H
Hodos
Guest
I’m not. I just thought it was a good illustration.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Fair enough.
H
Hodos
Guest
That is an interesting way of looking at things. Personally, I would go to Romans 1 and 2 and just understand that God has written his will on our hearts (and our good works demonstrate that), but in our sinful nature we exchange the truth of God, his rulership and authority over us, for a lie. That’s my take. That being said, I do think that a non-believer who does good works may be doing so because the Holy Spirit may be leading them to faith, or not.Coming at it from the other direction, what if you don’t yet know Christ but you are trying. What if you are doing good works because you feel obligated or were told to? I believe the act of doing good deeds, even if for impure motivation (looking good) still helps open your heart to increasing guidance by the Holy Spirit.
Last edited:
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Hodos . . .
In our justifying works, those works are initiated by God, carried out by God, and completed by God . . .
. . . WITH our cooperation.
Understanding His will is great, but it is not enough. (That reduces our doing God’s will down to mere knowledge.)Personally, I would go to Romans 1 and 2 and just understand that God has written his will on our hearts . . .
In our justifying works, those works are initiated by God, carried out by God, and completed by God . . .
. . . WITH our cooperation.
TRENT Sess. 6 Chap 16. . . . . For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, - as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, - and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting.
Last edited:
H
Hodos
Guest
My point is not that unbelievers do God’s will, but that they know the moral law that God has given us and so no one has any excuse before God. All are guilty as sinners, and apart from faith in Christ, they stand accused by the law.Understanding His will is great, but it is not enough. (That reduces our doing God’s will down to mere knowledge.)
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Hodos . . .
.
For lurkers here (so they do not get confused, Inwant to clarify) . . .
Hodos here is describing NATURAL VIRTUE.
And Hodos is correct. Unbelievers DO have the natural law written on their hearts (believers do too).
And to blow off that natural law, they will have no excuse.
Our sin darkens our intellect and reaffirming this natural law may be helpful for unbelievers.
Yet we still NEED more (as Hodos is not denying here).
We NEED Christ.
We need Christ in our faith (a natural faith isn’t enough as St. John’s Gospel suggests to us in John 2 - humanity stll needs Jesus to give them faith too.
"Many believed in His name, yet Jesus [at this point] did not “faith Himself” unto them.)
We need Christ in our hope.
We need Christ in our charitable works. (God is at WORK IN YOU, both for the will and good pleasure of the Father. Which is WHY we can WORK out our salvation once Christ is IN US.)
True. Good point Hodos.My point is not that unbelievers do God’s will, but that they know the moral law that God has given us and so no one has any excuse before God.
.
For lurkers here (so they do not get confused, Inwant to clarify) . . .
Hodos here is describing NATURAL VIRTUE.
And Hodos is correct. Unbelievers DO have the natural law written on their hearts (believers do too).
And to blow off that natural law, they will have no excuse.
Our sin darkens our intellect and reaffirming this natural law may be helpful for unbelievers.
Yet we still NEED more (as Hodos is not denying here).
We NEED Christ.
We need Christ in our faith (a natural faith isn’t enough as St. John’s Gospel suggests to us in John 2 - humanity stll needs Jesus to give them faith too.
"Many believed in His name, yet Jesus [at this point] did not “faith Himself” unto them.)
We need Christ in our hope.
We need Christ in our charitable works. (God is at WORK IN YOU, both for the will and good pleasure of the Father. Which is WHY we can WORK out our salvation once Christ is IN US.)
Last edited:
E
EndTimes
Guest
Major point!Man has faith to move mountains proverbially.
Man has no charity.
Man gains nothing .
God Commanded us: Love Thy Neighbor…
And He shall be looking to see IF we Obeyed Him.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
======================
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Cathoholic paraphrasing 1st Corinthians 13
EndTimes . . .
.
And even that obedience needs to be coupled to Christ.
The reason we can have meritorious works, is because of our association with God.
Without such an association, we could not merit.
And Jesus associating Himself with us, makes His WORK even more illustrious!
.Man has faith to move mountains proverbially.
Man has no charity.
Man gains nothing.
EndTimes . . .
Excellent point EndTimes!Major point!
God Commanded us: Love Thy Neighbor…
And He shall be looking to see IF we Obeyed Him.
.
And even that obedience needs to be coupled to Christ.
The reason we can have meritorious works, is because of our association with God.
Without such an association, we could not merit.
TRENT Session 6 - For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, - as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, - and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God . . .
.TRENT Session 6 CANON XXXII - If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.
And Jesus associating Himself with us, makes His WORK even more illustrious!
.TRENT Session 6 CANON XXXIII - If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
TRENT Session 6 For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless . . .
Last edited:
A
annad347
Guest
God know why you are doing what you are doing. He knows the truth behind your good works or any action you do in his name.21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Weather or not you are truly following His will or if you are doing something in His name to they and gain favor either by the person you are doing good for or by God. You can not fool God.
E
EndTimes
Guest
Of Course…And even that obedience needs to be coupled to Christ.
The reason we can have meritorious works, is because of our association with God.
Without such an association, we could not merit.
Scriptures and Church Teachings are exceedingly clear on that…
I’ve found the Pearl of Great Worth!
E
EndTimes
Guest
Of Course. .God know why you are doing what you are doing. He knows the truth behind your good works or any action you do in his name.
Weather or not you are truly following His will or if you are doing something in His name to they and gain favor either by the person you are doing good for or by God. You can not fool God.
And… We’ll surely find out about that come the Last Judgement, yes?
)_
- Status
- Not open for further replies.