Understanding quantum physics in light of a Catholic informed conscience

[without]

There is nothing “magical” about God. He is supernatural. That means above nature. That means that we have no way to measure something above that which exists in our natural world.

The problem I stated asks what is the mechanism for something supernatural to have an effect on the natural. If there is something making changes in nature (like a miracle cure to a single persons cancer) we would be able to see that action. Any claim that the supernatural can influence or change something in nature must be backed up by the observable and measurable change in nature that was caused the the supernatural. Any change in nature by a force outside of the laws of nature would be easily to measure.

Tell me. How does science measure the love of a mother or father for their children? Can you tell me that it does not exist?

Oxytocin: youramazingbrain.org/lovesex/sciencelove.htm

What about a force that is not of nature; a force that created nature itself? How do you measure that force?

A force not of nature is magic and can not, by definition, be measured because it can not interact with nature. That is the point… things “not of nature” can not touch, change or create natural things because things “not of nature” does has not ability (mechanism) to do so. If they did we could see the effect, measure and even study it.

 

[TEPO]

You will have to do a lot of studying. Very few really understand either - though many say they do. You certainly aren’t going to learn it on Youtube.

Linus2nd

I think the basis of quantum physics deals with the relationship between matter and force and the ratios of either in respect to the other.

…for example, are the suns rays mostly energy with bits of matter or pure energy? Likewise, is an atom mostly matter with bits of energy or pure matter. Thats what Ive gathered, though im sure there is tons more.

In any case i think energy or ‘forces’ are much more prevalent than we would like to think… Because we dont like what we cant detect or control.

 

[SteveVH]

The problem I stated asks what is the mechanism for something supernatural to have an effect on the natural. If there is something making changes in nature (like a miracle cure to a single persons cancer) we would be able to see that action. Any claim that the supernatural can influence or change something in nature must be backed up by the observable and measurable change in nature that was caused the the supernatural. Any change in nature by a force outside of the laws of nature would be easily to measure.

The cause is the will of God who does not need a mechanism to have an effect. He speaks and it is done.

For example, the case of Gemma De Giorgi of Ribera, Sicily who was born in 1939 without pupils and therefore blind from birth.

After prayers from her mother to Padre Pio (while he was still living) she was given her sight in 1947. Only problem for science is that her eyes are still without pupils. She has undergone countless eye exams from ophthalmologists and oculists, all who agree that by the very laws of nature, sight for her is impossible, yet she sees. So I guess you might say that one could measure the supernatural influence on the natural in that she sees when she has no natural ability to see.

Oxytocin: youramazingbrain.org/lovesex/sciencelove.htm

Which is why I specifically used the example of parents loving their children and not people who are feeling their sexual hormones. This does not address my question.

A force not of nature is magic and can not, by definition, be measured because it can not interact with nature. That is the point… things “not of nature” can not touch, change or create natural things because things “not of nature” does has not ability (mechanism) to do so. If they did we could see the effect, measure and even study it.

Well, I simply do not agree with your definition. Magic is the attempt by a human being to manipulate the laws of nature. It takes God out of the equation. God does not use magic. He does not manipulate nature. He is the author of nature and is above nature. Thus a little girl without pupils can see. We can “measure” her ability to see without the physical mechanism that allows one to see. That is the supernatural entering into and touching the natural.

 

[Exiled_Child]

Also, if there is no “force” that holds atoms together, then why do we see nuclear fission radiate out from atoms when theyre split open -as if theyre under pressure and need to be contained. So theres energy that contains and there’s energy wanting to radiate… Two opposing forces working together to maintain balance.

…so what is this energy exactly that radiates -this fission? What effect does this released energy have on its surroundings? It ‘changes’ everything it comes in contact with. Its ‘progressive’ and chain-reactive.

…what is this energy exactly that contains the radiating fission? Its order. It holds. It keeps things the same. Its ‘tradition’.

Here we find the two main forces that are magnified in the human being… Our own internal and external state of being. Our own progressive and traditional dilemmas. We see it individually and as societies as a whole. Its ‘change’ or ‘stay the same’.

