Understanding Islamic Views

[Cinette]

*Elwill - please answer my questions in Post #387.

Thank you
Cinette*

 

[swariffin]

quran said that abraham and mosa and jachob and jesus and followers of jesus and joseph and many other prophets that they are muslims
they didn’t see mohammed (pbuh) and they never talked arabic to say shahada , that’s why i described for you what the quran means in general when it mentions “islam” or " muslim"

Nice answer. Let say there is somebody in the middle of Gobi dessert in Mongolia. Having no knowledge to the outside world. But, he is very afraid of God, believe there must be a powerful and yet benevolent being who allow him to live in whatever condition he enjoy. He like to help other people, doing good deeds, saying prayer (off course to his own standard of praying). Say that he live after the era of Muhammad. Can he be a muslim too by definition?

whatever i believe that all prophets came with the same core massage " to worship God alone and obey him "
when mosas came with this massage his followers surely believed in mosas as prophet from God
followers of abraham surely believed that abraham is a prophet from God
followers of jachob surely believed he is a prophet from God
from islamic point of view . followers of jesus believed that jesus is a prophet from God

the same with muslims who are followers to the last prophet of the same relegion of allah "islam ", they witnessed that mohammed is their prophet from God

Let us make a comparison. Take Moses for example. Who is the first who call Moses as prophet? His followers or himself?. Now, who call Mohammad as prophet? His followers or himself?

from another point of view
in the judgment day , we believe that only muslims will enter paradise
who are muslims ?
true followers of jesus and true followers of mosas and true followers of mohammed and true followers of each prophet are muslims

Nice description. Who determine the “True” follower of Jesus or “True” follower of Moses.

 

[swariffin]

may be it was imposed by God to maintain unity and uniformity among worshipers.

When God came to Moses, God said that (Exodus 3:5) “And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”. So, where ever Allah come to human being, the place is called holy ground. And, that place can be anywhere.

Now, if for the sake of unity and uniformity among the worshippers, Allah only mention one specific holy ground (there can never be other place to be the direction of praying), then Allah can only make KaBah/Mecca to become the holy ground, not other places. That means, according to Muhammad, Allah is limited. I sincerely believe that Muhammad never has that kind of thinking.

When you say “May be”, that means you are not sure yourself about your answer. But, I don’t blame you. You have tried your best, and I appreciate that. Keep on searching, my friend. The more you know your religion (i.e what you believe) the better it will be for you. Surely Allah will bless you.

 

[elwill]

Tell me - if you were to convert to Christianity what would your family and friends say? What would they do? Would you still be welcome in their midst?

my family and friends may forsake me and i will not be wellcomed in their midst

Do you have freewill?

yes

 

[elwill]

When God came to Moses, God said that (Exodus 3:5) “And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”. So, where ever Allah come to human being, the place is called holy ground. And, that place can be anywhere.

agree

Now, if for the sake of unity and uniformity among the worshippers, Allah only mention one specific holy ground (there can never be other place to be the direction of praying), then Allah can only make KaBah/Mecca to become the holy ground, not other places. That means, according to Muhammad, Allah is limited. I sincerely believe that Muhammad never has that kind of thinking.

i can’t understand your logic , but i respect it
allah united the direction and not the place , so that other places in the world can to be holy places for muslims , not just mekkah

When you say “May be”, that means you are not sure yourself about your answer. But, I don’t blame you. You have tried your best, and I appreciate that**. Keep on searching, my friend. The more you know your religion (i.e what you believe) the better it will be for you.** Surely Allah will bless you.

i say "may be " because i know that i’m human , and my answer may be not perfect , may be their are other reasons which i don’t know

thanx for your advice , i will work on it

 

[Cinette]

my family and friends may forsake me and i will not be wellcomed in their midst.
If one of my children were to convert to Islam I would be sad in my heart but I would not forsake them - I would continue to love and support them. However, I would pray that God open their heart and mind to the true Faith. Similarly, if any of my friends were to convert I would not turn my back on them. I would pray for them.

yes

*This freewill you say you have - did Allah give it to you?

God bless you Elwill -
Cinette*

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Elwill,

Hope you are doing OK…have briefly looked at the threads…off tomorrow…will reflect and pray on the link you shared…I read it two times but have to make time to read it better…too rushed.

God bless you…God LOVES you!

Kathleen

 

[elwill]

*This freewill you say you have - did Allah give it to you?

God bless you Elwill -
Cinette*

allah gave the free will to all humans to believe or disbelieve

may be i misunderstand your question

 

[KathleenGee]

Elwill,

I have read and reflected on your link. I probably will add more later.

