Understanding Of Forgiveness?

[CRATUS]

So you forgive others because if you do not, it will hurt you. Well what happens to those hurt you then? I understand this is a bit invasive. If someone wrongs you, it becomes your fault for not forgiving them. Nothing seems to happen on their behalf. They move on, probably have forgotten you and are happy. It always seems like the selfish and cruel are always happy. Sure they may feel guilty. Some people honestly never do feel guilt, if they do, it is short-lived anyways.

 

[WKW_69]

You only have to grant forgiveness if someone apologizes for their transgression, God does not forgive us if we do not confess our sins and ask for forgiveness.

 

[GoldenSeal]

So you forgive others because if you do not, it will hurt you. Well what happens to those hurt you then? I understand this is a bit invasive. If someone wrongs you, it becomes your fault for not forgiving them. Nothing seems to happen on their behalf. They move on, probably have forgotten you and are happy. It always seems like the selfish and cruel are always happy. Sure they may feel guilty. Some people honestly never do feel guilt, if they do, it is short-lived anyways.

As one who sometimes has trouble moving on from past hurt, I read your post and know I have been there.

Ultimately, it’s not about the people who have betrayed or otherwise hurt you. By keeping them front and center in your thoughts, you give them control over you and power to influence your mood each and every day of your life. Not forgiving–and I don’t mean reconciling, I simply mean forgiving–not forgiving someone keeps you bonded to them.

There have been people I’ve felt unable to forgive. I think the first step is to acknowledge the need to forgive, if only to obey God. (Not because the other person deserves it in any way.) Sometimes I’ve had to pray for the will to forgive and acknowledge that I wasn’t the least bit interested in doing it.

God can intervene to help in astonishing ways. When I made my first Confession, I was blessed by the sense of having many old resentments simply fall away; it was like chains dropping off. Confessing any tendencies to hold onto bitterness, resentment and the like helps, I believe, to let these things go. Ultimately, you are releasing your painful feelings to God, and you are leaving the offender(s) to God’s justice.

It is a spiritual battle.

 

[CRATUS]

As one who sometimes has trouble moving on from past hurt, I read your post and know I have been there.

Ultimately, it’s not about the people who have betrayed or otherwise hurt you. By keeping them front and center in your thoughts, you give them control over you and power to influence your mood each and every day of your life. Not forgiving–and I don’t mean reconciling, I simply mean forgiving–not forgiving someone keeps you bonded to them.

There have been people I’ve felt unable to forgive. I think the first step is to acknowledge the need to forgive, if only to obey God. (Not because the other person deserves it in any way.) Sometimes I’ve had to pray for the will to forgive and acknowledge that I wasn’t the least bit interested in doing it.

God can intervene to help in astonishing ways. When I made my first Confession, I was blessed by the sense of having many old resentments simply fall away; it was like chains dropping off. Confessing any tendencies to hold onto bitterness, resentment and the like helps, I believe, to let these things go. Ultimately, you are releasing your painful feelings to God, and you are leaving the offender(s) to God’s justice.

It is a spiritual battle.

Maybe I should go to confession as well. Perhaps I do not understand what forgiveness truly means.

 

[josh987654321]

So you forgive others because if you do not, it will hurt you.

That is one realization that I believe helps us to forgive those who have mistreated us.

‘Hating someone is like drinking a poison and expecting the other person to die’

Well what happens to those hurt you then?

I don’t know.

In a book I was reading about forgiveness, Jesus said "Forgive, not from the lips but from the heart, and then I can work."

I understand this is a bit invasive. If someone wrongs you, it becomes your fault for not forgiving them.

I think it’s important to look at what hatred and vengeance are and what they do, if someone mistreats you, how does mistreating them back help you? instead of one person being mistreat, now two have been mistreated. Hatred begets more hatred, vengeance begets more vengeance.

Nothing seems to happen on their behalf. They move on, probably have forgotten you and are happy. It always seems like the selfish and cruel are always happy. Sure they may feel guilty. Some people honestly never do feel guilt, if they do, it is short-lived anyways.

Maybe, but none of this said anything about you. What are YOU going to do? I believe forgiveness is the only answer. Dr Phil once said, “Don’t get caught up in whether your situation is fair or unfair, get over it and figure out how to win.” Forgiving is how you win, because it frees you! (Then with clarity you can see what needs to be done without your judgement being clouded with hatred, anger, resentment or vengeance), and not only that, but if the other party is repentant, it produces great fruits in them too.

I hope you don’t mind if I share some thoughts on forgiveness from the book ‘Life Code’ by Dr Phil and other places.

“Hating someone is like drinking a poison and expecting the other person to die.”

I believe that If you feel hatred, anger or resentment, than you own those feelings and that is why there only is one thing worse than being hurt by someone and that is keeping that hurt alive, you have the ability to forgive those people who have mistreated you, not just as a gift to them, but as a gift to yourself. (It’s a twofold gift)

Forgiveness will set you free from pain others have caused you in your life, forgiveness will free you from the hatred anger or resentment that you choose to carry and these feelings change who you are, your hatred, anger, and resentment are absolutely incompatible with your peace, joy, and relaxation.

To assume that you can turn your feelings of hate, anger or resentment on and off like a light switch is naïve, these feelings of bitterness and anger are such powerful influences that once they enter your heart, they are present in all of your relationships.

They truly do make you become a different person. Who you were goes away, and now you are defined by the hatred and bitterness. Ultimately, what makes these emotions so powerful is that they change who you are.

I believe There is something else you must consider: you cannot give away what you do not have.

You cannot give pure and accepting love from a pure and accepting heart if you have neither. That would mean giving away what you do not have. If the love in your heart is contaminated, if growing within it is the cancer of hatred, anger, and resentment, then that is the only love that you have to give.

