Understanding of faith AND works

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Average_Joe17

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So I’ve been searching through multiple threads on this forum for how Faith and works work together side by side, but I still don’t get a clearer understanding of it. I spent some time and thought of how they work together and I hoped you can correct me if I’m wrong.

So we were all conceived with original sin on our soul. As a result, the gates of Heaven were closed and we lost communion with God. No sacrifice that a human could make was worthy to make reparations for the sin, except one. God had sent his Son as a “Savior to free man from sin and to reopen to him the gates of Heaven” ( Baltimore Catechism Book). His death was greater than all of the sins of the world combined, and God accepted his sacrifice. It is said in this website, What is the Redemption , “God has given us the gift of free will. The death of Christ on the cross opened the gates of heaven so that all people might be saved, but because of free will we can choose to reject Christ’s free gift of redemption. Christ’s death on the cross cannot force anyone into heaven, and it is conditional. Only those who return the love of Christ and obey his conditions can justify their place in the kingdom of heaven. We call this process justification.”

One of the conditions Christ says is, " Unless a man be born again of water and the spirit , He cannot enter the kingdom of God." This is commonly known as Baptism.

What is baptism? “Baptism is the sacrament that gives our souls the new life of Sanctifying grace by which we become children of God and heirs of Heaven.” (Baltimore Catechism Book)

Sanctifying Grace is grace that gives our soul new life, a sharing in the life of God himself.
So GRACE IS LIFE!

My question is: By having faith (meaning believing all the truths God has revealed, on the word of God revealing them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived) in God and follow the teachings of what he has said in the Bible, especially Baptism, the channel of Grace is now directed towards us. And now because I have grace, I have life. If i lose faith in Christ, I lose all grace, meaning I have no life.

What does St.James mean without our works, our faith is dead?
 
True Faith will manifest itself in a person through works. Faith illuminates works. Anytime good works are done it is a demonstration of Faith. If works are done in a way where the person is attempting to earn their salvation they are in vain and suffer the same misunderstanding that Pelagius had about salvation.
 
May you please give an example of how good works are a demonstration of faith?
 
Christ says, “if you love Me, keep my commandments” this demonstrates that in order for us to love Christ we are required to participate in his commandments. Through following His commandments (works) we demonstrate that we love (have faith in) Him. Faith isn’t passive, it is active. It requires a response from us.
 
“Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭

“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭

““For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money. “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’ “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:14-30
 
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“The Pharisee was amazed to see that he did not observe the prescribed washing before the meal. The Lord said to him, “Oh you Pharisees! Although you cleanse the outside of the cup and the dish, inside you are filled with plunder and evil. You fools! Did not the maker of the outside also make the inside? But as to what is within, give alms, and behold, everything will be clean for you.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:38-41‬ ‭

“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:33-34‬ ‭

“Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.” And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭19:8-10‬

“Our people must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭

“But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:17-18, 23
 
“For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name. He is your praise and He is your God, who has done these great and awesome things for you which your eyes have seen.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭10:17-21‬

““If there is a poor man with you, one of your brothers, in any of your towns in your land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand from your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and shall generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks. Beware that there is no base thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,’ and your eye is hostile toward your poor brother, and you give him nothing; then he may cry to the LORD against you, and it will be a sin in you. You shall generously give to him, and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all your undertakings. For the poor will never cease to be in the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall freely open your hand to your brother, to your needy and poor in your land.’”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭15:7-11‬ ‭

“As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “Sodom, your sister and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭16:48-50
 
Average_Joe17 said:
What does St.James mean without our works, our faith is dead?
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If one truly has FAITH, than one’s actions/works/deeds would reflect that one’s Obeying God’s Command to Love One’s Neighbor in Action - such as giving water to any who ask…

IF one claims to have FAITH, yet Never shows that in Action, then, such is not the same faith which Jesus ASKS of us.

Recall - Even the Devil has faith in the sense that he knows Jesus is the Son of God.

Faith must lead to Hope and Charity/Love.

And of the three … Charity is the greatest and a necessary essential for entrance into Heaven

FAITH? Transforms our Soul - for now it is God’s Spirit Teaching us Re-Pentance // Growth…
_
 
Average_Joe17 said:
What does St.James mean without our works, our faith is dead?
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Faith, itself a gift of grace, is meant to establish communion with God, the source of all grace. If this grace then doesn’t produce fruit, what good is it? What kind of faith leads us nowhere? Another way to put it, by Augustine, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

Love is the ultimate gift of grace and definition of justice or righteousness for man. And love acts-or works-for the good of others by its nature. This is what faith is meant to produce, grace begetting more grace. “The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6
 
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Average_Joe17 . . .
What does St.James mean without our works, our faith is dead?
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Contextually he means it is a REAL faith, but it is not enough to be salvific.
Why not?
Because this faith is devoid of charitable WORKS.

Let me explain please.

First of all, James is talking faith and works in the context of heaven and hell. Salvation.

He is talking about the context of “the crown of life” and “save him”.

And he is talking to people regarding AFTER their moment of salvation.

He is talking to people who have a relationship with God. They have special channels of grace of a fellow Christian. He is talking to “My brethren”.
JAMES 2:1 1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
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James is writing about not merely showing an example to men.
JAMES 1:12, 2:14 12 Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him. . . . . 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
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The reason I mention this, is sometimes people attempt to say James is merely talking about
“justifying” yourself before “men” only in James 2, showing others a good example.

(The Pharisee in Luke 18 tried to justify himself by an example ONLY, and Jesus excoriates this motif.)

Although there is some example-showing in
James 2, it is clear James is NOT REDUCING his teachings down to being a mere exemplar.

He is talking about salvation too.

Now let’s move on. (More in my next post).
 
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James asks . . .
What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works?
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Then he follows it up with a rhetorical question.
Can his faith save him?
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The answer of course to this rhetorical question is “no”.

No, his faith cannot save him
if he has not “love” or “charity” also.

If he has faith, but refuses to work, he will be rejecting salvation.
JAMES 2:17, 24, 26 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . . 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. . . . 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
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.

People will object and say . . . “Well look. If this guy has a REAL faith, he WILL DO WORKS.”

Well that MAY be true for one guy (his supernatural faith motivates him along in his supernatural charity).
But another guy may have a REAL faith but STILL REFUSE to do works.

In that case his REAL FAITH, may be dead, because the guy is refusing to work (thus sinning against charity).

In which case even his REAL SUPERNATURAL faith, will not be enough to save him (he needs charity too).

St. Paul talks about that in 1st Corinthians 13 when he talks of a guy that has
FAITH to proverbially move MOUNTAINS,
but has not “love” (other translations “charity”)
and that guy gains “NOTHING”.

He does not gain Heaven anyway despite the fact that he has faith to move mountains.

That is a REAL faith in 1st Corinthians 13,
but not a faith that is ALIVE or “lively”.
It is a dead faith because he REFUSES to do works IN the GRACE that he has (likewise in James 2).

And so this faith, profits him nothing.
COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XXVIII If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin,
faith also is always lost with it;
or, that the faith which remains, though it be
not a lively faith, is not a true faith;
or, that
he, who has faith without charity,
is not a Christian; let him be anathema.
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The faith this guy has is a REAL authentic faith. Just like the “My brethren” that James is talking to here have.

The guy who has rejected his charity is still a Christian. So if he repents, he just needs to go to Confession, because although out of a state of grace, he is still a Christian. Baptism permenantly confected his soul as a Christian.

“Re-baptism” will not be an option for him as there is no “Re-baptism”.
 
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Average_Joe17 said:
My question is: By having faith (meaning believing all the truths God has revealed, on the word of God revealing them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived) in God and follow the teachings of what he has said in the Bible, especially Baptism, the channel of Grace is now directed towards us. And now because I have grace, I have life. If i lose faith in Christ, I lose all grace, meaning I have no life.
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Just read the Catechism’s section on grace.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
 
Average_Joe17 said:
May you please give an example of how good works are a demonstration of faith?
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Politician claims he is pro-life and that abortion is morally wrong. Politician knocks up his mistress and tries to convince her to get an abortion to cover it up. Politician’s actions demonstrate he does not believe that abortion is morally wrong.

On the other hand…

Woman claims that she is pro-life and believes abortion is morally wrong. Woman becomes pregnant and later learns that her child is likely to have severe complications that could endanger her life and will severely affect the life expectancy or quality of life of the fetus. Despite medical providers/friends/family attempting to convince her to get an abortion the woman carries the pregnancy to term.

Of these two, who by their actions demonstrated their faith in their conviction about abortion? Faith pre-exists our actions, and it is by faith that we are justified before God. However, faith directs how we act. If I believe in a conviction, then when I am tested my actions should reflect that faith. Hope that provides a concrete example.
 
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Obviously - the woman in those two situations is Faithful to Church Teachings

FAITHFUL WORKS (but not the adhering to Mosaic laws) connect with JUDGEMENT

The Sheep and the Goats​

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
Hodos.

Don’t forget the third scenario (there are more than two, or even three) . . . .

Man has faith to move mountains proverbially.
Man has no charity.
Man gains nothing.
 
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Average_Joe17 said:
What does St.James mean without our works, our faith is dead?
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If you don’t live your faith, then you are probably faking it. How can someone accept Christ and follow his teachings, yet not actually show any love for their neighbor? You know a tree by it’s fruit and a child of Christ will bear good fruit.

Coming at it from the other direction, what if you don’t yet know Christ but you are trying. What if you are doing good works because you feel obligated or were told to? I believe the act of doing good deeds, even if for impure motivation (looking good) still helps open your heart to increasing guidance by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Hello brethern.

I think we are forgeting something we all agree: We are saved by Grace: Catholics, Orthodox and Prots agree.

Through faith: All agre.

The problem comes what kind of faith. Faith is not just the intellectual assertion of any christian (triniatrian) teaching. Faith is also you part of your living. Even Calvin said: “we are saved by faith alone but faith never goes alone”.

The practical problem here is this:

Protestantism: Faith produces works (it has the risk of being relaxed and wait for divine ilumination to do good works) And that could convert you in a lazy sinner who waits that God might force you to do good deeds.

Catholicism: Faith requieres works. (it has the risk of wiilling to earn the salvation) I’m spanish and for a reason we have a saying here when we talk about a good person; Tiene el cielo ganado = He or she Has earned his/her place in heaven.

We should be balanced , Myself I am a protestant who belivies that salvation can be lost or forfeit. More problematic for some who belives once saved always saved.

Now with the text of james there are basically 2 readings:

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

Now comes the controversy, justification can mean vindication. That the average protestant position of accepting it means vindiciation and not that works have an ontologically effect on faith.

Cyril of Alexandria: “So even if Abraham was also justified by his willingness to sacrifice Isaac, this must be regarded as an evident demonstration of a faith which was already very strong” (Explanation of the Letter to the Romans, quoted in Ancient Christian Commentary on the Scripture, New Testament VI, p. 110).

Clement (80-140 A.D.): So all of them received honor and greatness, not through themselves or their own deeds or the right things they did, but through his will. And we, therefore, who by his will have been called in Jesus Christ, are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight of religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning . To him be glory forever and ever. Amen. (Clement, Clement’s First Letter , 32.3-4)
 
The other reading the catholic one has more background more fathers and more proponets. Thats to say that works have and ontologically effect on faith it perfects it as James says.
I only quoted fathers for the protestant position cause to my knowledge there are two only.

Finally I’d say we are saying pretty much the same for lay ppl:

3+1=4
2+2= 4

A man need faith and works, whether it is faith that produces works or Faith+works.

God bless yall
 
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