Understanding Mortification

[dean24us]

Hello! I am having trouble understanding mortification, specifically the type of mortification where one causes bodily harm to one’s self via flagellation, cilice, chains, etc. I realize that mortification in this manner has a long history both inside and outside of the Church, but I have a difficult time accepting that devotion in this manner is what God intended for us. In short, for reasons which should be obvious, it just seems wrong to me.

Can anyone help me understand why this type of mortification is acceptable (and, in some circle, encouraged) in the Church, and why some even consider it a “good thing” when it seems so wrong?

God bless,
Dean

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Hello! I am having trouble understanding mortification, … where one causes bodily harm. In short, for reasons which should be obvious, it just seems wrong to me.
Dean

I think you have answered this for yourself when you say “reasons which should be obvious.”

If you live in an OECD country you probably experience a level of health, prosperity, public non-violence and peace completely unheard of compared to most other nations now - let alone all previous history. In this context I think the mortifications you speak of would not have held the same horror that you regard them with today. In short, the reasons against them would not be at all obvious.

Life is still short, brutish and cruel for many millions of people today. Your average middle class American or Australian lives better than many of the kings of old.The evil of slavery is also obvious to us - but not in the early church. One was encouraged to be more holy by being a good slave. The same for wives being obedient to their husbands.

We can only become more holy within the context in which we operate and understand. The political/cultural evolution of ethical consciousness, which you seem to be also raising, is probably something that seems to overtly develop more slowly between successive generations rather than in the lifetime of a single cultural generation.

We eventually got there re slavery but I suspect it wouldn’t take much for that ethical sensitivity to be lost. Look at the acceptance of civil violence lying so close to the surface in the ruling middle classes and army of “democratic” Syria when things got tough.

But of course, at an absolute level you are right - martyrs are such not by their great wounds (and some were actively sought) but by their great love.

It is interesting that the sort of mortifications you speak of would be more likely found, and accepted, in cultures (eg Spanish Catholicism) or semi-closed solidalities that could be said to be psychologically more sheltered from “modern” life-styles and attitudes, and attuned to their past than we are.

(BTW those ancient practices, if done hygenically, don’t actually cause permanent physical damage. I am not so sure about the state of mind of someone “modern” who would want to do same. I cannot imagine there are large numbers of the faithful who are doing this - unless you know differently!)

 

[RedDuke50]

St. Margaret Mary did like what you said with chains. She did very extreme mortifications. And after reading The Devotion to the Sacred Heart by Fr. Croiset, I could kind of see why.

Mortifications are apparently supposed to help us rid ourselves of self love, secret pride, tepidity, and some unmortified passion. These four things hinder some of the fruits of the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Or keep you from growing in holiness. It also said that we can’t flatter ourselves that we love Jesus Christ if we do not do mortifications. So I guess that they are meant to help us conqour our passions and our senses so we will not be attached to the pleasures of the world.

The second poster seems to have done a good job in their post. I suppose that as long you aren’t causing extreme harm or scars then it is okay. Just trying to help a little bit.

 

[R_C]

“Our thoughts are not His thoughts” It also seems wrong to me that our dearly beloved Jesus, the innocent lamb born of the holy virgin of Israel, had to suffer those mortifications he endured in the Passion and die for us because of our sins.

The Church - whose Magisterium grows in wisdom and strength with time - affirms that

The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle. Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes

However, nowadays She also teaches us that

Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.

The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving

While the saints whose lives we read about had achieved such a level of spiritual perfection that the Holy Spirit directed them to great heights of ascesis, it would be indeed sterile and false for someone to even consider such mortifications when we don’t even have the most basic level of interior conversion.

Remember that all mortifications were always subject to the opinion of the soul’s confessor or spiritual director. If the confessor or spiritual director does not consider it appropriate, then by virtue (or vow, for the religious) of obedience they would not be carried out. When the Spirit prompts us to such intense acts of love, we should always abstain from them and talk to our confessor, being fully subject to his instructions on this matter.

 

[MarcoPolo]

As the other poster suggested, mortification should only be done under suervision of a spiritual director. the person must also be very mature in the faith. I dont think it wise for most Catholics to do that as penance. Fasting might be a better option, or small offerings like St Therese of Liseux wrote about. If it sounds too crazy, it may not be right for you right now.

