Understanding Islamic Views

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The problem I am seeing in Islam is the lack of common humanity with other people, the inability to admit its wrongs and its means of expansion.

There are aspects to expansion that to us violate not only the 10 commandments but the commands and way of Christ. We Christians and Jews are equal to Muslims, we are the same human beings as your humans…we pray, we seek God’s will, we try to give and share.

Islam has declared war on us, and yet during this time our country allows mosques and freedom of worship for Muslims. That is because our faith is strong, our God is all Omnipotent.

What about our rights…we are entitled to the same rights and concerns as you. But we don’t kill our children if they go into another religion. We try to help them, we grieve, but we do not kill our children.

Because then doing so in the name of God makes God very petty and jealous and weak…who has little insight into common humanity and sentiments Muslims and Christians share. We all seek to do God’s will. But we don’t kill. And God plays no favorites.
 
To kill one’s children in sacrifice to a deity is the spirit of Moloch and it is pagan, it is of the Serpent.

In such families, people do not fully trust each other…one could be killed for not wearing a scarf as has happened in the West.
 
To kill one’s children in sacrifice to a deity is the spirit of Moloch and it is pagan, it is of the Serpent.

In such families, people do not fully trust each other…one could be killed for not wearing a scarf as has happened in the West.

And that is saying alot. I do not believe all Muslims do such things. This killing is the work of fanatics who control the freedom of Muslims throughout the world.

Someday they will lose their power and control.
 
My question to Muslims:

What were Muhammed’s final words???

Did Muhammed say ‘Kill the infidels’? Is that true?

Christ’s last words, ‘Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do…It is finished.’

Christians and Jews will die for what they believe in.

Is it true a Muslim martyr will use the sword of Jihad to kill someone because of his beliefs?

Not all Muslims think that…

False gods always demand the blood of innocents. (Sorry about the added post.)
 
So the Jewish and Christian perspective can create a very productive and life giving world.

Not always…but I am referring to truly devout, religious believers here. The Christians and Jews pray for all humanity and their well-being. We do it at my Catholic church, I have attended Protestant churches, and have attended services at synagogues. We pray for all mankind.

For us to kill in God’s name, especially on the personal or religious level --and not in warfare, to kill in God’s name is a blasphemy.
 
KathleenGee said:
Islam has declared war on us, and yet during this time our country allows mosques and freedom of worship for Muslims. That is because our faith is strong, our God is all Omnipotent.
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It’s the fanatical Muslims that declared war on the west and It’s not right to characterize all Muslims as being hateful towards you. Secondly, the provisions for freedom of worship is not born out of Christianity because the legal system which made those provisions is a secular system.

Unlike Christianity, Islam is both a faith and a legal system. It presides over the spiritual, economic, and social aspects of our lives. Therefore, when Judging Islam’s legal rulings it’s important to look at them through the prism of the legal systems.

Christianity is practised only in the spiritual realm. The western world does not recognize a Christian legislative branch in the courts if such thing even exist. It’s a secular legal system which deals with issues relating to crime & punishment.

The Christian faith doesn’t address social, and economic issues and as a result a secular system was created to compensate for that. Don’t get the wrong idea, I have nothing against the secular system and I believe it is the best system in the absence of an infallible Imam.

In Islam, it’s the legislative branch of Islam which deals with issues of crime & punishment. I agree it hasn’t been implemented correctly but that doesn’t invalidate the principal that such laws were intended to serve the greater good of society.

Going back to the issue of apostasy and treason. Why does political treason carry such a harsh punishment? and why is it that sometimes non-political or non-military matters are stretched to be included as acts of treason?

Who gets to decide what is treason and what isn’t and what the measured punishment is?
It’s usually a body or an assembly with high legislative powers. Well in Islam, God is the greatest legislator with the highest legislative powers.

In Christianity there is no room for God to legislate laws but there is in Islam and we believe God knows best what is good for society.
 
Hi Famdigy,

The Catholic Church was in itself temporal power; Constantine made Christianity the religion of that part of the world. Europe had its monarchies. But the Church has always taught civil rights.

