Understanding Latin?

[drafdog]

I have had four more years of the Latin Mass than hrolf and I can pick out a few words here and there that I can understand due to their similarity to French or English words. This does not mean that I understand Latin, nor does it mean that any significant portion of the over 45 crowd in the pews understands Latin. And we are the ones who heard Mass in Latin in childhood. No, the fact of the matter is that there are indeed few people who currently know enough Latin to understand the liturgy when prayed in that tongue.
I am pleased that there are some of the faithful whose facility at languages makes them in some small measure able to pick up the prayers in Latin. More power to them. But that is still a very small fraction of the Catholic laity.

Matthew

 

[ProVobis]

That said, when I attend the Latin Mass, I tend not to use a missal but rather be absorbed by the language of Love which transcends earthly tongues, as I personally find the Latin Mass very conducive to contemplative prayer.

~~ the phoenix

Precisely. Prayer isn’t always about words, phrases, musical lyrics, or cadences.

 

[stmaria]

I have had four more years of the Latin Mass than hrolf and I can pick out a few words here and there that I can understand due to their similarity to French or English words. This does not mean that I understand Latin, nor does it mean that any significant portion of the over 45 crowd in the pews understands Latin. And we are the ones who heard Mass in Latin in childhood.

No, the fact of the matter is that there are indeed few people who currently know enough Latin to understand the liturgy when prayed in that tongue.

You don’t know what you are talking about. I never took Latin in school yet I know exactly what is being said at Mass. Get over it already . Habetis bona deum

 

[universalindult]

No, the fact of the matter is that there are indeed few people who currently know enough Latin to understand the liturgy when prayed in that tongue.

We’ve had almost 40 years of mass in the vernaular, and the average Catholic today has little to no understanding of WHAT is going on at mass. This is evidenced by their dress, behavior, demeaner, sexual morality, etc. There is very little reverence towards the Holy Eucharist, little to no understanding that the mass is truly a sacrifice, little to no understanding of the true nature and role of the priesthood, etc etc etc.

Maybe Catholics couldn’t literally understand Latin prior to the vernacular mass, but they had a much deeper and proper understanding of what the mass was, what was really going on, the Real Presence, etc.

Most Catholics who attend mass in the vernacular today have no idea of what is really going on at mass, despite the vernacular. So the argument that vernacular was necessary to truly understand and participate in the mass was and is, at best, a red herring.

I have yet to meet a regular attendee at the TLM who does not understand WHAT is going on. I have met few who regularly attend the vernacular – other than those raised in the TLM – that have anything resembling a deep and proper understanding of the mass.

 

[SanJudas]

We’ve had almost 40 years of mass in the vernaular, and the average Catholic today has little to no understanding of WHAT is going on at mass. This is evidenced by their dress, behavior, demeaner, sexual morality, etc. There is very little reverence towards the Holy Eucharist, little to no understanding that the mass is truly a sacrifice, little to no understanding of the true nature and role of the priesthood, etc etc etc.

God save all here.

Thank you universalindult. I believe your comments cut right to the heart of the matter. I would like to say, though, that in my humble opinion, the lack of understanding on the part of many Catholics about what is truly happening at the OF mass is due more to changes in our culture and society in the past forty years than it is to any fault in the OF mass itself. The Real Presence and the sacrificial nature of the mass are clear in the OF if you read the texts…Our problem today is that so many people are either inclined to be strict materialists, admitting no supernatural intervention in our daily lives, or have become sceptical of our Church as a result of the constant attacks against it by pop culture. If you have been brainwashed since childhood into thinking that everyone is a liar, everyone is a hypocrite, and everything is a “bunch of ****,” it’s going to be hard for you to accept that the priest is performing, and the congregation is witnessing, a miracle at every mass, even if it’s as beautiful and solemn as an EF.

 

[Harmony1988]

People who speak english as a first language would fare better than the ones in asia at understanding the mass as english is anyways derived from latin.

People who speak french would understand better than the native english speakers, same goes for italians. I have studied french for a while, and I can understand a fair bit when reading latin, as it’s really not that difficult and some words are very similar to english.

Like…‘humani’ or ‘evangelium’ or ‘patronus’

etc.

However when hearing it, it’s not as easy as reading it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

If “whyme” is actually a troll, this is addressed to the others. If you look at the “Our Father” in Latin, for example, and if your “English” vocabulary is at all wide, you realize that about every third word or so is the root of an English word. (e.g. “Pater”…“paternity”, “es”…“is”, “in”…“in”, “coelis”…“celestial” "sanctificetur…“sanctify”, “nomen”…“nominate”…“name”)

Of course, most of the prayers are repetitive, and you pick them up faster than you would think. I can’t speak Spanish either, but I have picked up some of the prayers and hymns simply by going to Hispanic Masses now and then. And, of course, having at least a bowing acquaintence with Latin helps with that too.

