Understanding Latin?

[why_me]

I have a discussion going on in the non-catholic section of the forum. I made a claim that most ordinary catholics would not understand the latin in a Tridentine mass nor would they be able to understand latin in general. Would I be correct in my judgement?

I am interested in your opinions. It was suggested that I post such a question here. My antagonist on the non-catholic section disagreed with me and suggested I seek you people out for your opinion.

 

[kellywlorenz]

the understanding of latin would come with time but in the missal latin is on one page and the english translation is on the other. so i don’t understand the argument on not liking the latin traditional mass because a person does not know latin.

 

[whizkid43]

I have a discussion going on in the non-catholic section of the forum. I made a claim that most ordinary catholics would not understand the latin in a Tridentine mass nor would they be able to understand latin in general. Would I be correct in my judgement?

I am interested in your opinions. It was suggested that I post such a question here. My antagonist on the non-catholic section disagreed with me and suggested I seek you people out for your opinion.

I think you are correct, most people would not know Latin. I also agree with kellywlorenz that the understanding would come with time.

FWIW, I watched mass on EWTN last night and the Consecration of the Eucharist was in Latin and I, for one, would look forward to the option of going to Latin Mass.

 

[why_me]

the understanding of latin would come with time but in the missal latin is on one page and the english translation is on the other. so i don’t understand the argument on not liking the latin traditional mass because a person does not know latin.

No, that is not the discussion. The discussion is about just how many ordinary catholics would understand the latin in the mass. I said very few. I have found it rather difficult to follow along with the english translation during the tridentine mass. I couldn’t follow the priest’s latin with the translation because I do not know latin and when the mass is sung, it is even more difficult.

I also think that during a tridentine mass, following along with a missal, might be a little strange since the mass is prayerful and reverant but I could be wrong. Our mind should be on god and not on the missal if I understand the meaning of the mass correctly.

 

[why_me]

I think you are correct, most people would not know Latin. I also agree with kellywlorenz that the understanding would come with time.

FWIW, I watched mass on EWTN last night and the Consecration of the Eucharist was in Latin and I, for one, would look forward to the option of going to Latin Mass.

It is something to look forward to. Here are some videos to help you along:

youtube.com/watch?v=R6AOvStZS64

youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE&feature=related

 

[ibkc]

Guys, why me is a Mormon with a strong testimony for the revelations of Joseph Smith, who is trying to convince us he is also Catholic who serves as a lector in his parish, and that he attends the TLM with nuns. During the course of the discussion it came up that he didn’t think there were any scripture readings in the TLM. It has been pointed out to him numerous times that the missal is bilingual, but he clings to the argument that it is impossible for any average Catholic to have any idea what is going on because the language is Latin. My argument is that if you are Catholic, you should know what’s going on in the Mass even if you don’t know any Latin. The order of the mass doesn’t change, and there is always scripture.

Complicated, I know.

 

[rubicon147]

No, that is not the discussion. The discussion is about just how many ordinary catholics would understand the latin in the mass. I said very few. I have found it rather difficult to follow along with the english translation during the tridentine mass. I couldn’t follow the priest’s latin with the translation because I do not know latin and when the mass is sung, it is even more difficult.

I also think that during a tridentine mass, following along with a missal, might be a little strange since the mass is prayerful and reverant but I could be wrong. Our mind should be on god and not on the missal if I understand the meaning of the mass correctly.

i have attended a few of the tridentine masses and i did take two years of latin in high school so i do have an advantage with the language but the thing is that the priest is the one saying the prayers for us with very few responses needed from the congregation. the tridentine mass is all about praying to God and not like the current mass which always makes me feel like we are praying to the priest. the reason why i say this is that when you go to mass watch and keep your heart open to God and you will in just a few times attending will understand the latin even if you cant translate it. i am rereading this and i know that it doesn’t make much sense but when you do go to a latin mass i think what i said will make a lot of sense to you. when you are there the language does not seem like a problem. i have taken a few nonCatholic friends to the tridentine mass and they all told me that it was incredible and that not even knowing latin they were more interested in being a Catholic then they ever have been.

also with all the singing i think you watched a high mass which you do not always get you will more likely attend more low masses and there is not any singing and very few responses.

 

[laudamus_te]

No, that is not the discussion. The discussion is about just how many ordinary catholics would understand the latin in the mass. I said very few. I have found it rather difficult to follow along with the english translation during the tridentine mass. I couldn’t follow the priest’s latin with the translation because I do not know latin and when the mass is sung, it is even more difficult.

The understanding of Latin does come with time and experience with the TLM. It’s just like anything else that you read or hear repeatedly over a period of time. It is a little difficult at first to listen to the priest and keep up with the English translation, but it quickly becomes second nature. Of course, the main portion of the Mass, the Canon, is silent anyway so all that is needed is to read the translated prayers.

I really don’t understand why some people get so worked up about Latin. It’s not that big of a deal.

I also think that during a tridentine mass, following along with a missal, might be a little strange since the mass is prayerful and reverant but I could be wrong. Our mind should be on god and not on the missal if I understand the meaning of the mass correctly.