If your heart has turned cold and hard because of hatred, anger, and resentment, then that is the heart from which all your emotions spring. That is the love and that is the heart that you have to offer your loved ones and fellow human beings. Hatred, anger, and resentment truly change who you are. They truly prevent you from being able to give to those you love that which you want them to have.

Many people say:* “I can’t forgive because they aren’t sorry and they don’t deserve or even want my forgiveness.”* If that’s the standard, there are many people in this world who, clearly, will never be entitled to forgiveness, however forgiveness is about you too, it’s about the gift of freeing yourself from such ugly emotions, you didn’t do the crime, so why do the additional time?

It’s about you saying "I will not bond with you through hatred, anger, or resentment. I will not bond with you through fear. I will not allow you to drag me into your dark world. By forgiving you, I am releasing me, not you. You must live with yourself every day. You must live with the darkness in your heart. But I do not, and I will not, You are the one who committed the crime, I don’t have to continue to suffer for it and I refuse to, by forgiving you I am releasing myself from that emotional prison you have locked me in, you cannot mistreat me and than continue hurting me through those feelings of hatred, anger or resentment, I make that choice, not you.”

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[josh987654321]

Paraphrased from 'The Seven Riddles of Life' by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen:

And the second reason for forgiving is to prevent the multiplication of hate, which is a seed and grows like a weed. If a number of men are standing in a line and the first slaps the cheek of the second, and the second the third, the only way to stop hate would be for one man in that crowd to turn his other cheek. By doing so he would say, “If I hate you, I add my quota to the sum total of the world’s hate. This I refuse to do. I will kill your hate. I will drive it even from the face of the Earth. And I will do it by loving you.”

The real test, then, of the Christian is not how much he loves his friends (for do not the heathens do this? Matthew 5:43-48) but, rather, how much he loves his enemies.

God cannot write on the pages of a heart when they are covered with the scribbling of hate. But he can write straight even with crooked lines on the blank page of he who loves. For by putting love where we do not find it, then everyone becomes lovable.

Take the power back from those who have hurt you. The Choice is, and always has been, all yours. The power of forgiveness is the power to set yourself free from the bonds of hatred, anger, and resentment. Seize the power and rise above the pain. You are worth it, and everyone you love deserves it.

Christ told us that our Hearts are where our treasure is. “Your heart will always be where your treasure is.” Matthew 6:21. It’s a treasure that does not rust and cannot be stolen! It can only be thrown away, and we choose to throw it away when we harbor those ugly emotions of hatred anger, or resentment toward someone who has mistreated us, take the power back from those who have hurt you! take your treasure back! Forgiveness is a gift! reclaim your heart!

“Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.” - Romans 12:21

I believe there is nothing to be gained by harboring emotions of hatred, anger or resentment toward someone … nothing but more pain and heartache for yourself and others.

After forgiveness, I believe when you think of the wrong doing, instead of emotions such as hatred, anger or resentment, these will instead be emotions of pity.

Pity means feeling for others, particularly feelings of sadness or sorrow towards someone, this I believe is what replaces those ugly emotions of hatred, anger and resentment towards someone, this is what I believe forgiveness does, I believe you cannot become indifferent about such mistreatment, but you can remove those ugly emotions through forgiveness, forgiveness replaces those ugly emotions with pity, because I believe it doesn’t take much work to realize that those who have mistreated you are usually locked in their own emotional prison of hatred, anger and resentment themselves. Thus I believe it’s as Bishop Fulton J. Sheen mentioned, where the hatred gets passed on until the line is severed through forgiveness.

In saying all of this, I would also like to say that I believe forgiveness doesn’t mean putting yourself in vulnerable situations though, as it says in the gospels “don’t give to dogs what belongs to God as they will only turn and attack you.” Matthew 7:6 and “I am sending you like lambs into a pack of wolves. So be as wise as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Watch out for people who will take you to court and have you beaten in their meeting places.” Matthew 10:16-17

I believe you don’t judge people to be good or bad, you instead gather information about a person and make an informed decision. As Dr Phil say’s “I believe giving people the benefit of the doubt is reckless, not virtuous”

I would also like to share with you some Dr Phil quotes on forgiveness that I believe are very good.

Forgiveness is a choice. Don’t wait for it to just wash over you all of a sudden. You have to choose it. - Dr Phil

Don’t give your power away. The pain of what happened is inevitable, but continuing to suffer is optional. The only person you can control is you. By constantly re-living the pain of what happened, you are giving your power away to the person who wronged you. - Dr Phil

Don’t cling to negative feelings. Anger is nothing more than an outward sign of hurt, fear, guilt, grief or frustration. While the pain may never completely disappear, forgiveness can help you release the anger and bring those in your life closer to you. - Dr Phil

There is no right timeline for recovery. For some people, making peace happens suddenly and spontaneously. For others, it takes time and effort. You may have to make a conscious choice every day to forgive. To say, “I’m letting this go. I’m not going to invest hatred, bitterness, anger, resentment in this person anymore.” You can find closure in forgiveness. - Dr Phil

You can’t change the things that happened in your life, but you can decide how you interpret and respond to them. If you didn’t receive support when you needed it, give it to yourself now. - Dr Phil

The stronger the emotions of hatred, anger or resentment, the greater the gifts that you will receive when you let them go. “He who knows how to forgive prepares for himself many graces from God. As often as I look upon the cross, so often will I forgive with all my heart.” St Faustina (Diary, 390)

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[josh987654321]

I believe the following may also help.

Jesus to St. Faustina

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**1) …Look at Me, My beloved ones. Letting Myself be led with the meekness of a lamb to the terrible torture of the scourging. On My Body, already covered with blows and overwhelmed with fatigue, the executioners cruelly discharge terrible lashes with braided rope, with rods. They punish Me so violently that there was no part of Me which was not prey to the most terrible pain… The blows and the kicks caused Me countless wounds… The rods tore away pieces of My skin and flesh. Blood flowed from all My limbs. Time after time I fell because of the pain caused by the blows to My manliness. My Body was in such a state that I resembled a monster more than a man. The features of My face had lost their shape; it was all swollen.