The breakdown of Christian unity and the rise of the Renaissance gave way to people focusing more on their self-development through education, science, philosophy. But the Catholic Church was the very institution that provided education for the common people, all up through the university level, founded hospitals and hospice with many religious organizations serving those in need.

The encroachment of the secular world in the Western Hemisphere has been deliberate and against the will of the people, fulfilled primarily through the Legal Court system…the branch Thomas Jefferson stated was most susceptible to abuse and gaining control of the American people.

If you look at a geographical map of the USA, it is vastly conservative and religious. It is the high concentration of coastal cities with some inland that carry the greatest power. I am in a region where votes along the Coast here are used to vote for local people. But we have a super majority of a certain party in this state, so there is nothing we can do to deal with the corruption. But this is why we also have the electoral college so one part of the country won’t control the rest. But our religious freedom are waning under the seculars.

Italy is the home to western Christianity and the universal faith. It is the Catholic’s center. And yet the Church has been accommodating Islam and allowing mosques to be built. We do not see that reciprocity in Islam. We are very aware and watching. And even in our generosity, we believe that our faith is the true faith because it reveals the fullness of Who God is.

The separation of church and state was erected none other by the fundamentalists hundreds of years ago, and it has come back to bite us all…it was a stealth ruling in essence against the Catholic populace coming here, we the most enduring persecuted entity in the country. Subsequently, those of us who are independent Catholics, are literally devoid and disregard ideology, and look instead for educated and concrete answers to our society problems.

We believe that the family is the basis of society. That one I missed but meant to share with the Muslims. But we see man and woman in partnership, equal voice.

Furthermore, we have the great gem of social justice. And the Church has condemned usury and has always defended the rights of the human being going back to Christ Himself. In those days, slavery in various places, including Israel is not the same image one would have of slaves in ancient Rome. In Jewish culture, a person was ‘owned’ until a debt was paid.

I think if Muslims would spend time openly studying Catholicism, its contribution to the welfare of society, I would think perhaps there would not be such a fear and contempt for Christianity. We are living in a world where it is consistent that anything that is contrary to Scripture is the rule of the land. Secular forces have been working on our culture to proliferate pornography since the early 1950’s in America, and they knew they succeeded when people began to accept abortion as birth control…People worshipping themselves and their passions and the blood of the innocent the sacrifice for their hedonist ways.

When Christians fall, they fall so low. I read all the time how the Muslims think their religion superior to everyone. I find great leadership in the Holy Father who is always calling people to peace, love, and justice for all in humility.

The Christian way is to bring others to Christ, rather than to force, impose, sue, take over as we have been seeing now for some time…you don’t win friends that way. The Catholic Church in Italy has been very respectful and supportive of Muslims building mosques there. But we do not see this reciprocity in Muslim countries. So there is something again lacking in basic humanity in the Muslim religion to be so one sided.

And in the Church’s generosity, one must not read into that either. We believe our faith is the one true faith because it reveals and teaches most deeply Who God is.
 
famdigy said:
The Christian faith doesn’t address social, and economic issues and as a result a secular system was created to compensate for that. Don’t get the wrong idea, I have nothing against the secular system and I believe it is the best system in the absence of an infallible Imam.
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I would have to say that is a profound statement on your part. The same ignorance that most muslims have. Christianity does address social and economic issues. Your ignorance of Christianity shows you’ve never read the TRUE GOSPELS. Just the heresy of the koran.
 
famdigy said:
It’s the fanatical Muslims that declared war on the west and It’s not right to characterize all Muslims as being hateful towards you. Secondly, the provisions for freedom of worship is not born out of Christianity because the legal system which made those provisions is a secular system.

Unlike Christianity, Islam is both a faith and a legal system. It presides over the spiritual, economic, and social aspects of our lives. Therefore, when Judging Islam’s legal rulings it’s important to look at them through the prism of the legal systems.

Christianity is practised only in the spiritual realm. The western world does not recognize a Christian legislative branch in the courts if such thing even exist. It’s a secular legal system which deals with issues relating to crime & punishment.

The Christian faith doesn’t address social, and economic issues and as a result a secular system was created to compensate for that. Don’t get the wrong idea, I have nothing against the secular system and I believe it is the best system in the absence of an infallible Imam.