Our mind should be on the prayer of the Mass, which we read in the missal.

 

[kristie_m]

Well, I was born post Vatican II so am ONLY used to the NO Mass. As far as the Mass parts go, I can figure out some of the latin, having sung the English equivalent enough times. And much of it is lovely, but I think I prefer it in English. If I don’t have to concentrate on translating in my head, I’m much more likely to be able to keep up during the Mass.

There are some songs that I’ve sung in Latin that I have absolutely no idea what I’m singing. I’m trusting that it’s not the theme song to “are you smarter than a 5th grader”.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I made my First Communion and was Confirmed when the Mass was in Latin. From first grade on, I knelt beside my mother at Mass. I can see her finger on her missal as she traced the Latin and corresponded to the English on the other page. Gee, no. We had no understanding what “Hoc est enim Corpus meum” meant.
By eighth grade (also before Vatican II) we had massive vocabularly exercises where we learned that a significant amount of tri-syllabic English words were rooted in (gasp) Latin…

I’d like to think of myself as an ordinary Catholic. From the start of the Fourth Grade on, I was an ordinary altar boy. I guess that summer between the Third and Fourth Grade when I trained to be an ordinary altar boy, I was imbued with the ability to see cognates between Latin and English or between Latin and Spanish/Italian.

I guess I was just a remarkable kid who could see the similarities betwen the Latin on one side of the missal and the English on the other.

 

[markadm]

Well, I was born post Vatican II so am ONLY used to the NO Mass. As far as the Mass parts go, I can figure out some of the latin, having sung the English equivalent enough times. And much of it is lovely, but I think I prefer it in English. If I don’t have to concentrate on translating in my head, I’m much more likely to be able to keep up during the Mass.

Hrmm… I appreciate your point, but I too was born post-Vatican II (1980), but am used more to the TLM. In fact, I don’t really like the NO. I can follow the TLM perfectly, but it would ordinarily require study; I think I’m helped by coming from an Anglican background where they said essentially the Johannine Missale Romanum in English.

But that’s not all. Although my forté is Germanic languages, I learned some French as a child, and I think possibly that if one is used at all to foreign languages then picking up another one might be easier. I can see how people with no foreign language experience would find Latin incomprehensible, if not quite intimidating.

Our mind should be on god and not on the missal if I understand the meaning of the mass correctly.

This statement is incorrect. The “active participation” required of the faithful during the Mass would extend to offering the same prayers in union with the Priest. Therefore, as laudamus_te has indicated, we are actually required to understand, if not focus, on the meaning of the Prayers of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[stmaria]

I have a discussion going on in the non-catholic section of the forum. I made a claim that most ordinary catholics would not understand the latin in a Tridentine mass nor would they be able to understand latin in general. Would I be correct in my judgement?

.

I do not understand Latin in general but I do know the Latin that is said at Mass. That’s all the Latin I need to know.
I don’t understand Aramaic but I absolutely understood the movie *Passion of the Christ *by simply reading the sub- titles. The Latin mass is no different than the movie. You can understand very easily if you really want to.

 

[stmaria]

Guys, why me is a Mormon with a strong testimony for the revelations of Joseph Smith, who is trying to convince us he is also Catholic who serves as a lector in his parish, and that he attends the TLM with nuns.

During the course of the discussion it came up that he didn’t think there were any scripture readings in the TLM.

The TLM is full of scripture readings. Besides the Gospel and the Epistle of the day, the Introit, the Tract and the Gradual are all scriptural as well as most of the prayers said by the priest. The Last Gospel of John is read at every Mass and Psalm 42 is said at the foot of the altar at every Mass.

 

[I_Believe]

I have a discussion going on in the non-catholic section of the forum. I made a claim that most ordinary catholics would not understand the latin in a Tridentine mass nor would they be able to understand latin in general. Would I be correct in my judgement?

I am interested in your opinions. It was suggested that I post such a question here. My antagonist on the non-catholic section disagreed with me and suggested I seek you people out for your opinion.

How many TLM’s have you attended ? You can’t go to two or three and expect to have it down pat.

The rubrics will help you find your place if you get lost. They are right there in the missal.

As far as understanding latin, no, the majority of Catholics don’t understand it. If they have been attending Mass in the venacular year after year, then of course they don’t understand it.

Everything one needs to understand it is in the missal. How many times must one hear Dominus vobiscum to understand it means The Lord be with you ? 2 ? 3 ?

The only reason someone can’t learn to pray the Mass along with the priest is lack of effort. If you take the attitude that it is a hassle, then it will be.

 

[whizkid43]

Guys, why me is a Mormon with a strong testimony for the revelations of Joseph Smith, who is trying to convince us he is also Catholic who serves as a lector in his parish, and that he attends the TLM with nuns. During the course of the discussion it came up that he didn’t think there were any scripture readings in the TLM. It has been pointed out to him numerous times that the missal is bilingual, but he clings to the argument that it is impossible for any average Catholic to have any idea what is going on because the language is Latin. My argument is that if you are Catholic, you should know what’s going on in the Mass even if you don’t know any Latin. The order of the mass doesn’t change, and there is always scripture.

Complicated, I know.