1. The thought of so many souls, who would later be inspired to follow My footsteps, consumed Me with Love.
2. During My hours in prison, I saw the faithful imitators learning from My meekness, patience, and serenity. Not only accepting suffering and scorn but even loving those who persecute them and, if necessary, sacrificing themselves for them as I sacrificed Myself.
3. During those hours of solitude in the midst of so much pain, I became enflamed, more and more, with desires of fulfilling perfectly the Will of My Father. How I offered Myself in reparation for His deeply offended Glory! Thus you, religious souls who find yourselves in the prison chosen out of love, who more than once pass before the eyes of creatures as useless and possibly harmful, do not be afraid. Let them shout against you and, during those hours of pain and solitude, unite your heart intimately with your God, the only object of your love. Make reparation for His Glory violated by so many sins.**

Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**When I was seized in the Garden, My accusers were quick with every lie and I, without the least resistance, allowed them to take Me to wherever they wanted. And when they wanted to encircle My Head with the crown of thorns, I bowed My Head without resistance, because I took everything from the hands of the One who had sent Me into the world.

1. When the arms of those cruel men were exhausted by the violence of discharging blows against My Body, they placed upon My head a crown woven with branches of thorns, and parading before Me they said: “So you are a King? We salute you!”
2. Some spat at Me; others insulted Me; still others dealt further blows to My head, each one adding a new pain to My Body, so battered and destroyed.
3. I am tired; I have nowhere to rest. Lend Me your heart and your arms to cover Myself in your love. I am cold and feverish; embrace Me for an instant before they continue destroying this temple of Love.**

Jesus to Catalina:

The Stations of the Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf

**Crowned with thorns and covered with a purple mantle, the soldiers presented Me again to Pilate. Not finding a crime that he could punish Me for, Pilate was looking for a way to set Me free. In the pitiable condition that I was in, Pilate showed Me to the mob. He proposed to give Me liberty and condemn Barrabas, a famous thief and murderer. The people shouted back: “Crucify Him and set Barrabas free!”

Souls who love Me, see how they have compared Me to a criminal. How they have lowered Me more than the worst criminal. Meditate for a moment upon the unspeakable martyrdom of My Heart: My Heart degraded beneath the heart of Barrabas. I am the most despised of men, and I am being condemned to death like an infamous criminal. Pilate has pronounced sentence. My little children, consider attentively how My Heart suffered…**

Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**5) The fatigue that I feel is so great and the Cross so heavy that halfway along the path, I fall from weakness. See how those inhuman men lift Me up in the most brutal manner. One grabs My arm, another pulls My clothes that are stuck to My wounds, tearing them open again… This one grabs Me by the neck, another by the hair; others discharge dreadful blows to My whole Body, with their fists, and even with their feet. The Cross falls upon Me and with its weight causes new wounds. My face is scraped by the stones in the road and the blood which runs down My face sticks to My eyes that are almost closed because of the blows they have received. The dust and the mud mingle with the blood and I am turned into the most repugnant of objects.

1. My Father sends Angels to help support Me so that My Body does not lose consciousness when it falls, so that the battle may not be won before its time and all My souls are lost.
2. I walk over the stones that destroy My feet. I stumble and fall time and time again. I look at both sides of the road, searching for the slightest look of love, of surrender, of union with My pain, but… I do not see anyone.
3. My children, you who follow in My footsteps, do not let go of your cross no matter how heavy it seems to you. Do it for Me because by carrying your cross, you will help Me carry Mine, and on the difficult path, you will find My Mother and the holy souls who will give you encouragement and comfort.**

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[josh987654321]

Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**Look with what cruelty these hardened men surround Me. Some pull the Cross and lay it on the ground; others tear off My clothes that adhere to the wounds that again open and blood again oozes out.

1. Look, beloved children, at how much shame and confusion I suffer seeing Myself this way before that immense crowd… What sorrow for My soul!
2. The executioners tear off My tunic and cast lots for it; the tunic with which My Mother so carefully clothed Me during My childhood, and which She had been increasing in size as I grew. What would be My Mother’s affliction as She contemplates this scene?
3. How She must have desired to keep that tunic, now stained and soaked with My Blood.
4. But the hour has arrived and the executioners stretching Me out upon the Cross, grab My arms and pull them until they reach the holes prepared in it. My whole Body is breaking; it swings from one side to the other and the thorns of the crown penetrate even deeper into My head. Listen to the first blow of the hammer that nails My right hand… It resounds to the depths of the earth. Listen yet again… now they are nailing My left hand and, in the presence of such a spectacle, the heavens tremble, and the Angels prostrate themselves. I keep the most profound silence. Neither a complaint, nor a moan escapes My lips, but My tears mingle with the blood that covers My face.
5. After they have nailed My hands, they cruelly pull My feet… My wounds open, the nerves in My hands and arms tear; the bones are dislocated… The pain is intense!
6. My feet are pierced and My Blood soaks the earth!…**

http://s24.postimg.org/s91lh9u91/Crucifixion.jpg
The Gospel of Luke:

The Crucifixion of Jesus

34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
**
"Contemplate My wounds and see if there is anyone who has suffered as much as I, to show their love…

"Contemplate for a moment these bloodstained hands and feet… This naked body, covered with wounds, with urine, and blood. Dirty… This head punctured by sharp thorns, soaked in sweat, full of dust, and covered in Blood…

"Contemplate your Jesus, hanging on the Cross, without being able to make the slightest movement… naked, without fame, without honor, without liberty…