When I was in college, I first studied French by memorizing conversations. (Bonjour Jean. Bonjour Marie. Comment allez-vous? Tres bien, merci, et vous? and so on) After awhile, I could read other things and put sentences together myself. I think that’s how lots of people approach language.

They say you haven’t really learned a language until you can think IN it without thinking ABOUT it. I think that happens well before an entire language is learned. For some of the familiar Latin prayers, I do not “translate” them in my head anymore. I don’t have to. They just “are” and are, to me, no less familiar or known than the same prayer in English. That happens faster than most folks expect.

To me, the Mass in Latin (or Spanish, or French) is a piece of cake. But you have to try. I thoroughly enjoy it.

 

[why_me]

i have attended a few of the tridentine masses and i did take two years of latin in high school so i do have an advantage with the language but the thing is that the priest is the one saying the prayers for us with very few responses needed from the congregation. the tridentine mass is all about praying to God and not like the current mass which always makes me feel like we are praying to the priest.

Thank you. I said the same thing to my judgemental catholic friends on the non-catholic religion section of the forum and they began to judge and condemn me. Such is life on that section of the forum.

 

[why_me]

Guys, why me is a Mormon with a strong testimony for the revelations of Joseph Smith, who is trying to convince us he is also Catholic who serves as a lector in his parish, and that he attends the TLM with nuns. During the course of the discussion it came up that he didn’t think there were any scripture readings in the TLM. It has been pointed out to him numerous times that the missal is bilingual, but he clings to the argument that it is impossible for any average Catholic to have any idea what is going on because the language is Latin. My argument is that if you are Catholic, you should know what’s going on in the Mass even if you don’t know any Latin. The order of the mass doesn’t change, and there is always scripture.

Complicated, I know.

Dear ibkc,

It seems that you are rather judgemental of me. But I also understand that this is your problem and your problem alone. I asked the question on this forum because you more or less suggested that I do. Please keep your judgements of me to that section of the forum where it is perfectly normal for catholics to act uncatholic.

In the tridentine mass, the priest if he has no microphone can be difficult to hear. This is why it is hard to follow along. I also have pointed out that for many it is a first time experience and it does take some time to get used to. If one can not hear the priest clearly, how is one to recognize the latin words and follow along.

I also pointed out that one should not be reading the missal anyway during the mass since the mass is about prayer. But…just condemnation from my catholic friends.

 

[why_me]

We’ve had almost 40 years of mass in the vernaular, and the average Catholic today has little to no understanding of WHAT is going on at mass. This is evidenced by their dress, behavior, demeaner, sexual morality, etc. There is very little reverence towards the Holy Eucharist, little to no understanding that the mass is truly a sacrifice, little to no understanding of the true nature and role of the priesthood, etc etc etc.

Maybe Catholics couldn’t literally understand Latin prior to the vernacular mass, but they had a much deeper and proper understanding of what the mass was, what was really going on, the Real Presence, etc.

Most Catholics who attend mass in the vernacular today have no idea of what is really going on at mass, despite the vernacular. So the argument that vernacular was necessary to truly understand and participate in the mass was and is, at best, a red herring.
.

Thank you. I agree with you but it is rather unfortunate that many catholics don’t understand the mass. My point to this thread was to gather opinions about understanding the latin. But from my experience of the tridentine mass, and I have had two recent experiences was that people who had no experience with it, had difficulties following along regardless of the translation. The priest was difficult to hear. But at the singing tridentine mass, the latin was more clear but still very few, if any understood the latin.

Since I have only attended two tridentine masses as an adult and they have both been recent I had difficulties understanding what was being read or the prayers not to mention when to knell or sit. I just followed along by sitting in the back.

 

[why_me]

I have had four more years of the Latin Mass than hrolf and I can pick out a few words here and there that I can understand due to their similarity to French or English words. This does not mean that I understand Latin, nor does it mean that any significant portion of the over 45 crowd in the pews understands Latin. And we are the ones who heard Mass in Latin in childhood. No, the fact of the matter is that there are indeed few people who currently know enough Latin to understand the liturgy when prayed in that tongue.
I am pleased that there are some of the faithful whose facility at languages makes them in some small measure able to pick up the prayers in Latin. More power to them. But that is still a very small fraction of the Catholic laity.

Matthew

My feelings exactly and this is what I experienced when I attended the tridentine mass. But it is perfectly natural but with time, more people will come to appreciate the meaning of the mass.

 

[why_me]

How many TLM’s have you attended ? You can’t go to two or three and expect to have it down pat.