In Islam, it’s the legislative branch of Islam which deals with issues of crime & punishment. I agree it hasn’t been implemented correctly but that doesn’t invalidate the principal that such laws were intended to serve the greater good of society.

Going back to the issue of apostasy and treason. Why does political treason carry such a harsh punishment? and why is it that sometimes non-political or non-military matters are stretched to be included as acts of treason?

Who gets to decide what is treason and what isn’t and what the measured punishment is?
It’s usually a body or an assembly with high legislative powers. Well in Islam, God is the greatest legislator with the highest legislative powers.

In Christianity there is no room for God to legislate laws but there is in Islam and we believe God knows best what is good for society.
Click to expand...
BTW, not only are you a heretic against Christianity, but you as a twelver are heretics amongst the overwhelming majority of muslims.
 
I think Muslims are not allowed to read Catholic sources.

Famdigy, did you know that the Vatican has the largest library in the world???

I have read articles that the Muslim expansionists wanted to take over the Vatican two times, but the next time they will succeed. This is greed and political passion hell bent on world control, wouldn’t you think??

Famdigy, why do you think Christians and Jews do not want to take over Medina or Mecca? You don’t have to answer…but to us it is very telling.

And I have ‘told’ enough. You can go online to the Vatican and find many documents open to the public. You may like reading the encyclical by John Paul II, ‘Veritatis Splendor’…‘The Splendor of Truth’ or his economic work, ‘Centesimus Annus’.

May be we should do a comparative between the teachings of Islam on contemporary world politics and John Paul’s letter on the 1991 ‘Centesimus Annus’…
 
elwill said:
some muslims believe that the apostates should to be killed , i thought that myself in the past

now, i have another view , and i don’t believe that apostates should to be killed according to islam
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*I am pleased to hear that Elwill.

As you know we believe that Christianity replaced Judaism…or rather it added to it as the coming of the Messiah was the fulfillment of the Jewish Faith. Although we believe that we are the one true Church we respect others and believe that the peoples of the 3 great religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - are Monotheistic. There is only one God and although we may have a different name for God we all worship the one God. That is a point of departure, the one thing we have in common. As a Muslim you do not understand or accept that we Christian Catholics believe in one God because you do not understand the mystery of the Trinity. We do not understand it either really and it one of the great mysteries of our Faith and when one reads the inspired Word of God in the Scriptures the Trinity is there. “Go and baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…” (in fact, it can be found in other parts of the scriptures as well…) As someone explained “three centres of consciousness”. We Catholics look at God as our Father. Even Jesus gave us the prayer “Our Father who art in heaven…” That intimacy does not mean there is a lack of respect. No it is an expression of the love we have for our Heavenly Father. The family is so important to society and we develop an intimate relationship with our God through the Holy Family - Mary is our Mother - our heavenly Mother.

We have no way of conceiving what Eternal Life will be like but we know one thing - it must be something absolutely beyond imagination. For our God to take the nature of a human being to come to live and die among us, to teach us how to live our lives, to suffer for us… means that it is very important that we follow Him and His commandments.

Gosh Elwill it is nearly 5 o’clock in the morning and I am getting carried away!! I have a hot bath waiting for me and I must run. Thanks for the conversation.

God bless you
Cinette:)
 
famdigy said:
To put it in perspective. Apostasy in Islam is equal to treason. Treasons is punishable by death in many places around the world. and is not limited to political or military matters.

For example in England, Treason still includes non-political or military matters like polluting the royal bloodline, and until 1998 it was a crime punishable by death under the Treason Act.

In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur’ãn occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, and Prophethood form the constitution of Islam.

Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it’s a source of fitna, public upheaval & anarchy. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for it.

An apostate can be of two types:
  1. a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. The person has apostated from the faith in which he was born.
  2. a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam
The death penalty for apostasy is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.
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*Thank you for the explanation which confirms what we know about Islam. We believe that this is barbaric and harsh.