"Contemplate Me in the image of the Christ that weeps and bleeds. There and in this way the world has Me **

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[josh987654321]

Divine Mercy Image - St. Faustina

http://s8.postimg.org/422f1cyxh/Christ_9.jpg

Jesus to St Faustina -

"These two rays issued forth from the very depths of My tender mercy when My agonized Heart was opened by a lance on the Cross." (Diary, 299)

"My Heart overflows with great mercy for souls, and especially for poor sinners. If only they could understand that I am the best of Fathers to them and that it is for them that the Blood and Water flowed from My Heart as from a fount overflowing with mercy. For them I dwell in the tabernacle as King of Mercy. I desire to bestow My graces upon souls, but they do not want to accept them. You, at least, come to Me as often as possible and take these graces they do not want to accept. In this way you will console My Heart. Oh, how indifferent are souls to so much goodness, to so many proofs of love! My heart drinks only of the ingratitude and forgetfulness of souls living in the world. They have time for everything, but they have no time to come to Me for graces." (Diary, 367).

"My mercy is greater than your sins and those of the entire world. Who can measure the extent of my goodness? For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485).

**“My daughter, know that My Heart is mercy itself. From this sea of mercy, graces flow out upon the whole world. No soul that has approached Me has ever gone away unconsoled. All misery gets buried in the depths of My mercy, and every saving and sanctifying grace flows from this fountain…” **(Diary, 1777).

http://s28.postimg.org/6bvy5pai5/Prodigal_Son.jpg
Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

I want to teach sinners that because they have sinned, they should not distance themselves from Me thinking that they no longer have recourse and that they will never be loved as before they sinned. Poor souls! These are not the feelings of a God who has shed all His Blood for you. Come to Me all of you and fear not, because I love you. I will cleanse you with My Blood and you will be as white as snow. I will drown your sins in the water of My Mercy and nothing will be able to snatch from My Heart the Love that I have for you.

Jesus to Catalina:

The Great Crusade of Mercy - loveandmercy.org/Eng-CM-Reg.pdf

**I want to talk to you about My Mercy; I want to teach you Mercy; I want you to preach My Mercy. But in order to speak of it, you need to feel love because a person who does not love, cannot know Mercy.

1. If you love, it is because I loved you first; just as I am Love. Whoever knows how to love remains in Me and I in him. My Father did not send Me as an offering for you to love Me, but because My Father is Love and I am one with My Father. Therefore, understand that nothing is sweeter than love, for it proceeds from the One who is the Creator of everything.
2. And so, if you want to be merciful to your fellow human being, first you have to love and be compassionate to that person and if you want to receive Mercy, you must let yourself be loved. Mercy is the chain that unites with love, for one cannot love without being merciful. Understand that My love is without measure, it does not feel burdensome, nor does it value effort, it is simply given. You, on the other hand, are weak in love and imperfect in virtue; you are in need of My strength and of My comfort.**

Jesus to Catalina:

The Great Crusade of Mercy - loveandmercy.org/Eng-CM-Reg.pdf

11) Mercy is love, My child. It is union with God and union with God is the certitude of victory and an everlasting abundance of virtues. Mercy is the unquestionable proof of love for Me.

Jesus to St Faustina

"I am giving you three ways of exercising mercy toward your neighbor: the first by deed, the second – by word, the third – by prayer. In these three degrees is contained the fullness of mercy, and it is an unquestionable proof of love for Me." (Diary, 742)

Sacred Heart of Jesus Image - (St Margaret-Mary Alacoque)

http://s7.postimg.org/4jx43bm1n/Christ_7.jpg

Jesus to St Margaret-Mary Alacoque -

**"Behold this Heart which has loved men so much that it has spared nothing, even to exhausting **(Crucifixion) and consuming itself (Last Supper, Eucharist) in order to testify to them it’s love."

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[GoldenSeal]

So you forgive others because if you do not, it will hurt you. Well what happens to those hurt you then? I understand this is a bit invasive. If someone wrongs you, it becomes your fault for not forgiving them. Nothing seems to happen on their behalf. They move on, probably have forgotten you and are happy. It always seems like the selfish and cruel are always happy. Sure they may feel guilty. Some people honestly never do feel guilt, if they do, it is short-lived anyways.

CRATUS, it sounds as if you might think that forgiving someone means that you have to feel affection and warmth for the person, or the love that you had before. That isn’t true. I like what josh987654321 said, particularly his quotes from Dr. Phil. When you forgive someone, you don’t have to “take them back” or act as if what they did wasn’t really that bad.

For example, if a family member abuses your child, you may eventually forgive and move on–but that doesn’t mean you allow that family member around your child ever again. If someone has betrayed your trust, you don’t have to pretend it never happened in order to forgive.

I think you know you’ve forgiven when you see the person who betrayed you and are able to wish him or her well. When you can see the person and feel sorry for how miserable they must be to have hurt you like that. Praying for that person, whether you feel like it or not, is helpful. Feelings are irrelevant; you don’t have to feel good about it.

It’s about getting your life back, not to mention your peace. It’s about severing that bond created by anger, hurt and eventually bitterness. It’s about being free.

 

[josh987654321]

CRATUS, it sounds as if you might think that forgiving someone means that you have to feel affection and warmth for the person, or the love that you had before. That isn’t true. I like what josh987654321 said, particularly his quotes from Dr. Phil. When you forgive someone, you don’t have to “take them back” or act as if what they did wasn’t really that bad.

For example, if a family member abuses your child, you may eventually forgive and move on–but that doesn’t mean you allow that family member around your child ever again. If someone has betrayed your trust, you don’t have to pretend it never happened in order to forgive.