As I just stated I have attended two recently as an adult. Now that I youtubed the tridentine mass (which I have now watched with explanations) I know more. But when I announced that there were no lector readings at the tridentine or reading in general, I was pounded. But how is a novice to know if it all was in latin?

 

[Harmony1988]

If “whyme” is actually a troll, this is addressed to the others. If you look at the “Our Father” in Latin, for example, and if your “English” vocabulary is at all wide, you realize that about every third word or so is the root of an English word. (e.g. “Pater”…“paternity”, “es”…“is”, “in”…“in”, “coelis”…“celestial” "sanctificetur…“sanctify”, “nomen”…“nominate”…“name”)

No, the english words are the roots of the latin words, english is derived from latin, not the other way around.

 

[why_me]

If “whyme” is actually a troll, this is addressed to the others. If you look at the “Our Father” in Latin, for example, and if your “English” vocabulary is at all wide, you realize that about every third word or so is the root of an English word. (e.g. “Pater”…“paternity”, “es”…“is”, “in”…“in”, “coelis”…“celestial” "sanctificetur…“sanctify”, “nomen”…“nominate”…“name”)

Why would a troll ask such a question when it was suggested to me that I ask the question on this section of the forum by the same individual who claims that I am a troll?

But I do want to thank the members of the traditional forum for not judgeing me as my friends do on the non-catholic religion section. I think that I should hang out here and learn more. I am getting tired of defending mormons on the non-catholic section of the forum and being judged as ‘not catholic’ or a fraud.

 

[Harmony1988]

I wish debates and such happened without calling others heretics, frauds, dogs, witches, wizards, worms and etc.

Makes the world a pleasanter place.

 

[ibkc]

As I just stated I have attended two recently as an adult. Now that I youtubed the tridentine mass (which I have now watched with explanations) I know more. But when I announced that there were no lector readings at the tridentine or reading in general, I was pounded. But how is a novice to know if it all was in latin?

You were using your alleged attendence at the TLM as proof of your awesome Catholicness. Turns out you don’t even know the order of the mass in any language and that scripture is always read at mass.

As I said, folks, why me is a Mormon who stays in the non-Catholic religions section most of the time proselytizing, defending other Mormons like those kids who desecrated the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs in Colorado, and going back to his mormon apologetics forum (where he has a big avatar of Jospeh Smith) to beg his fellow Mormons to boardswarm CAF. He (or she) is very much a troll. Can’t figure out why the mods put up with him, frankly.

 

[twopekinguys]

Why would a troll ask such a question when it was suggested to me that I ask the question on this section of the forum by the same individual who claims that I am a troll?

But I do want to thank the members of the traditional forum for not judgeing me as my friends do on the non-catholic religion section. I think that I should hang out here and learn more. I am getting tired of defending mormons on the non-catholic section of the forum and being judged as ‘not catholic’ or a fraud.

Again with the twisting. The question posed to you on the other thread, was to take a poll in a parish, not an internet chat board. Just like on the other board you made the statement that there weren’t any “readings” in the TLM.

You’re slipping in your deception.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I do not know what the “average” Catholic understands. I can only speak for myself.

I have never studied Latin. I did take a couple years’ of French. I find that I am able to pick out 95% of the words when there is a “gloss” (English translation next to the Latin) and 70% when there is not. That is, I can read through the Credo or something and figure out what is being said. I don’t think it would work as well if I were reading something that was not Catholic prayer. If it were instructions on how to cook a turkey or something, I don’t think I’d get any of it, at all. I guess I mean that my potential vocabulary is limited to the prayers of the Mass.

My knowlege is limited only to roots of words. I am completely clueless about the grammar, and why a word may end in “us” or “um” or “ae.” So, I can only pick out the roots and then, using logic, figure out what the word means in that sentence.

That’s what I understand in writing. If it is spoken, then I only understand key words and phrases, like “Oremus” “Sanctos” “Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecata mundi…” and other very common things. They help me to find my place in the missal, but I can’t actually follow them when they’re spoken.

 

[the_phoenix]

I also pointed out that one should not be reading the missal anyway during the mass since the mass is about prayer. But…just condemnation from my catholic friends.

Methinks you missed my post … Please see post #20 in this thread, wherein I say:

“That said, when I attend the Latin Mass, I tend not to use a missal but rather be absorbed by the language of Love which transcends earthly tongues, as I personally find the Latin Mass very conducive to contemplative prayer.”

No condemnation here … In fact, I agreed with you.

PAX ET BONUM,

(Peace and goodness,)

~~ the phoenix

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I

Consider the Italian opera as a parallel, unquestionably a treasure among the performing arts. Who on earth thinks that Carmen should be translated into English? I would call it hyperbole, but the word sacrilege would typically borrowed to translate the thought.

Carmen isn’t an Italian opera… it’s French.