Understanding Mary

[icamay]

To understand why I need to understand Mary, I guess you should first know that I’ve spent 3 decades as a Protestant, and I’m still constantly being faced with questions from my family about why I would want to join a faith that “worships” Mary. They also question the perpetual virginity that Catholics believe Mary maintained.

Tonight, as I was meditating upon the Mysteries, something hit me. The marital act is sacred - it is a uniting bond between man and wife and is the only means by which we create human life. The Church holds this act in the highest regard.

God had a child with Mary - all Christians inherently agree upon this. Why would we believe that he wrecklessly had a child with an ordinary woman when he teaches us that this is not how we should behave in our lives? God doesn’t work this way. He specifically chose Mary as his son’s mother, as his bride. We are told that Joseph was a faithful man of God. How can we really believe that he would disrespect this holy union of God and Mary by knowing her as his wife?

Essentially, the bond between God and Mary is sacred, just as the bond between Mary and her son, Jesus. Why wouldn’t we venerate this as holy?

These are just my thoughts (as of my meditations 30 minutes ago). As an incoming convert, I welcome any thoughts and/or clarifications.

 

[Lainey63]

I have read that God kept Mary hidden so that even the angels did not know who she was. I’ve never had a problem with anything about Mary and to me it makes perfect sense that she remained a virgin. With God nothing is impossible. It is my thinking that when one becomes so united with God there is no need for anything else–nothing else will satisfy the soul.

We learned in the story the Wedding of Cana that we can go to Mary to intercede to Jesus for us and Mary always turns us towards Jesus and tells us to Do whatever He tells you. We believe that because Jesus came through Mary to us, we in turn go through Mary to Him. While Jesus did say no one goes to the Father except through me…we stand at the foot of the cross with Mary. I’ve heard or read it is there when Jesus said “Woman behold thy son, son behold thy mother” He was talking to all of us.

Padre Pio once said that when we are to ashamed and afraid to go to Jesus, then go to Mary and she will bring you to Jesus.

Mary is not like any other woman created, and she had a hard time understanding what the angel said to her but she surrendered to God’s will. And God is so good she was told about her cousin Elizabeth who was thought to be barren and beyond years…for nothing is impossible with God.

But I agree with you about Joseph I think the last thing on anybody’s mind was marital relations-we in modern times have lost that sense of Awe, Sacredness, Holiness and the pure Majesty of God.

 

[thequeen]

To understand why I need to understand Mary, I guess you should first know that I’ve spent 3 decades as a Protestant, and I’m still constantly being faced with questions from my family about why I would want to join a faith that “worships” Mary. They also question the perpetual virginity that Catholics believe Mary maintained.

Tonight, as I was meditating upon the Mysteries, something hit me. The marital act is sacred - it is a uniting bond between man and wife and is the only means by which we create human life. The Church holds this act in the highest regard.

God had a child with Mary - all Christians inherently agree upon this. Why would we believe that he wrecklessly had a child with an ordinary woman when he teaches us that this is not how we should behave in our lives? God doesn’t work this way. He specifically chose Mary as his son’s mother, as his bride. We are told that Joseph was a faithful man of God. How can we really believe that he would disrespect this holy union of God and Mary by knowing her as his wife?

Essentially, the bond between God and Mary is sacred, just as the bond between Mary and her son, Jesus. Why wouldn’t we venerate this as holy?

These are just my thoughts (as of my meditations 30 minutes ago). As an incoming convert, I welcome any thoughts and/or clarifications.

 

[thequeen]

To understand why I need to understand Mary, I guess you should first know that I’ve spent 3 decades as a Protestant, and I’m still constantly being faced with questions from my family about why I would want to join a faith that “worships” Mary. They also question the perpetual virginity that Catholics believe Mary maintained.

Tonight, as I was meditating upon the Mysteries, something hit me. The marital act is sacred - it is a uniting bond between man and wife and is the only means by which we create human life. The Church holds this act in the highest regard.

God had a child with Mary - all Christians inherently agree upon this. Why would we believe that he wrecklessly had a child with an ordinary woman when he teaches us that this is not how we should behave in our lives? God doesn’t work this way. He specifically chose Mary as his son’s mother, as his bride. We are told that Joseph was a faithful man of God. How can we really believe that he would disrespect this holy union of God and Mary by knowing her as his wife?