What I find interesting is that for one to begin a spiritual walk, Islam condemns all other forms of asceticism-- means to achieve spiritual life – but that it bases its own spiritual life on MAN. We base our spiritual life on God. It all centers on God…He is the center of our life.

Christians and Jews begin spiritual life by embracing God…a relationship.

The Jews are God’s Chosen people to bring the Messiah; but it was also predicted in Scripture that they would reject the Messiah…but this is because the Messiah not only came for them but for all mankind.

The salvation thus is found in GOD MAN. Not in us as the base.

Secondly, in Islam God gives commands. We recognize that God gave simple commands in His creation of the world. But again, when He created Man, it was not merely creating a man to obey Him, but it was to honor Him through the gift of creation, and cooperating with God in having dominion over all things.

So we do not acknowledge God as someone simply to obey His commands, but to be in relationship with Him. Yes, God gave us the 10 commandments. He gave the Jewish people the Sinai Covenant that many laws and regulations to protect their race and progeny, not for their own exaltation but to bring forth some day the Messiah.

When the GOD MAN Jesus Christ fulfilled His mission on earth, He also fulfilled the Sinai Covenant, and the law that is now in effect is the New Covenant, based on we reconnected to God the Father through Jesus Christ our Redeemer.

We like Muslims, seek to do God’s will, as do the Jews. It is all based on faith in God and faith in the life God has given us, and to make good out of it, no matter the circumstances. Just seeking His will is a form of ascetism which Islam prematurely condemns. Considering the 7 times Catholic monks pray a day, and they do live an ascetic life, it looks like Islam is already condemning their spiritual walk.

Both Muslims and Christians seek union with God’s will as perfection. But Christians, through Jesus Christ, see fulfillment of God’s will as loving God with one’s whole heart, soul, and mind, and loving one’s neighbor as one’s self, and forgiving one’s enemies…the focus is on love and treating others the way you want to be treated.

Islam furthers states that the spiritual life is best fulfilled in community. We are the same.

The specifics to attain God through Islam, Judaism, Christianity is prayer. Christians can pray to God continually.

Continual prayer is a Catholic term…it is having one’s will constantly oriented toward God, seeking the will of God. We do not break up prayer into 5 times a day.

We thus cannot judge a person’s outward disposition of where he truly is in God. Christ told us not to shout or pray on street corners or show our devotion by fancy and symbolic clothes like peoples in His times did. Christ also asks we go to our room and close the door to pray to the Father…in this way our reward is in heaven because we are serving God alone, and not for other people’s esteem of us, which is a reward of this earth., This is a prayer form that is continual…we live in God’s presence even as we work in an office or work machinery,…we seek God’s will to be and act in God’s presence, to conform our entire self as we live…be in God’s will and it is life time work.

Third, Muslims are to help their brethren. Christians and Jews do the same. Christ takes it farther…He says those who love their families…what good is that…he talks of the poor, the widow, again, here our enemies…do good to those who persecute you.

Thus, what is tremendous about Christ the God Man, the Son of Man, is that He re-unites us with all mankind.

Pilgrimage…the ancient Christians would make pilgrimages to the Holy Land in Jerusalem. There have been many times Christians could not make pilgrimages to Jerusalem. Jerusalem/Israel is the origin of our religion and of the Jews.

Jihad…Muslims are encouraged up to martyrdom to spread Islam. A Muslim spreads Islam through tongue, pen and sword.

Christ told Christians many times about choosing Him over the things of this world, over all human ties. He said the criteria was to pick up one’s cross – the acceptance of the difficulties of life, and to follow Him, to be a servant to others. He called us to worship Him, and through Him, be restored to the Father, and to nurture us on His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity through the Eucharist. It is not about triumphing over others, to have power over others, to condemn or to kill others. Jesus is not about killing because it violates the sanctity of all human life.

So I think a basic premise between Christianity and Islam is that, although we both seek to be in union with God/Allah, the Christians seeks union through love of God and neighbor – not just Catholics or other Christians.

Christians are supposed to forgive. The Catholic Church has asked the world forgiveness for its past sins. This is the strength and action of Jesus Christ working through the Church.

I would say Christianity is more focused as well as being in relationship with God as His beloved.

 

[Cinette]

allah gave the free will to all humans to believe or disbelieve

may be i misunderstand your question

*If Allah gave people the freedom to choose, why do Muslims kill those who leave the faith???

Cinette*

 

[KathleenGee]

The God I believe in has given me total liberty…especially through Christ. The greatest experience in Christ happens within us. We do not go to war in His name.