I think you know you’ve forgiven when you see the person who betrayed you and are able to wish him or her well. When you can see the person and feel sorry for how miserable they must be to have hurt you like that. Praying for that person, whether you feel like it or not, is helpful. Feelings are irrelevant; you don’t have to feel good about it.

It’s about getting your life back, not to mention your peace. It’s about severing that bond created by anger, hurt and eventually bitterness. It’s about being free.

Thank you GoldenSeal.

I agree with everything you said accept for the part about ‘feelings being irrelevant’ Only because I believe that for forgiveness to be truly fruitful, it needs to come from the heart, out of a love for God being the best (forgiving for the sake of what Christ went through for us), which I believe means feelings are important. As Jesus said 'Forgive, not from the lips, but from the heart, then I can work.'

However, in saying that, I have not been mistreated as severely as some people and so I don’t know how I would go if I were in anyone else’s shoes, As C.S. Lewis says in his book ‘every one says forgiveness is a lovely idea, until they have something to forgive’ So if anything I’ve said on this subject doesn’t help than please feel free to disregard it.

Anyway, I hope you don’t mind if I share a little more about forgiveness that I believe may also help.
Extract from the book 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis:

Forgiveness

I said in a previous chapter that chastity was the most unpopular of the Christian virtues. But I am not sure I was right. I believe there is one even more unpopular. It is laid down in the Christian rule, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.’ Because in Christian morals ‘thy neighbour’ includes ‘thy enemy’, and so we come up against this terrible duty of forgiving our enemies.

Every one says forgiveness is a lovely idea, until they have something to forgive, as we had during the war. And then, to mention the subject at all is to be greeted with howls of anger. It is not that people think this too high and difficult a virtue: it is that they think it hateful and contemptible. ‘That sort of talk makes them sick,’ they say. And half of you already want to ask me, ‘I wonder how you’d feel about forgiving the Gestapo if you were a Pole or a Jew?’

So do I. I wonder very much. Just as when Christianity tells me that I must not deny my religion even to save myself from death by torture, I wonder very much what I should do when it came to the point. I am not trying to tell you in this book what I could do - I can do precious little - I am telling you what Christianity is. I did not invent it. And there, right in the middle of it, I find ‘Forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sin against us.’ There is no slightest suggestion that we are offered forgiveness on any other terms. It is made perfectly clear that if we do not forgive we shall not be forgiven. There are no two ways about it. What are we to do?

It is going to be hard enough, anyway, but I think there are two things we can do to make it easier. When you start mathematics you do not begin with the calculus; you begin with simple addition. In the same way, if we really want (but all depends on really wanting) to learn how to forgive, perhaps we had better start with something easier than the Gestapo. One might start with forgiving one’s husband or wife, or parents or children, or nearest N.C.O., for something they have done or said in the last week. That will probably keep us busy for the moment. And secondly, we might try to understand exactly what loving you neghbour as yourself means. I have to love him as I love myself. Well, how exactly do I love myself?

Now that I come to think of it, I have not exactly got a feeling of fondness or or affection for myself, and I do not even always enjoy my own society. So apparently ‘love your neighbour’ does not mean ‘feel fond of him’ or ‘find him attractive’. I ought to have seen that before, because, of course, you cannot feel fond of a person by trying. Do I think well of myself, think myself a nice chap? Well, I am afraid I sometimes do (and those are, no doubt, my worst moments) but that is not why I love myself. In fact it is the other way round: my self-love makes me think myself nice, but thinking myself nice is not why I love myself. So loving my enemies does not apparently mean thinking them nice either. That is an enormous relief. For a good many people imagine that forgiving your enemies means making out that they are really not such bad fellows after all, when it is quite plain that they are. Go a step further. In my most clear-sighted moments not only do I not think myself a nice man, but I know that I am a very nasty one. I can look at some of the things I’ve done with horror and loathing. So apparently I am allowed to loath and hate some of the things my enemies do. Now that I come to think of it, I remember Christian teachers telling me long ago that I must hate a bad man’s actions, but not hate the bad man; or, as they would say, hate the sin but not the sinner.

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued:

For a long time I used to think this a silly straw-splitting distinction: how could you hate what a man did and not hate the man? but years later it occurred to me that there was one man to whom I had been doing this all my life - namely myself. However much I might dislike my own cowardice or conceit or greed, I went on loving myself. There had never been the slightest difficulty about it. In fact the very reason why I hated the things was because I loved the man. Just because I loved myself, I was sorry to find I was the sort of man who did those things. Consequently, Christianity does not want us to reduce by one atom the hatred we feel for cruelty and treachery. We ought to hate them. Not one word of what we have said about them needs to be unsaid. But it does want us to hate them in the same way in which we hate things in ourselves: being sorry that the man should have done such things, and hoping, if it is anyway possible, that somehow, sometime, somewhere, he can be cured and made human again.

The real test is this. Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite try, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling , ‘Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,’ or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally, we shall insist on seeing everything - God and our friends and ourselves included - as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed forever in a universe of pure hatred.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[JosieN]

What was said to Catalina regarding Jesus Passion is well written, but are we sure it really was said by HIm?

I would like to hear what others think about this. I did some research on this I am not sure what to believe. here is what I found.

EXTRACT

Not all reports of visions and apparitions are taken seriously by church authorities. For instance, the messages reported by Catalina Rivas were later found to correspond to exact pages of books written by others, and published instructional literature for Catholic seminarians.

Visions of Jesus and Mary

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visions_of_Jesus_and_Mary

 

[JosieN]

I also found this on the internet about Catalina and her visions.