God has given all people free will - we can choose - we follow our conscience (the conscience must be well formed if we are to make good choices of course). No earthly man can condemn another for apostasy - THAT IS GOD’S role. God is the sole judge of our eternal souls and he is merciful. God understands our circumstances and he judges us fairly and mercifully. No human being on this earth can take the place of God and make such judgments on another human being. We are free to choose. Even then, God will not condemn us if we make the wrong choice through certain circumstances.

May God have mercy on you
Cinette:) *
 
famdigy said:
To put it in perspective. Apostasy in Islam is equal to treason. Treasons is punishable by death in many places around the world. and is not limited to political or military matters.

For example in England, Treason still includes non-political or military matters like polluting the royal bloodline, and until 1998 it was a crime punishable by death under the Treason Act.

In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur’ãn occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, and Prophethood form the constitution of Islam.

Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it’s a source of fitna, public upheaval & anarchy. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for it.

An apostate can be of two types:
  1. a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. The person has apostated from the faith in which he was born.
  2. a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam
The death penalty for apostasy is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.
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Do you believe that Allah can punish? If so, why don’t you let Allah give the punishment to the apostate? You are robbing the power of Allah.
 
famdigy said:
Would you consider killing in self defence also murder? maybe, but it’s justifiable when protecting something sacred like life, property, and well-being from physical harm.

How about killing for other sacred values like freedom, is that also murder?

and who gets to decide what is sacred and what isn’t?
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Good point. Who gets to decide what is apostasy and is not?
 
Famdigy,

Isn’t that concept of killing someone for leaving Islam like what happens to a woman (usually) who leaves an abusive and mentally insufficient spouse who cannot see her dignity as a human being but more as chattal…a slave?

You must do this or that or you will die. This is how totalitarian societies are.

God bless you!
 
famdigy said:
Unlike Christianity, Islam is both a faith and a legal system. It presides over the spiritual, economic, and social aspects of our lives. Therefore, when Judging Islam’s legal rulings it’s important to look at them through the prism of the legal systems.
Click to expand...
That is an acknowledgement that Islam cannot differentiate between religion and state. Therefore, Islam cannot differentiate between Prophets and Presidents/Sultans/Kings/Emperor/Whatever leader you can name it. No wonder that Muhammad has chosen to be a prophet. A president/sultan/king/emperor can be overthrown, but a prophet cannot. But, in case of Muhammad, while he became a prophet he did enjoy the facility and power of being a king.
 
cathdoki said:
I would have to say that is a profound statement on your part. The same ignorance that most muslims have. Christianity does address social and economic issues. Your ignorance of Christianity shows you’ve never read the TRUE GOSPELS. Just the heresy of the koran.
Click to expand...
Good Point. Our muslim friend, Famdigy, cannot differentiate Christianity and Idealism. He did not see, or decided not to see the good things done by Mother Theresa, for example.
 
famdigy said:
Would you consider killing in self defence also murder? maybe, but it’s justifiable when protecting something sacred like life, property, and well-being from physical harm.

How about killing for other sacred values like freedom, is that also murder?

and who gets to decide what is sacred and what isn’t?
Click to expand...
*God decides - God is the ultimate Judge.

I am appalled at the way you think - I am appalled at the barbaric things you believe. The way Fathers kill their daughters for choosing the “wrong” man!! A Father who does that cannot love - he has no heart. To kill someone who follows his/her conscience by embracing another faith is wicked and barbaric.

I pray every day that Muslims will come to know, love and serve the one true God.

Cinette:*)
 
KathleenGee said:
To kill one’s children in sacrifice to a deity is the spirit of Moloch and it is pagan, it is of the Serpent.

In such families, people do not fully trust each other…one could be killed for not wearing a scarf as has happened in the West.

And that is saying alot. I do not believe all Muslims do such things. This killing is the work of fanatics who control the freedom of Muslims throughout the world.

Someday they will lose their power and control.
Click to expand...
*I have met Turkish Muslims who were the sweetest and gentlist people who love and respect. They have gone back to Turkey but I will contact their offices here and talk to them. We socialised a lot and went to some concerts and on one occasion one of the ladies Aisha was saying that she had read the New Testament. These Muslims were far more reasonable. They were loving and I cannot imagine them killing…

:)*
 
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