 

[dean24us]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful responses! I’m a convert of around two years and am still learning about some aspects of the Church, but I have to admit that I did not expect to find anything like mortifications via physical self abuse (for sake of discussion, I’m going to refer to this as “physical mortifications”). Based upon the posts, it appears that I’m not the only one confused (in not disturbed) by it.

Just one post I wanted to address specifically…

(BTW those ancient practices, if done hygenically, don’t actually cause permanent physical damage. I am not so sure about the state of mind of someone “modern” who would want to do same. I cannot imagine there are large numbers of the faithful who are doing this - unless you know differently!)

Since my OP, I’ve done a lot of reading on the subject. Physical mortifications are definitely still practiced, but it is difficult to gauge how wide spread it is. There are some Catholic organizations that openly support physical mortification of its members (e.g., Opus Dei, etc), and I have found a few posts from people on CAF that practice physical mortification. Even the Blessed Pope John Paul II is alleged to practiced physical mortification.

I’m still not clear on what “benefits” (if that’s the right word) one gets from practicing physical mortification, but I have found what it isn’t:

• It isn’t a way to punish one’s self for sins.
• It isn’t a way to “show off” one’s devotion to God.

Again, I’m still not sure what it “is”, so please let me know if you have an explanation.

P.S. If anyone does indeed practice physical mortification and doesn’t want to answer in the public forum, feel free to PM me. I have some honest questions regarding your experiences which I think only a person that practices it will be able to answer.

God bless,
Dean

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Just one post I wanted to address specifically…
**Originally Posted by Blue Horizon
*(BTW those ancient practices, if done hygenically, don’t actually cause permanent physical damage. I am not so sure about the state of mind of someone “modern” who would want to do same. I cannot imagine there are large numbers of the faithful who are doing this - unless you know differently!) ***

There are some Catholic organizations that openly support physical mortification of its members (e.g., Opus Dei, etc), and I have found a few posts from people on CAF that practice physical mortification. Even the Blessed Pope John Paul II is alleged to practiced physical mortification.

I’m still not clear on what “benefits” (if that’s the right word) one gets from practicing physical mortification, but I have found what it isn’t:

• It isn’t a way to punish one’s self for sins.
• It isn’t a way to “show off” one’s devotion to God.

Again, I’m still not sure what it “is”, so please let me know if you have an explanation.
Dean

Hello Dean
Yes I am aware of Opus Dei practises (a Spanish founded solidality). It does not suprise me that past Popes (or even the present one) is alleged to make use of such traditional practises. I personally see no harm in it spritually, mentally or physically for them because they are “old fashioned” (I do not mean that perjoratively, I simply mean it is an accepted part of the culture they grew up in and which they no doubt still mentally belong to. It is no different from the “acceptance” of slavery even by intelligent Early Christians). Clearly they have practised same wisely as they do not appear to have been damaged physically or spiritually (on the contrary).

I’ll try and answer in my own words…

Basically we are called to imitate Christ in following His Father’s will rather than our own (“thy will be done on earth…”). Especially as heroically portrayed in the Garden where Jesus’s own personal and human preferences came starkly into contradiction with where His Father’s will appeared to be leading him.

Catholic Theology affirms that “the body” is good but, by reason of the Fall, human nature is wounded and the original “order” that made it naturally easy to do good has been lost. Consequently there is, at worst, a sort of “gravity” (at best a “background noise”) that arises from “the body” which impedes the clear vision and innocent tendency of the will and intellect (the highest faculties of the human person) to see and do God’s will.

Consequently a daily battle against these distortions and disordered tendancies is required to seriously respond to the call of faith. We must “take up our cross” daily. Mortification (“death" to self) is of course an interior **spiritual **battle of the will and intellect that all christians must undertake daily – however body and soul are linked and physical mortification has a role to play above and beyond the natural vicissitudes and loving sacrifices of normal life with other people. Fasting is very traditional one in this regard and can provide extra spiritual strength.

It would therefore seem mortification is intended for focusing and reminding ourselves of our relationship with God and how we must often deny the overcrowding, excessive and sometimes disordered “needs” of the psychosomatic “body” which does get in the way of this goal. The optional physical mortifications you mention go beyond denial, but if they are sought for the same reasonable purposes above and they do not physically harm then it is hard to gainsay them because they come from a solid tradition (at least for celibate monks/nuns/priests).

The problem in my mind is that, for persons coming from a more “modern” English European culture/country, I strongly doubt such disciplines could be practicised for the right reasons. All the more so if such persons are not dedicated celibates, are young, or not under spiritual direction from a well-balanced older priest. It is all too easy (even in religious life) for unconscious motives such as elitism, pride (I can claim holiness for myself by my own strength) and a confused idea that suffering and love are the same thing to arise despite best intentions. That needs to be worked through competently under good, honest spiritual direction.

Whatever Catholics may believe re the alleged apparitions of the Virgin at Garabandal (Spain 1961-1965) I think you may find the reported experience of one of the four young visionaries helpful in this regard. Conchita (still alive today and still with a prominent part to play in the yet awaited fulfilment of the alleged prophecies) was interviewed in 1983 by one Harry Daley (apparantly of no fixed religion at the time) in preperation for a TV doco.

She had just told Harry part of the main message of the Virgin which was “…we must make many sacrifices, perform much penance, and visit the Blessed Sacrament frequently. But, first, we must lead good lives.” Harry asked her what “penance” was all about. Conchita remembered back to those times in the 1960s and said:

“For penance someone [a Spanish priest] once gave us these sorts of belts to wear around our waists…
[Author’s Note: a cilice… the mother of one of the other visionaries would not allow her to wear the belt…the girls wiggled in it to draw the Virgin’s attention. Conchita admits that the Virgin [later] said, “This is not what I mean by penance.”]
During this [particular] apparition, we were pulling at our waists so that the Virgin would realize that we were uncomfortable. The Virgin told us to take the belts off, that we should do our chores and accept the problems of everyday life.
I don’t know what the Virgin meant. I understand it to mean that we should live life from moment to moment, offering everything to God. All people, in their families and in their jobs. Each one knows how to be good…”(Quoted from “Miracle at Garabandal” by Harry Daley. stjosephpublications.com/download/PDF/Miracle_at_Garabandal.pdf)

I don’t think I can put it all any better than that!
The contradiction here is wonderfully harmonious (i.e. a classic old fashioned village with a classic “apparition” … yet with a message that is definitely way ahead of the culture of the participants.)

 

[Edward_H]

Mortification is mentioned in the Bible…in the New Testament in fact. Dying to ourselves. Taking up the cross.

Mortification, practiced under the close care of a spiritual director, has been found to be an effective way of gaining self-mastery, or strengthening for temptation, or putting the intellect and the will back in control of the body and our emotions. Our society no longer seems to distinguish these parts of our being…and, thus - by our nature; we tend to let our emotions drag us around. We listen to our bodies too much at the expense of more demanding charity oftentimes. In fact, you can even see this plea in the advertising: listen to your body.

Sure…we shouldn’t destroy our ability to serve God with our bodies…but most of us are a very long way away from this theoretical danger.

It can exist across a wide continuum…from flagellation to smiling when one doesn’t want to. Denying small preferences throughout the day…taking a smaller portion, taking (if one can do it quietly) the burnt portion, walking instead of taking the elevator, working just a bit longer than your preferences call for; double checking your work, making life pleasant for others (quietly).

All of these little “efforts” can be done, and should be done for the love of God…our intent should be to please or comfort God, not done in any sort of self-serving or prideful way.

Mortification is the prayer of the senses…fasting is another form.

Such forms of prayer, of course, shouldn’t be done outside of a conversation with God. Fasting with God. Everything we do should be a means of seeking closer union with God, right? Work, leisure, devotions, the Mass, etc.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

St Theresa of Lisieux said, “there are enough thorns in everyday life to offer as mortification.”

She at first used a cilice then gave it up and opposed such things.

Personally, I’m opposed to physical mortification which cause such pain to the body for they’re more often than not, being done by people serving an agenda of their own, rather than the will of God.

Jim

 

[dean24us]

Once again, thank to everyone for the thoughtful responses!

I don’t want to oversimplify, but would it be apt to describe physical mortification as being similar to revulsion therapy? Or, to put it a different way, an “electroshock therapy for the spirit”?

God bless,
Dean

 

[Edward_H]

Once again, thank to everyone for the thoughtful responses!

I don’t want to oversimplify, but would it be apt to describe physical mortification as being similar to revulsion therapy? Or, to put it a different way, an “electroshock therapy for the spirit”?

God bless,
Dean

Well I don’t look at mortification like that. I see it as a way to be closer to Jesus, putting my love of God ahead of my momentary preferences, not putting my health in any real jeopardy, but “volunteering” to give effort and a little pain to help Jesus.

Remember, God invented a way for us to all be “Simons of Cyrene”. All moments in time are as present to God. We can walk with Jesus toward Calvary, lightening His load, just like Simon did, by taking up our cross in a spirit of sacrifice. Perhaps going against the grain of our preferences a bit, in union with Him.

We can join our efforts, struggles, and sufferings with Jesus’s offer to the Father. We mortify so that we can be one with Him, not to merely beat back our body. It’s a more positive action.

 

[dean24us]

Well I don’t look at mortification like that. I see it as a way to be closer to Jesus, putting my love of God ahead of my momentary preferences, not putting my health in any real jeopardy, but “volunteering” to give effort and a little pain to help Jesus.

Remember, God invented a way for us to all be “Simons of Cyrene”. All moments in time are as present to God. We can walk with Jesus toward Calvary, lightening His load, just like Simon did, by taking up our cross in a spirit of sacrifice. Perhaps going against the grain of our preferences a bit, in union with Him.

We can join our efforts, struggles, and sufferings with Jesus’s offer to the Father. We mortify so that we can be one with Him, not to merely beat back our body. It’s a more positive action.

I understand what you’re saying in principle, but I’m have trouble grasping how the principle described relates to the actual act.

Again, I don’t want to over-simplify, but does the process go something like:

1. Thought / feeling you want to suppress occurs.
2. Physical mortification occurs, presumably with a prayer asking for forgiveness and strength.
3. Repeat #2 until #1 is suppressed.

If that is indeed the case, it seems like it would indeed be like revulsion therapy – using physical discomfort to “reprogram” one’s brain. Am I missing something?

By the way, I don’t mean to come off as insulting or condescending in comparing physical mortification to revulsion therapy. I am truly trying to understand, and I find that often the best way to do that is compare unfamiliar concepts (i.e. mortification) to familiar ones (i.e. revulsion therapy).

God bless,
Dean

 

[Edward_H]

I understand what you’re saying in principle, but I’m have trouble grasping how the principle described relates to the actual act.

Again, I don’t want to over-simplify, but does the process go something like:

1. Thought / feeling you want to suppress occurs.
2. Physical mortification occurs, presumably with a prayer asking for forgiveness and strength.
3. Repeat #2 until #1 is suppressed.

If that is indeed the case, it seems like it would indeed be like revulsion therapy – using physical discomfort to “reprogram” one’s brain. Am I missing something?

By the way, I don’t mean to come off as insulting or condescending in comparing physical mortification to revulsion therapy. I am truly trying to understand, and I find that often the best way to do that is compare unfamiliar concepts (i.e. mortification) to familiar ones (i.e. revulsion therapy).

God bless,
Dean

Well…here’s how it goes with me. Let’s separate a few things. There are acts…and there are intentions.

Acts might be ‘periods of well done work’, balancing the check book, forgoing preferences, fasting, holding one’s tongue, smiling when we don’t want to, taking the stairs, averting our eyes, paying attention, forgoing seconds, spending a second to form one’s thoughts more clearly and simply, waking up with a bit more vigor, going to bed a bit earlier than you really want. etc.

And there are intentions attached to acts. There are acts of penance, acts of charity, acts of thanksgiving, acts of humility, acts of faith, acts of hope, acts of mortification, etc.

Most any act can be attached to one of these intentions.

So I might mortify myself by averting my eyes, by taking a cold shower, enduring work just a bit longer. Here I am going against my body’s cries for middling comfort. And these should all be done with God in mind, in the presence of God.

I might offer the balancing of a checkbook up for an intention…someone I know who needs a job, who has money trouble, etc. That’s a small act of love…and that might actually lead me to give thanks to God with more sincerity for my own financial situation. Or it may spur me on to be more open to giving money to a good cause. Etc. One act of love often encourages another, perhaps more substantial.

I might instead decide to convert a glance at a woman into a prayer…“Lord, I ask you to guard the safety of all expectant mothers”. That’s just a mental act. Still done for a good intention and still done with God.

So we use the physical to help spur on a more continual conversation with God.

I look at acts of mortification mainly as ways to re-establish the primacy of the will and the intellect over the emotions and the body.

Where an act of penance or atonement becomes an act of mortification or an act of love etc. can seem blurry.

God doesn’t want us to fret over these ‘boundary’ things…he just wants conversation and union with us, our minds, wills, intellect; he wants us unified too.

He wants us to love Him simply…utterly simple.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Mortification helps us put our flesh to death.

I think it’s interesting to read Romans 7 in the context of mortification. Here’s a snippet. If I read this in context I think there may be a connection. Of course I could be totally wrong.

Romans 7
9 I once lived outside the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive;
10 then I died, and the commandment that was for life turned out to be death for me.
11 For sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and through it put me to death.

Also mortification unites us with Jesus and explains multiplication:

John 12
23 Jesus answered them, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
24 Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit."

Mortification is designed to detach us from worldly things and mindsets. Being mortified implies we die to sin, so it can harm us no longer.

Alan

 

[Bookcat]

Here this will help: holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp

 

[Bookcat]

Hello! I am having trouble understanding mortification, specifically the type of mortification where one causes bodily harm to one’s self via flagellation, cilice, chains, etc. I realize that mortification in this manner has a long history both inside and outside of the Church, but I have a difficult time accepting that devotion in this manner is what God intended for us. In short, for reasons which should be obvious, it just seems wrong to me.

Can anyone help me understand why this type of mortification is acceptable (and, in some circle, encouraged) in the Church, and why some even consider it a “good thing” when it seems so wrong?

God bless,
Dean

Here this will help: holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp

(and remember certain mortifications one would need good spiritual direction…some things are only lets say for those called by God to such)

 

[dean24us]

(and remember certain mortifications one would need good spiritual direction…some things are only lets say for those called by God to such)

Isn’t that the truth!

I suppose this is one of those things that I’ll just to have to understand on a logical level, but never really grasp on a spiritual level. It’s hard for me to imagine that beating one’s self with chains, whips, etc can make a person closer to God, but I suppose that the long list of people that have done it means that there is some validity to it (at least, for some people).

Before closing, I want to extend my invitation once more: if anybody does practice physical mortification via “the discipline”, cilice, etc and isn’t comfortable discussing it in open forum, please PM me

God bless,
Dean

 

[Edward_H]

Isn’t that the truth!

I suppose this is one of those things that I’ll just to have to understand on a logical level, but never really grasp on a spiritual level. It’s hard for me to imagine that beating one’s self with chains, whips, etc can make a person closer to God, but I suppose that the long list of people that have done it means that there is some validity to it (at least, for some people).

Before closing, I want to extend my invitation once more: if anybody does practice physical mortification via “the discipline”, cilice, etc and isn’t comfortable discussing it in open forum, please PM me

God bless,
Dean

Is using a discipline substantially different from running 10 miles in training for a marathon? Different from tearing down muscles super-setting for weight lifting competition? Fasting for a wrestling match?

The only difference I see, if the discipline is used as it is intended, is that its use has supernatural effects and the other events don’t (assuming the athletes aren’t offering up their suffering and sacrifice to God).

I am a 27 year Marine and was taught a very simple but brutal way to exercise when I first entered. I’ve been doing it for that long. For years, I have been offering that pain to God for the Holy Father’s intentions.

 

[Bookcat]

Isn’t that the truth!

I suppose this is one of those things that I’ll just to have to understand on a logical level, but never really grasp on a spiritual level. It’s hard for me to imagine that beating one’s self with chains, whips, etc can make a person closer to God, but I suppose that the long list of people that have done it means that there is some validity to it (at least, for some people).

The article there will give an extensive background

 

[Bookcat]

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp

very good article…