Wow, complicated but interesting. I casually mentioned in work that I was interested in learning Latin and one of my coworkers loaned me his Latin book from high school. It would be short order until I understood what was going on. As it was I knew what was going on in the mass on EWTN.

I was born in '64 so I don’t quite remember the TLM, but there was that scene about the baptism in the Godfather… (sorry folks).

Just to be clear. When I said I would look forward to it I meant understanding, participating etc. FULLY. Minimally I would learn enough Latin to completly understand the TLM. With that said the mass I saw last night seemed much more reverent than I’m used to. The NO is what I grew up with but life has brought me to a point to a point where I’m turning much more traditionalist. As I said I’ve recently returned to the Church so I want to take my place but not stand out be the obnoxious new guy.

I’d ask my parish priest if he plans to offer the TLM but there’s enough going on around here. In my area there are 3 parishes and looks like there will only be 2 priests to serve soon

 

[EasterJoy]

I have a discussion going on in the non-catholic section of the forum. I made a claim that most ordinary catholics would not understand the latin in a Tridentine mass nor would they be able to understand latin in general. Would I be correct in my judgement?

I am interested in your opinions. It was suggested that I post such a question here. My antagonist on the non-catholic section disagreed with me and suggested I seek you people out for your opinion.

I’m not sure what your point is.

Is it that most Catholics could stand to learn more Latin than what they know? Absolutely. Remember, though, that learning the Latin in the TLM, since it is repetitive from one Mass to another, and not conversational, is not like formally learning a foreign language from the ground up. You do not have to have the same mastery of case and agreement and so on to do it. Since so many of the phrases are familiar, all are in a context that can be understood and not just learned by rote, and since so much Latin has been incorporated into English, the task is well within the ability of an average person to learn, even an average American.

Consider the Italian opera as a parallel, unquestionably a treasure among the performing arts. Who on earth thinks that Carmen should be translated into English? I would call it hyperbole, but the word sacrilege would typically borrowed to translate the thought.

Italian and Latin, because of the nature of the vowels incorporated into them, are beautifully suited to being sung. The words can be translated, but this aesthetic effect cannot be. There is also the emotional impact of the long history of Latin in the Mass. Every Mass participates in the one Sacrifice on Calvary, but Latin does make it easier to hear the music ring across the centuries.

The average American, with a little effort, could not only understand but could be veritably transported by attending a performance of Carmen or Tosca or any of a number of other operatic great works, even if they do not have the aptitude to learn conversational Italian. How much more could the average Catholic, if open to it, be far more than transported by participation at a Mass conducted in Latin. Not all, but many who are not availing themselves of the chance could be.

And no, this is not a judgement on the NO, any more than it is a judgement on Romeo and Juliet. It is an opinion for people who are afraid that they cannot access the TLM because the Latin is “too hard”. It does them a disservice to discourage them from trying.

 

[drafdog]

No, the vast majority of Catholics in the pew would not understand the Latin of the Tridentine Mass. If the translation into the vernacular appears on the page with the Latin, it still does not mean that the reader understands the Latin. As only a few words at a time of Latin would be translated into another language, the subtlety and nuances of the language would be inevitably lost.

Matthew

 

[ProVobis]

. The discussion is about just how many ordinary catholics would understand the latin in the mass. I said very few.

What would you expect after listening to forty years of the Latin-Mass-was-abrogated stuff or not having heard of the Latin Mass at all? Hopefully this will change in time. And hopefully people will come to understand the Mass better, Latin or no Latin.

 

[brotherhrolf]

No, the vast majority of Catholics in the pew would not understand the Latin of the Tridentine Mass. If the translation into the vernacular appears on the page with the Latin, it still does not mean that the reader understands the Latin. As only a few words at a time of Latin would be translated into another language, the subtlety and nuances of the language would be inevitably lost.

Matthew

Oh, puhlease! I’m 56 and not dead yet. Do you have any idea of just how many Catholics still alive today grew up with the Mass in Latin? Gee, no, I am not going to be able to parse Latin in the same way that I can parse English. But I can chant the Pater Noster and recognize what I am chanting. Hello! I know y’all don’t want to hear it but hey, there are still a whole bunch of us alive who remember the Latin Mass not only in the pew but also as altar servers.

 

[the_phoenix]

As for my understanding of Latin and Romance languages descended from Latin:

1. I studied three years of high school Latin in public school.
2. I earned a Master’s Degree in Spanish, which I began teaching myself at age seven.
3. I studied two years of college French.
4. In my current job, I am expected to proofread technical manuals in Spanish, Italian, French, and German (not a Romance language) on a regular basis. When the occasional Portuguese project crosses my desk I’m very happy, having travelled to Fatima, Portugal on pilgrimage as a teenager. Since being on the job, it’s easier for me to translate the above languages when I see them in Holy Week broadcasts from the Vatican, or for example in the Bible verses featured in the Carthusian documentary-movie “Into Great Silence.”

That said, when I attend the Latin Mass, I tend not to use a missal but rather be absorbed by the language of Love which transcends earthly tongues, as I personally find the Latin Mass very conducive to contemplative prayer.

~~ the phoenix