Essentially, the bond between God and Mary is sacred, just as the bond between Mary and her son, Jesus. Why wouldn’t we venerate this as holy?

These are just my thoughts (as of my meditations 30 minutes ago). As an incoming convert, I welcome any thoughts and/or clarifications.

What a beautiful thought on Mary I had never thought about it like that thanks for the lovely meditation.

 

[NeedImprovement]

. … We are told that Joseph was a faithful man of God. How can we really believe that he would disrespect this holy union of God and Mary by knowing her as his wife? …

…But I agree with you about Joseph I think the last thing on anybody’s mind was marital relations-we in modern times have lost that sense of Awe, Sacredness, Holiness and the pure Majesty of God.

I’ve heard more than one homily which agrees with these same sentiments. Here is the most pertinent passage ( KJV for icamay) Matt 1:18-20 .

Matthew 1 :18-20

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

The word which seems to convince the priests who gave those homilies, is the word “fear”.
They reasoned that if Joseph’s thoughts had been those pertaining to the intervention of some other man , they would have given rise to feelings of “resentment”, as opposed to fear. But the angel said “Do not fear.”

 

[jbarbaretta]

Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily."

One of the points I think needs to be emphasized is that Joseph was " a just [man]". The “just” penalty for adultery under Jewish law was stoning. Joseph may not have understood what had happened, but he obviously didn’t consider Mary to have been (willingly) involved with another man. He was however probably very confused and anxious and afraid.

Given the society, he had no good choices. Anything he did would have led to one or both being ostracized or worse. Charging her with adultery would have led to her stoning, but if he takes her as his wife, people would have assumed the baby was his, but from before they were married, and that was also possibly a stoning offense. Divorcing her quietly, would have at least kept her alive but left her in a position where she would have been looked down upon.

 

[jbarbaretta]

To understand why I need to understand Mary, I guess you should first know that I’ve spent 3 decades as a Protestant, and I’m still constantly being faced with questions from my family about why I would want to join a faith that “worships” Mary. They also question the perpetual virginity that Catholics believe Mary maintained.

Tonight, as I was meditating upon the Mysteries, something hit me. The marital act is sacred - it is a uniting bond between man and wife and is the only means by which we create human life. The Church holds this act in the highest regard.

God had a child with Mary - all Christians inherently agree upon this. Why would we believe that he wrecklessly had a child with an ordinary woman when he teaches us that this is not how we should behave in our lives? God doesn’t work this way. He specifically chose Mary as his son’s mother, as his bride. We are told that Joseph was a faithful man of God. How can we really believe that he would disrespect this holy union of God and Mary by knowing her as his wife?

Essentially, the bond between God and Mary is sacred, just as the bond between Mary and her son, Jesus. Why wouldn’t we venerate this as holy?

These are just my thoughts (as of my meditations 30 minutes ago). As an incoming convert, I welcome any thoughts and/or clarifications.

There are a few good books out there that deal with many of the issues you have. Converts, like Scott Hahn and Tim Staples, have had the same type of issues and questions and family misunderstandings. I believe they both have written books dealing with these issues. I do know that the answers obvious to Catholics aren’t always so obvious to protestants. Sometimes we know what we believe, but it is harder to explain what we believe.

Catholic Lighthouse Media has a CD or MP3 download called The Virgin Mary Revealed Through Scripture. It might help you with some of your families questions.

 

[felsguy]

To understand why I need to understand Mary, I guess you should first know that I’ve spent 3 decades as a Protestant, and I’m still constantly being faced with questions from my family about why I would want to join a faith that “worships” Mary. They also question the perpetual virginity that Catholics believe Mary maintained.

Tonight, as I was meditating upon the Mysteries, something hit me. The marital act is sacred - it is a uniting bond between man and wife and is the only means by which we create human life. The Church holds this act in the highest regard.

God had a child with Mary - all Christians inherently agree upon this. Why would we believe that he wrecklessly had a child with an ordinary woman when he teaches us that this is not how we should behave in our lives? God doesn’t work this way. He specifically chose Mary as his son’s mother, as his bride. We are told that Joseph was a faithful man of God. How can we really believe that he would disrespect this holy union of God and Mary by knowing her as his wife?

Essentially, the bond between God and Mary is sacred, just as the bond between Mary and her son, Jesus. Why wouldn’t we venerate this as holy?

These are just my thoughts (as of my meditations 30 minutes ago). As an incoming convert, I welcome any thoughts and/or clarifications.

Icamay, it sounds like you have already begun the RCISA process, just not formally yet. Just teasing. You show wonderful insight here.

I note your use of the word venerate. Expanding on this with your family members may be helpful in reassuring them that the faith you seek to join does not worship Mary. In any case, may God be with you in a special way this coming year as you continue your journey.

 

[NeedImprovement]

…but if he takes her as his wife, people would have assumed the baby was his, but from before they were married, and that was also possibly a stoning offense.

On this point, it may be more preferable to say before they were living together or cohabiting rather than before they were “married”. We don’t really have a precise modern word which corresponds to the word “betrothal” . The KJV is quite fair in that it uses the word “espoused”. Some of our (yes - even our own Catholic versions) bibles equate betrothal to engagement, when betrothal is much more than that.

The Jewish Encyclopedia provides more information on what betrothal actually entailed :

“In strict accordance with this sense the rabbinical law declares that the betrothal is equivalent to an actual marriage and only to be dissolved by” as jbarbaretta notes, formally -

Divorcing her

with a written note of dismissal.

They say the usual period which passed following a betrothal was 12 months before the bride and groom actually lived together - the formal “home taking” ; except in the case of a widow or widower, which allowed for an interval of 30 days.

While the Gospel account makes no mention of suspicion of adultery, how is it that we almost automatically suspect that suspicion ourselves ?


As upsetting as these events possibly might have been for St. Joseph , any time we bring the word “adultery” into this scenario, it can suggest to us or lead us in the direction of presuming he suspected our Blessed Mother Mary of infidelity. Subsequently, assumptions can be made - not necessarily accurate assumptions - one’s which perhaps present us with an image of Mary - beginning to physically “show” that she was “with child”, while Joseph ponders to himself “I wonder how she got that way?”

We seldom take the next logical step. Not frequently enough do we ever consider the very real possibility that Mary, in her flawless purity and unpretentiousness, may have simply gone directly to her husband Joseph and told him what happened … repeating precisely what the angel Gabriel said to her.

Far fetched… ? Not half as far fetched as the alternative : Mary would have had to have said to herself, “Well I won’t say anything to Joseph right now - he’s just my husband. Instead I’m going to go to Elizabeth’s and stay there a few months. Joseph can find out some other way”.( It is notable that the actual distance Mary traveled to visit her cousin Elizabeth was between 80 to 100 miles, and this into the hill country, and also a potentially perilous journey. This reflection says, “It is a long way—nearly a hundred miles—from Nazareth to Ain Karim, the little town in the hills of Judea where, according to tradition, Zachary and Elizabeth lived.”)

So if Mary had told Joseph she would also have told him what the angel Gabriel said to her about her cousin Elizabeth who was carrying John the Baptist in her womb:" And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."

Let’s ponder this a moment. If Mary hadn’t told Joseph , then how did he find out ?

A just man of God would also have been waiting for the promised Messiah. Let’s revisit that word “fear” again. Consider for a moment, if you will, another instance where “fear” is mentioned in the first chapter of the Holy Gospel according to Luke - when the neighbors are considering the events concerning John the Baptist’s human beginnings : Luke 1:65-66

And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.

And all they that heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him.

If Joseph had been told by Mary in advance the news of her “barren” cousin Elizabeth (who was advanced in years) also being with child, by her recounting exactly what the angel Gabriel had said to her, there is ample reason to surmise that St. Joseph considered perhaps something or Someone much greater than himself was at work here : With all the events surrounding and interconnecting Elizabeth and the Blessed Virgin Mary, might Joseph, in concert with the people of his time and location have also thought that "the hand of the Lord was with them" ?

 

[thirddec]

There is one line of tradition I heard of recently on some site or other that Mary was already a maiden who had offered herself up to temple service for life sort of like Nuns now but by the law she needed to get married so a marraige partner was found in Joseph who was an older man a Widower with a family already.

No idea how researched or proveable it was ; its not in the bible but wasn’t Josephs mind put at ease by an angel in a dream ?

I know its not much but it might prompt a better reply with more scholarship than mine.

 

[jbarbaretta]

On this point, it may be more preferable to say before they were living together or cohabiting rather than before they were “married”. We don’t really have a precise modern word which corresponds to the word “betrothal” . The KJV is quite fair in that it uses the word “espoused”. Some of our (yes - even our own Catholic versions) bibles equate betrothal to engagement, when betrothal is much more than that.

Sorry, I understand that. It was sloppy on my part to phrase it so.

As upsetting as these events possibly might have been for St. Joseph , any time we bring the word “adultery” into this scenario, it can suggest to us or lead us in the direction of presuming he suspected our Blessed Mother Mary of infidelity.

Sorry again for not being clear. My point was precisely that there was no possibility that St Joseph assumed that the child was the result of any sort of infidelity.

He may not have seen clearly how to respond to the situation without some timely guidance from an angel, but he believed Mary was not in any way unfaithful.

In discussing the perpetual virginity of Mary, 2 issues need to be clarified.

1. Was there any marital relations leading up to Jesus’ birth. The bible is pretty clear on this, but you run into questions from non-Catholics on occasion that call for a thorough analysis. and
2. Was there any marital relations after Jesus’ birth. The bible is much less explicit about this. There is one very obvious point that came from a Lutheran author (can’t remember the name - wish I did). He pointed out that based on the fact that at the foot of the cross, Jesus gave Mary into the care of John. IF Jesus had any brothers or sisters, Mary would have been cared for by them. It would have been inconceivable in a 1st century Jewish community that a mother would have been given to the care of another, if there were brothers or sisters alive to care for her.

The Gospel does mention that Jesus has brothers and sisters. One must remember that in Aramaic, there really is no commonly used word for cousin. All close family members are commonly referred to as brothers and sisters, Again, remember at the foot of the cross stood Mary and Mary’s sister Mary. Unless their father was George Foreman, it is unlikely that they were biological sisters. They were more likely cousins. Also note that this other Mary is listed as the mother of 2 named as Jesus’ “brothers”, which would also make them close family members.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Sorry, I understand that. It was sloppy on my part to phrase it so.
(…)

Sorry again for not being clear. My point was precisely that there was no possibility that St Joseph assumed that the child was the result of any sort of infidelity…

It was only that first point jbarbaretta - I was including myself in these next two (I really meant “we” instead of only figuratively) statements here:

…While the Gospel account makes no mention of suspicion of adultery, how is it that we almost automatically suspect that suspicion ourselves ?


As upsetting as these events possibly might have been for St. Joseph , any time we bring the word “adultery” into this scenario, it can suggest to us…

I simply hoped to make sure that we don’t rule out the possibility of St. Joseph accepting from the beginning that it was God intervening - rather than his entertaining solely human explanations. It’s a very holy thought - of our Blessed Mother announcing to Joseph what the angel Gabriel had just announced to her…

 

[jbarbaretta]

I simply hoped to make sure that we don’t rule out the possibility of St. Joseph accepting from the beginning that it was God intervening - rather than his entertaining solely human explanations. It’s a very holy thought - of our Blessed Mother announcing to Joseph what the angel Gabriel had just announced to her…

Oddly, my whole life it never occurred to me that it could be any other way. It has been fairly recently that I have heard other “ideas” floated around as possible explanations for the events in the Gospel. Thank you for pointing that view of events out and making it clear. It is certainly worthy of meditation.

 

[NeedImprovement]

• ( Single quotes within paraphrases are all taken from the DRV of the Holy Bible . This reflection represents only my limited personal opinion of one possible interpretation. )

In this particular instance, I examine the feasibility from a man’s perspective . If I were betrothed to the purest woman of all, and she came to me and said :

“ An angel from God came to me today (or yesterday). He told me his name is Gabriel. His greeting was : ‘Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women’, and I didn’t understand what he meant at first.

But then he said ,’ Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end.’

When I asked him, ‘ How shall this be done, because I know not man?’ , he told me the Holy Ghost shall come upon me, and the power of the most High shall overshadow me. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of me shall be called the … ‘Son of God !’