We did to protect the pilgrims and the holy sites in Jerusalem. The Crusades happened 400 years after the conquest of Islam.

You do not see Christians or Jews going to war against the Hajj or other sacred sites. We do not need to and we do not have this passion to take over or make war or kill or want to enslave or dominate. We have respect for other religions’ sacred sites.

The Catholic worship never condemns other religions or ridicule them. We pray for all people of the world in our churches. We go out to help any poor person, Christian or not.

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, we find strength about the God we believe in because He is so big he can allow us freedom, because He wants us to be His children and not His slaves.

Thus even our outward prayer form is in reverence, but our posture is never that of a slave.

 

[KathleenGee]

Elwill,

Here is a Scripture reading here at Mass this past Sunday. It reflects that contemplation I shared with you from Fr Rohr.

Colossians Chapter 3: "If then you were raised with Christ, seek what is above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

Think of what is above, not of what is on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

When Christ your life appears, then you too will appear with Him in glory.

Put to death then, the parts of you that are earthly – immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and the greed that is idolatry.

Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all and in all."

Note that there is no reference to abstaining from certain foods or alcohol, that God really has no favorites, that the real focus is dying to self and gaining new life from the God Man…

Our God does not make demands and we obey, so to speak…we follow the 10 commandments, but the focus is more on having a new life in Christ, to be hidden with Him in this world, and appearing with Him in the next life — no carnal rewards…

But for our daily asceticism of allowing the life of Christ within us, our reward in the next life with be Christ Himself.

 

[elwill]

*If Allah gave people the freedom to choose, why do Muslims kill those who leave the faith???

Cinette*

some muslims believe that the apostates should to be killed , i thought that myself in the past

now, i have another view , and i don’t believe that apostates should to be killed according to islam

 

[KathleenGee]

God bless you, Elwill…do not change…you are walking in God in a more enlightened way when you respect all of human life.

We cannot judge or take matter into our own hands. Scripture says not to be envious of the evil man because some day he will be gone.

 

[cathdoki]

some muslims believe that the apostates should to be killed , i thought that myself in the past

now, i have another view , and i don’t believe that apostates should to be killed according to islam

If that’s the case, then you are contradicting your sacred text.

 

[famdigy]

some muslims believe that the apostates should to be killed , i thought that myself in the past

now, i have another view , and i don’t believe that apostates should to be killed according to Islam

To put it in perspective. Apostasy in Islam is equal to treason. Treasons is punishable by death in many places around the world. and is not limited to political or military matters.

For example in England, Treason still includes non-political or military matters like polluting the royal bloodline, and until 1998 it was a crime punishable by death under the Treason Act.

In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur’ãn occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, and Prophethood form the constitution of Islam.

Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it’s a source of fitna, public upheaval & anarchy. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for it.

An apostate can be of two types:

1. a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. The person has apostated from the faith in which he was born.
2. a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam

The death penalty for apostasy is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.

 

[cathdoki]

To put it in perspective. Apostasy in Islam is equal to treason. Treasons is punishable by death in many places around the world. and is not limited to political or military matters.

For example in England, Treason still includes non-political or military matters like polluting the royal bloodline, and until 1998 it was a crime punishable by death under the Treason Act.

In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur’ãn occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, and Prophethood form the constitution of Islam.

Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it’s a source of fitna, public upheaval & anarchy. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for it.

An apostate can be of two types:

1. a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. The person has apostated from the faith in which he was born.
2. a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam

The death penalty for apostasy is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.

So, different punishments for different people? I fully understand islam and the horror it exudes. Where are the “good” people condemning al-queda and the taliban and all the islamists that are terrorizing the planet. Where are the “good” mulsims that speak out against suicide bomgings? Where are the “good” muslims out there denouncing the attroucities of these criminals. If they are afraid to speak out, then they do not worship God. The God of Abraham, the God of Christianity, the God of Judaism.

Sorry, that’s how I see it. You can either be persecuted for standing up for what is right or just sit back and make excuses.

 

[KathleenGee]

Famigdy,

To kill a Muslim for wanting to follow a different faith walk is murder. The God we believe gives us life, helps us live better and more productive lives.

 

[famdigy]

Famigdy,

To kill a Muslim for wanting to follow a different faith walk is murder. The God we believe gives us life, helps us live better and more productive lives.

Would you consider killing in self defence also murder? maybe, but it’s justifiable when protecting something sacred like life, property, and well-being from physical harm.

How about killing for other sacred values like freedom, is that also murder?

and who gets to decide what is sacred and what isn’t?