Catalina Rivas is almost certainly a pious fraud. The thrice-married woman hails from Cochabamba, Bolivia, though she now dwells in Mexico (Merida, Yucatan). Her piety is expressed by her alleged stigmata and her alleged “messages” from Jesus, Mary and angels who, for some unexplained reason, dictate their messages to Rivas not only in Spanish, but in Greek, Latin and Polish. (For some unknown reason, Jesus and Mary don’t dictate to Rivas in English, so her “messages” have to be translated into that language. Many are posted on the Internet.) She does not sign her name to her “messages,” preferring to refer to herself as “la sierva de Dios” (the servant of God [sic]) or “la secretaria de Dios” (the secretary of God [sic]). She doesn’t claim to be the author of her books; rather they are said to be channeled (“dictada a la sierva de Dios”). Nor does she have a publishing house. Her books are sold as photocopies.

Because of her alleged stigmata and “messages,” Rivas is considered the spiritual mother of international religious movements known as the Apostolate of the New Evangelization (ANE) (in Spanish, Apostolado de la Nueva Evangelización and The Great Crusade of Love and Mercy (in Spanish, La Gran Cruzada del Amor y Misericordia) and has followers all over the world.

If asked how it is possible for her to have the stigmata and be a pious fraud, the answer is that she does not truly suffer inexplicable wounds. They are most likely self-inflicted wounds, as evidenced by her performance on the Fox Network special “Signs from God [sic]: Science Tests Faith.” If asked how it is possible for her to write books in languages she does not understand, the answer is simple: she copies them.

She has already been caught plagiarizing the work of José Prado Flores and Salvador Gómez of Guadalajara, Mexico. Her messages from God [sic] published in 1996 as “Renovacion Evangelica” (Evangelical Revival) bear a remarkable resemblance to Formacion de Predicadores (Training Preachers) published several years before she got them from “god.” The work of Prado Flores and Gómez was actually written many years before Rivas claimed to have gotten remarkably similar and often identical messages from god. According to Prado Flores, he and Gómez prepared the first version of their work in 1980, gave it as a workshop in 1982 and published it in 1988 [ISBN 83-7224-026-4]. Their work has been translated into Portuguese (1990), Italian (1992) and Polish (1999). Formacion de Predicadores has been published in later editions with different ISBNs: 03-2001-0612 and 10-4933-00-01. I have the 1992 edition published by Kerygma.

José Prado Flores is a respected Mexican author of Catholic books. He has numerous publications to his credit. Salvador Gómez is the author of Para Un Matrimonio Feliz (For a Happy Marriage). Prado Flores has written to me that Rivas has even kept his Mexican examples in her work, which, he says, would only be understood by Mexican readers. Also, in one of her books Rivas claims that Jesus warns us against listening to the authors of books!

Rivas has not always been such a holy person. She was a “fallen-away Catholic” in 1993 when she saw and heard Nancy Fowler in Bolivia. She even went to Conyers, Georgia, in the U.S. to see Fowler, a woman who claims the Virgin Mary appeared to her on the 13th of each month (à la Fatima) for several years. (For some reason, the visions have stopped and for various reasons Fowler has dissociated herself from the Conyers people.) It was in Conyers that Rivas claims to have had her first stigmatic experience. For a while Rivas was a Fowler follower, but she broke away and, as mentioned above, is now considered the spiritual mother of another religious movement. (Fowler has distanced herself from Rivas and a group who tried to publish some of Rivas’s “messages,” noting that Rivas claims to have been in Conyers when she received one of her messages but she could not have been there because of an airline strike.)*

continues

skepdic.com/rivas.html

 

[Eric_Hyom]

You only have to grant forgiveness if someone apologizes for their transgression, God does not forgive us if we do not confess our sins and ask for forgiveness.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, but how could Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Judas who betrayed him, and the soldiers who nailed him to the cross.

We know that Jesus prayed on the cross, forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Does forgiveness mean that; nothing should stand in the way of us loving all our neighbours as we love our self?

 

[JosieN]

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, but how could Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Judas who betrayed him, and the soldiers who nailed him to the cross.

We know that Jesus prayed on the cross, forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Does forgiveness mean that; nothing should stand in the way of us loving all our neighbours as we love our self?

Good question, I believe we should love our neighbours but also ask for forgiveness from God for our sins and for the sins of others as Jesus did when He asked for forgiveness for those who crucified Him. Jesus prayed for them to be forgiven and we must pray and ask for our sins to be forgiven, and we must also pray for those who trespass against us.

 

[josh987654321]

Hi JosieN

What was said to Catalina regarding Jesus Passion is well written, but are we sure it really was said by HIm?

With what I have learned about her writings, I am sure.

I would like to hear what others think about this.

Okay, there have been other threads from other people on her writings such as this thread in 2007.

Catalina Rivas - Any Ideas on Her?

I did some research on this I am not sure what to believe. here is what I found.

Fair enough, no offense intended, but I don’t believe a general Google search is ‘research enough’ on these sorts of things, as a simple Google search I believe will contain much material trying to discredit the Eucharist and Christ too.

I did a simple Google search on St Faustina and found dozens of pages trying to discredit her.

Google: St Faustina True or False?

For more information, I would very much like to recommend the following short pdf. on it.

youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf

For me, the miracles (such as the stigmata) point to their authenticity, the very reputable eye witnesses such as Mike Willesee point to their authenticity, and most of all, the writings themselves I believe point to their authenticity.

I will try and answer the attacks on her writings in my next post.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

.

Article:

Catalina Rivas is almost certainly a pious fraud. The thrice-married woman hails from Cochabamba, Bolivia, though she now dwells in Mexico (Merida, Yucatan). Her piety is expressed by her alleged stigmata and her alleged “messages” from Jesus, Mary and angels who, for some unexplained reason, dictate their messages to Rivas not only in Spanish, but in Greek, Latin and Polish. (For some unknown reason, Jesus and Mary don’t dictate to Rivas in English, so her “messages” have to be translated into that language. Many are posted on the Internet.) She does not sign her name to her “messages,” preferring to refer to herself as “la sierva de Dios” (the servant of God [sic]) or “la secretaria de Dios” (the secretary of God [sic]). She doesn’t claim to be the author of her books; rather they are said to be channeled (“dictada a la sierva de Dios”). Nor does she have a publishing house. Her books are sold as photocopies.