Then he told me that my cousin Elizabeth has conceived a son in her old age – he said, ‘this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: Because no word shall be impossible with God.’ ”

Joseph … you also need to know that I told him I am the handmaid of the Lord … and I consented that it should be done to me according to his word…”

(We might recall here that Matt 1:18-19 says “…When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost. Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately.” ) So while considering this scenario, we might also consider that as Mary (plausibly) said these things to Joseph, she would have already been carrying Jesus in her womb. Can we even imagine what Joseph would have seen in her eyes , let alone contemplating what she spoke to him, while carrying the Son of the eternal God – the Savior of the world in her womb ?

As a man,in Joseph’s shoes, I would have no choice but to admit, “ God has big plans for her …” A next logical question - “Where will that leave me – She bears His Son ? ” It follows well within the realm of possibility that a just, “faithful” man of God, despite considerable joy/wonder/sorrow, would still reason next : “ Could this be the promised One ? … I’d better not interfere . Let me see how I can amend things accordingly.” (We might further note that only a man of humility could reason thus).

That would easily provide motivation for Joseph, and explain why he was “not willing publicly to expose her” (in order to protect her from the penalties explained in post # 5), but still “minded to put her away privately”.

Doesn’t the Gospel of Matthew seem to actually lean in that direction ? The words do not say “…before they came together, she was found with child. Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately.”

They say:
"…before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost. Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately.”

 

[ronh4]

To understand why I need to understand Mary, I guess you should first know that I’ve spent 3 decades as a Protestant, and I’m still constantly being faced with questions from my family about why I would want to join a faith that “worships” Mary. They also question the perpetual virginity that Catholics believe Mary maintained.

Tonight, as I was meditating upon the Mysteries, something hit me. The marital act is sacred - it is a uniting bond between man and wife and is the only means by which we create human life. The Church holds this act in the highest regard.

God had a child with Mary - all Christians inherently agree upon this. Why would we believe that he wrecklessly had a child with an ordinary woman when he teaches us that this is not how we should behave in our lives? God doesn’t work this way. He specifically chose Mary as his son’s mother, as his bride. We are told that Joseph was a faithful man of God. How can we really believe that he would disrespect this holy union of God and Mary by knowing her as his wife?

Essentially, the bond between God and Mary is sacred, just as the bond between Mary and her son, Jesus. Why wouldn’t we venerate this as holy?

These are just my thoughts (as of my meditations 30 minutes ago). As an incoming convert, I welcome any thoughts and/or clarifications.

That is a wonderful way of looking at Mary. You are very correct in my mind.

 

[Edward_H]

To understand why I need to understand Mary, I guess you should first know that I’ve spent 3 decades as a Protestant, and I’m still constantly being faced with questions from my family about why I would want to join a faith that “worships” Mary. They also question the perpetual virginity that Catholics believe Mary maintained.

Tonight, as I was meditating upon the Mysteries, something hit me. The marital act is sacred - it is a uniting bond between man and wife and is the only means by which we create human life. The Church holds this act in the highest regard.

God had a child with Mary - all Christians inherently agree upon this. Why would we believe that he wrecklessly had a child with an ordinary woman when he teaches us that this is not how we should behave in our lives? God doesn’t work this way. He specifically chose Mary as his son’s mother, as his bride. We are told that Joseph was a faithful man of God. How can we really believe that he would disrespect this holy union of God and Mary by knowing her as his wife?

Essentially, the bond between God and Mary is sacred, just as the bond between Mary and her son, Jesus. Why wouldn’t we venerate this as holy?

These are just my thoughts (as of my meditations 30 minutes ago). As an incoming convert, I welcome any thoughts and/or clarifications.

Well said and done. Keep up the prayer. Why indeed wouldn’t we do this! So true.

You’ve gained a deep insight that some never get to.

God Bless you on your journey.

 

[Irish_Kathleen]

Our Blessed Mother was never an ordinary woman. She lived her life taking care of her darling son seeing that He was always in her sight. Yet she knew he would be betrayed and suffer the humiliation of a terrible death. Can we only understand her emotional stress and misery at the hand of the Romans. Put yourself in her place. How did she do this? She is truly Queen of Heaven. We can only trust in her for our own children. We must ask for her guidance in our own children as she alone can ease are pain and suffering as we go through are own anguish with pain and suffering with the problem of our children and the sorrows that beface them. Give us strength Blessed Mother!