn’t weird ???

Didn’t Mohammad trusted his god, and wasn’t he sure about entering heavens?
Or was he scared that that his god never existed or is not to be trusted in the first place…?
Maybe mohammad was scared about all his sins from killing to raping to steeling to allowing many things were forbidden in the past…?
this is a Hadith, from Sahih Moslim, Book 031, Number 5986:

A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) at the time of breathing his last was reclining against her chest and she was leaning over him and listening to him as he was saying: O Allah, grant me pardon, show mercy to me, enjoin me to companions
(on High).

the bad thing is that it is not precisely translated to english!!!

and this is the arabic version which is more precise.



‏حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن الزبرقان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏موسى بن عقبة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏
‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏سددوا ‏ ‏وقاربوا ‏ ‏وأبشروا فإنه لا يدخل أحدا الجنة عمله قالوا ولا أنت يا رسول الله قال ولا أنا إلا أن يتغمدني الله بمغفرة ورحمة ‏
‏قال أظنه ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي النضر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏وقال ‏ ‏عفان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏وهيب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏موسى بن عقبة ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏أبا سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏سددوا ‏ ‏وأبشروا ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏مجاهد ‏
‏قولا سديدا ‏
‏وسدادا صدقا
​
the main point is that mohammad say that " … Behold you people non is going to enter the heaven for his works, and they asked him, not even you prophet? He said, not even me! Only if ALLAH grant me pardon and showed me mercy… etc"
this is surah maryam 19: 71- 72
  1. Code: 
     Not one of you but will pass over it (Hell): this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.
  2. Code: 
     But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrongdoers therein, (humbled) to their knees.
and the arabic version says


وان منكم الا واردها . كان على ربك حتما مقضيا. ثم ننجي الذين اتقوا ونذروا الظالمين فيها جثيا
( سوره مريم 71-72)
​

and it means that non of you [Muslims] will not go to hell! this means, each muslim gonna visit hell after he dies, and their he even could stay for ever in the fire and misery, or go away from it. But what’s 100% certain is that EACH MUSLIM GONNA ENTER HELL! Even Mohammad him self, since he’s muslim too.
and above that all we have this devastating verse in
آل عمران 54
وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ​

Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

and this means

And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.

DID you BELIEVED THAT???

THE QURAN SAY THAT ALLAH/GOD IS THE BEST CHEATER!!! EVEN THE BEST OF THE CHEATERS!!

look how Muslim reacted about it when they translated their book to other language! LOOK WHAT THEY DID!

this is Surah Âl 'Imran (3:54) in English version]

They [unbelievers] planned and God planned. But God is the best of planners. (Surah Al 'Imran, 3:54)

The WORD “CHEATER” BECAME “PLANER”!!!

See how The LIES Start To Falls?!

need more info. read here: answering-islam.org/Quran/Versions/003.054.html

how muslim gona reply? :::::: > Their is 2 kind of cheats, an Good one and a bad one.
and certainly the cheating of ALLAH is the good one.

plz don’t luff !! this is how muslim respond on it! I deals with muslims on forums all the time, and they all anwser the same thing!

Is there “A GOOD CHEAT” AND “A BAD CHEAT” in the first place??

And watch out!, “Cheating” ( in arabic مكر - or ماكر) is one of the characteristics of ALLAH, or called 99 names of allah

could any one trust a cheater person], if no… what if it is a god who is a cheater???
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No wonder they have the theory that the person who was crucified on that Friday afternoon was not Jesus.
 
Steven_John said:
AsSalum o Aliekum Brother,
I give thanks to Allah for your posting to me.
I did not do too well in my asking brother John to see where i was coming from as i was speaking of some Christians explanation of Moses (pbuh) of the second time seeking water.

As i am very small here it is best i ask posters rather than shooting my mouth of. Allah teaches me to be humble so as to lest my errors that none of you be mislead.

The reason for the original post was to explain the prophets (pbut) can make error, that error does not mean they are not prophets based on Christian teaching and books not the Quran as they differ.

I would have done better by him should i have stated better what i was speaking of, may Allah forgive me as He is most forgiving and merciful.

May Allah bless and guide you and yours
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That is correct, brother. Prophets can make mistakes/sins. It is also true that God is the most forgiving and merciful, so prophets should already be in heaven now. The question is, why don’t we believe that if God is forgiving and merciful, then prophets should be in heaven.

It is understandable for me if Muhammad asked to be prayed. But, if the muslims believe that Muhammad is the Prophet of God, then they should firmly believe that Muhammad is in heaven now.
 
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