Howdy TEPO, I am very much enjoying this thread! I just thought I would post a quotation from Teilhard de Chardin’s The Phenomenon of Man because it touches upon what you’re saying, and also because his scientific, mystical, Roman Catholic perspective is profound and fascinating. I guess I may as well post the Wikipedia entry on him, too, just in case anyone feels like reading it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin

 "Under this name, which conveys the experience of effort with which we are familiar in ourselves, physics has introduced the precise formulation of a capacity for action or, more exactly, for interaction. Energy is the measure of that which passes from one atom to another in the course of their transformations. A unifying power, then, but also, because the atom appears to become enriched or exhausted in the course of the exchange, the expression of structure. 

 From the aspect of energy, renewed by radio-active phenomena, material corpuscles may now be treated as transient reservoirs of concentrated power. Though never found in a state of purity, but always more or less granulated (even in light) energy nowadays represents for science the most primitive form of universal stuff. Hence we find our minds instinctively tending to represent energy as a kind of homogeneous, primordial flux in which all that has shape in the world is but a series of fleeting ' vortices '. From this point of view, the universe would find its stability and final unity *at the end of its decomposition. It would be held together from below.*

 Let us keep the discoveries and indisputable measurements of physics. But let us not become bound and fettered to the perspective of final equilibrium that they seem to suggest. A more complete study of the movements of the world will oblige us, little by little, to turn it upside down; in other words, to discover that if things hold and hold together, it is only by reason of complexity, *from above."*

 

[without]

The cause is the will of God who does not need a mechanism to have an effect. He speaks and it is done.

Mkay

For example, the case of Gemma De Giorgi of Ribera, Sicily who was born in 1939 without pupils and therefore blind from birth.

After prayers from her mother to Padre Pio (while he was still living) she was given her sight in 1947. Only problem for science is that her eyes are still without pupils. She has undergone countless eye exams from ophthalmologists and oculists, all who agree that by the very laws of nature, sight for her is impossible, yet she sees. So I guess you might say that one could measure the supernatural influence on the natural in that she sees when she has no natural ability to see.

She had a genetic disease called Aniridia (no iris). Most people with this defect can see but their eyes look black (I have included pictures of both Gemma and a modern case) - not impressed by the story. visionfortomorrow.org/aniridia/

Which is why I specifically used the example of parents loving their children and not people who are feeling their sexual hormones. This does not address my question.

You need to actually read the link… "Oxytocin also seems to help cement the strong bond between mum and baby and is released during childbirth. It is also responsible for a mum’s breast automatically releasing milk at the mere sight or sound of her young baby.

Diane Witt, assistant professor of psychology from New York has showed that if you block the natural release of oxytocin in sheep and rats, they reject their own young.

Conversely, injecting oxytocin into female rats who’ve never had sex, caused them to fawn over another female’s young, nuzzling the pups and protecting them as if they were their own.

Well, I simply do not agree with your definition. Magic is the attempt by a human being to manipulate the laws of nature. It takes God out of the equation. God does not use magic. He does not manipulate nature. He is the author of nature and is above nature. Thus a little girl without pupils can see. We can “measure” her ability to see without the physical mechanism that allows one to see. That is the supernatural entering into and touching the natural.

1- oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/magic “The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces” but you can use your definition if you want…

2- “God does not use magic. He does not manipulate nature.” then (back to my original point) what is the mechanism by witch the supernatural can manipulate nature? If god does not change nature then god can not perform miracles, right?

 

[SteveVH]

She had a genetic disease called Aniridia (no iris). Most people with this defect can see but their eyes look black (I have included pictures of both Gemma and a modern case) - not impressed by the story. visionfortomorrow.org/aniridia/

Please give me your source by which you have determined that Gemma had pupils and instead was missing only her iris? I didn’t expect you to be impressed by a story that still has doctors puzzled. Too bad they didn’t consult you. For those who do not believe no proof will suffice.

 

[Exiled_Child]

To me, it seems that the understanding of quantum physics is the biggest mystery of life. Max Plank sums it up in light of religion as such: “As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter” in 1944.[24]

Let us reflect on this for a minute… There appears to be a “force” that holds all matter together. This “force” would be viewed as God by religious people… So what do the non-religious view this force as?