I thought one of the signs of false private revelation was that the ‘individual’ became more important while ‘Christ’ became less important, in this case it’s the opposite, as she does not sign ‘her’ name at the end of these writings, so I am unsure why this is considered as evidence against their authenticity?

I also believe that English is not her native language so I don’t understand why it would be expected to be written in English. I also believe that the original ones without being translated contain a certain lyrical aspect to them, they read the same but almost like poetry in the original languages, which I believe would explain why they were written in these certain languages.
Article:

Because of her alleged stigmata and “messages,” Rivas is considered the spiritual mother of international religious movements known as the Apostolate of the New Evangelization (ANE) (in Spanish, Apostolado de la Nueva Evangelización and The Great Crusade of Love and Mercy (in Spanish, La Gran Cruzada del Amor y Misericordia) and has followers all over the world.

If asked how it is possible for her to have the stigmata and be a pious fraud, the answer is that she does not truly suffer inexplicable wounds. They are most likely self-inflicted wounds, as evidenced by her performance on the Fox Network special “Signs from God [sic]: Science Tests Faith.” If asked how it is possible for her to write books in languages she does not understand, the answer is simple: she copies them.

youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf

Mike Willesee made his first trip to Bolivia in July 1998. He went back in Holy Week of April 1999 bringing with him his own film crew to record the story for the Fox Network Television Program. He was hoping that Katya would have the stigmata on Good Friday of that week and that he would be able to film it. The day before Good Friday, Katya said to Mr Willesee that she had had a message from Jesus saying that she would not have the stigmata the next day but that she would have it on the Friday following the Feast of Corpus Christi (which would make it Friday, 4th June 1999, some two months away) and that he could return then and film what happens.

We retuned on 3rd June and we were given unrestricted freedom to film. We began filming her on the evening of the 3rd and then through the next day. At 12 noon, on 4thJune, at the exact time and date that Katya predicted the stigmata would occur, we saw and filmed small red dots appear on her palms and her feet. These marks then slowly opened up to form somewhat circular and deep severe wounds which began to shed blood. There was a symmetry to the way the wounds appeared and developed in both hands and both feet. They all began at the same time and progressed as bleeding wounds at the same rate. While wounds appeared on her hands and feet, wounds began to appear on her forehead.

The wounds on the forehead appeared one after another across the forehead as we watched. These wounds looked as if they had been caused by something sharp, small and pointed. There were perhaps 20 or so. On her left cheek there appeared a swelling and a heavy bruise mark, of the sort that one sees when someone has been given a hard punch to the face.

Throughout all this Katya was seen to suffer the pains of the wounds she had. As the time approached 3 pm she began to suffer from difficulty in breathing and what seemed like a congestion in her lungs. At about 3.10 pm, all the pain subsided, and her injuries began to heal.

By the next morning the injuries she had to her body had completely healed. (The medical opinion is that the wounds like she had should have taken at least 4 to 6 weeks to heal).There were at least 9 people in the room who witnessed Katya experience the stigmata that day. Not only was there Mike Willesee and myself, but Greg Barbara, (an Australian 60 Minutes cameraman), his sound recorder, Ralph Steele, Neuropsychophysiologist, Dr Ricardo Castanon, and other people.

Since the broadcast of the Fox program, there have been some journalists and critics who have gone to print to publish what they suggest was the case, namely that Katya inflicted those wounds on herself, or they were inflicted on her by someone else and that Mike Willesee had been duped by some clever fraud to think otherwise.

It is interesting that not one of those journalists or critics has asked to see the raw footage of what was professionally filmed of what actually happened. Nor have they sought to speak to or interview any of the 9 witnesses who saw what happened.

Also what these critics have conveniently failed to consider, is that if they believe Katya or someone else somehow inflicted these severe wounds on her without the camera or the witnesses noticing, how did she make those wounds heal completely overnight as they did?

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Article:

She has already been caught plagiarizing the work of José Prado Flores and Salvador Gómez of Guadalajara, Mexico. Her messages from God [sic] published in 1996 as “Renovacion Evangelica” (Evangelical Revival) bear a remarkable resemblance to Formacion de Predicadores (Training Preachers) published several years before she got them from “god.” The work of Prado Flores and Gómez was actually written many years before Rivas claimed to have gotten remarkably similar and often identical messages from god. According to Prado Flores, he and Gómez prepared the first version of their work in 1980, gave it as a workshop in 1982 and published it in 1988 [ISBN 83-7224-026-4]. Their work has been translated into Portuguese (1990), Italian (1992) and Polish (1999). Formacion de Predicadores has been published in later editions with different ISBNs: 03-2001-0612 and 10-4933-00-01. I have the 1992 edition published by Kerygma.

José Prado Flores is a respected Mexican author of Catholic books. He has numerous publications to his credit. Salvador Gómez is the author of Para Un Matrimonio Feliz (For a Happy Marriage). Prado Flores has written to me that Rivas has even kept his Mexican examples in her work, which, he says, would only be understood by Mexican readers. Also, in one of her books Rivas claims that Jesus warns us against listening to the authors of books!

Jesus to Catalina:

I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

**Beloved flower of My Passion, contemplate from this place, the tide of turbulent waves of distrust and envy, brought on by the aversion to My Works.