(Please, no evolution or athiesm remarks allowed. Thanks.)

I just wanted to say again that I really, really love that quote. And de Chardin expands on the idea in such a beautifully poetic way when he talks about the Big Bang as “the idea of a universe which for the last few thousand million years has been expanding in galaxies from a sort of primordial atom.” The ideas and imagery you’ve put forward in this thread resonate strongly with me.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Please give me your source by which you have determined that Gemma had pupils and instead was missing only her iris? I didn’t expect you to be impressed by a story that still has doctors puzzled. Too bad they didn’t consult you. For those who do not believe no proof will suffice.

Still waiting …

 

[Jerurussia]

The “religion” of Anti-Christ is given in Daniel as worshiping a god his forefathers never knew, the god of force; and reinforcing the force with another force god. So as delicious as parallels discovered in science, like light theory with God the Father Light, God the Son Particle, and God the Holy Spirit Wave, God is not a force of nature.

May I note that the channeled spirit, Ramtha, urged followers (like Shirley MacLaine) to do “any despicable thing” as expressing one’s self?

Good science is good religion and I hope and trust that God’s prophetic revelations that transcend time and space will be noted as evidence of the divine, especially as including a Tesla-like Earth splitting per Isaiah and John’s Apocalypse.

 

[SteveVH]

Still waiting …

Yeah, me too. Gemma is still living, I believe. It isn’t like this is some undocumented pious story from the past that cannot be proven today.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

To me, it seems that the understanding of quantum physics is the biggest mystery of life. Max Plank sums it up in light of religion as such: “As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter” in 1944.[24]

Let us reflect on this for a minute… There appears to be a “force” that holds all matter together. This “force” would be viewed as God by religious people… So what do the non-religious view this force as?

(Please, no evolution or athiesm remarks allowed. Thanks.)

Are you talking about the theory that the Quantum Vacuum dsplays a consciousness

 

[PaulDupre1]

Let us reflect on this for a minute… There appears to be a “force” that holds all matter together. This “force” would be viewed as God by religious people…

Indeed, at least by Christians:

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

• Colosians 1:17

Paul

 

[SteveVH]

Please give me your source by which you have determined that Gemma had pupils and instead was missing only her iris?

Still waiting…

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

I think the basis of quantum physics deals with the relationship between matter and force and the ratios of either in respect to the other.

…for example, are the suns rays mostly energy with bits of matter or pure energy? Likewise, is an atom mostly matter with bits of energy or pure matter. Thats what Ive gathered, though im sure there is tons more.

In any case i think energy or ‘forces’ are much more prevalent than we would like to think… Because we dont like what we cant detect or control.

I was under the impression that in quantum physics the relationship was between Waves and Particles (The Quantum Vacuum), Time and Space. Everything in the know universe is a product of this interaction and that the interaction is on going, continually dynamic, always evolving never at rest and most interesting of all displays an ordered form.
The exact same physics which describes and exists to give humane beings consciousness also exists in the quantum vacuum, there for we must assume that the vacuum itself has consciousness ( is aware of its existence ). Is this the mind of God?

 

[andrewstx]

I would be the first to admit that Quantum Physics is way beyond my mental abilities, especially since I had a stroke.

But I knew a retired Priest who was very ‘into’ QP. He has departed over 10 years ago.

But he was certainly not orthodox in his faith, I think in fact that may be one of the reasons for his retirement. Most priests do not get to retire now days.

 

[Tomdstone]

To me, it seems that the understanding of quantum physics is the biggest mystery of life.

Are you speaking of quantum mechanics or of quantum field theory? Quantum mechanics is not mysterious but differs from classical mechanics inasmuch as given an initial status, the data at a future time may be predicted only with a certain probability and the accuracy of the prediction is limited. This is done by means of a general theory of unbounded self adjoint operators on a separable Hilbert space. Quantum field theory is perhaps best understood by the method of Feynmann path integrals.
There are physicists of many religious backgrounds and atheists who have contributed to the theory,