1. They complain because they find the same concepts in works written at different times and by persons who cannot possibly have anything in common… But they pay no attention to the context and they do not take the trouble to make an in depth study.**

Extract from the book 'Reason to Believe' by Ron Tesorerio (One of the Stigmata witnesses):

To the question that might be asked, “How can we know that the words Katya writes are from God”, Jesus answers with these words:-

**2) It is an unfathomable mystery that I may want to manifest Myself through a creature to the man of today… How many human mysteries you come to know only from their fruits, from their effects! You do not doubt only because you see their effects and not the causes. Well, the mystery consists in that the effects are known and discerned as authentic by the guarantee demonstrated in the fact that they produce movement of souls towards Me.

1. My Words are the same. Moreover, I have been repeating them throughout the ages to dozens of children and there are still many who do not recognize Me, who analyze, who look for faults… How blind are they!**

The Gospel of Matthew 7:16:

16 You will know them by their fruits.

Article:

Rivas has not always been such a holy person. She was a “fallen-away Catholic”

St Faustina’s Diary

She said to me,* “Get it out of your head, Sister, that the Lord Jesus might be communing in such an intimate way with such a miserable bundle of imperfections as you! Bear in mind that it is only with holy souls that the Lord Jesus communes in this way!”* I acknowledged that she was right, because I am indeed a wretched person, but still I trust in God‟s mercy. When I met the Lord I humbled myself and said, “Jesus, it seems that You do not associate intimately with such wretched people as I.**” Be at peace, My daughter, it is precisely through such misery that I 63 want to show the power of My mercy. ** (Diary, 133)

June 29, 1935. When I talked to my spiritual director [Father Sopocko] about various things that the Lord was asking of me, I thought he would tell me that I was incapable of accomplishing all those things, and that the Lord Jesus did not use miserable souls like me for the works He wanted done. But I heard words [to the effect] that it was just such souls that God chooses most frequently to carry out His plans. (Diary, 436)

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Article:

in 1993 when she saw and heard Nancy Fowler in Bolivia. She even went to Conyers, Georgia, in the U.S. to see Fowler, a woman who claims the Virgin Mary appeared to her on the 13th of each month (à la Fatima) for several years. (For some reason, the visions have stopped and for various reasons Fowler has dissociated herself from the Conyers people.) It was in Conyers that Rivas claims to have had her first stigmatic experience. For a while Rivas was a Fowler follower, but she broke away and, as mentioned above, is now considered the spiritual mother of another religious movement. (Fowler has distanced herself from Rivas and a group who tried to publish some of Rivas’s “messages,” noting that Rivas claims to have been in Conyers when she received one of her messages but she could not have been there because of an airline strike.)*

I don’t know anything about what the article is talking about here, so I believe I am unable to help here.

The following is a preface to her writings.

INTRODUCTION

This booklet is part of a larger collection of books (see list on last page), dictated in large part by Jesus and the Virgin Mary to Catalina (Katya) Rivas. The books reflect traditional Catholic teaching and spirituality and are available at “www.LoveAndMercy.org” for reading and printing at no cost. People are encouraged to copy these texts without change and distribute them in support of the beloved Pope John Paul II’s call to a New Evangelization.

These books of “The Great Crusade” are part of a growing collection of now more than twelve publications in Spanish containing teachings that transmit the spirituality of the Apostolate of the New Evangelization (ANE), which is based upon the Sacred Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The books are progressively being translated into English and other languages. An Imprimatur or recommendation by Catholic Church authorities can the found at the beginning of each publication.

The ANE is a Catholic movement of lay people that arises as an answer to Pope John Paul II’s insistent call to those baptized to commit to the task of promoting the Good News that Christ has died and risen for our salvation from sin.

As Catholics that we are, we completely submit to the Teaching of the Church concerning “Private Revelations” as stated in Canons 66 and 67 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in English in 1994:

Canon 66: “The Christian economy, therefore, since it
is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass
away; and no new public revelation is to be expected
before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus
Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it
has not been made completely explicit; it remains for
Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance
over the course of the centuries.

Canon 67: Throughout the ages, there have been socalled
“private” revelations, some of which have been
recognized by the authority of the Church. They do
not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not
their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive
Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a
certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium
of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to
discern and welcome in these revelations whatever
constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to
the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim
to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is
the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian
religions and also in certain recent sects which base
themselves on such “revelations”.

If Jesus speaks to your heart as you read this book, please share these words with people who want to open their hearts to the call for a New Evangelization. Invoke the Holy Spirit so that It guides and grants you the gifts that you need for a good personal conversion and grants the same for those with whom you share this booklet.

Love and Mercy Publications
Christmas 2005

And -

Translated from the original Imprimatur in Spanish:

Archbishop of Cochabamba
Casilia 129
Cochabamba - Bolivia

IMPRIMATUR:

We have read Catalina’s books and we are sure that their only objective is to guide us all on a journey of authentic spirituality, founded on the Gospel of Christ. The books likewise highlight the special place occupied by the Blessed Virgin Mary, our role model in loving and following Jesus Christ, our Mother to whom we should offer our complete trust and love.

In renewing the love and devotion to the Holy Catholic Church, the books enlighten us on the actions that should characterize a truly committed Christian.

For all this, I authorize their edition and distribution, and recommend them as texts of meditation and spiritual orientation, with the purpose of answering Our Lord’s calling to save many souls, showing them that He is a living God, full of love and mercy.

• Mons. René Fernández Apaza
  Archbishop of Cochabamba
  April 2, l998

Also the following I believe may help - youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf

A person assisting in the translation of one of the books from Spanish to English, summarised the impact on him in these words, “This book is moving in the extreme, not because it contains some new or exciting revelation, on the contrary, but because it reveals the Gospel we thought we knew in a manner so fresh, so immediate, so tangible, so real that we are -unless our hearts are made of stone - profoundly touched and thankful that at the same time Our Lord who is life itself, has been so kind to see fit to approach us again, in this way, through this sweet and humble woman in Cochabamba.”

I hope this has helped, please feel free to reply/refute anything.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh