Understanding Salvation and Purgatory

[luciasclay]

I am attempting to fully understand Catholic teaching on this subject. I have put together the following statement which is how I presently understand.

*We must be fully pure of sin in order to stand before the Holy God, desribed as a unapproachable light, a cleansing fire, etc.

Those who die in a state of grace but are not fully purified ( most of us are not pure at death ) must go through a process of attaining perfection, we must be fully sanctified.

Our soul suffers, just as we do in the present life, in order to purify us.

God, the consuming fire in front of which no sin can stand, has in his mercy withdrawn and veiled himself from the current world, so that we may find salvation and return to full communion with him. After death we continue to move into fuller and fuller communion with him, enduring purification until we finally are able to stand before him as perfect souls.

As this process is only for those who die in a state of grace, not those who have rejected salvation, thus it is that salvation is only by the grace of God. We do not attain salvation by our merits or deeds however our deeds and suffering serve to complete our union into full communion with God. Thus salvation is not by works alone, or faith alone, but by faith as expressed in works and works as they express faith.*

Will the Catholics here please tell me if I am expressing the concept of purgatory and salvation correctly. Is anything I have said here not correct ?

If you don’t agree with the doctrine of purgatory thanks but please let me learn what Catholics teach not what non-Catholics teach.

Thanks.

 

[davidv]

I am attempting to fully understand Catholic teaching on this subject. I have put together the following statement which is how I presently understand.

We must be fully pure of sin in order to stand before the Holy God, desribed as a unapproachable light, a cleansing fire, etc.

Those who die in a state of grace but are not fully purified ( most of us are not pure at death ) must go through a process of attaining perfection, we must be fully sanctified.

Our soul suffers, just as we do in the present life, in order to purify us.

God, the consuming fire in front of which no sin can stand, has in his mercy withdrawn and veiled himself from the current world, so that we may find salvation and return to full communion with him. After death we continue to move into fuller and fuller communion with him, enduring purification until we finally are able to stand before him as perfect souls.

*As this process is only for those who die in a state of grace, not those who have rejected salvation, thus it is that salvation is only by the grace of God. We do not attain salvation by our merits or deeds however our deeds and suffering serve to complete our union into full communion with God. Thus salvation is not by works alone, or faith alone, but by faith as expressed in works and works as they express faith.*Will the Catholics here please tell me if I am expressing the concept of purgatory and salvation correctly. Is anything I have said here not correct ?

If you don’t agree with the doctrine of purgatory thanks but please let me learn what Catholics teach not what non-Catholics teach.

Thanks.

I cannot see anything that I would call incorrect.

Was there a particular part of this explanation that you were not sure of?

 

[VociMike]

The only thing that sounds just a bit off (IMO) is where you say that our soul suffers in order to purify us. I would say, rather, that our purification can result in suffering because we are still attached to the sin that is being purified. In the same way, we would not say that the surgeon causes us pain in order to heal us, but rather that the process of healing can result in pain. The analogy is not perfect, but perhaps good enough to get my point across.

But this comes close to quibbling. I certainly think you’ve got a firm understanding of the concept.

 

[promethius]

Will the Catholics here please tell me if I am expressing the concept of purgatory and salvation correctly. Is anything I have said here not correct ?

i would say there is one error and one clarification to be made:

The Error:
Catholics do not believe we are saved by faith expressed by works, or vice versa. Nothing we can do can ultimately balance out “the scale of justice” for the sin we have done. Ergo, we are saved solely by Grace. Faith opens us up to receive grace, but faith is made living by the good and Godly works we were created and ordained to do. The catholic church is a “sola Venia” church: the idea that we, the unworthy sinners, are called by God and saved only by His mercy.

The clarification:
You’ve somewhat hit on it here, but I’d like to clarify. The catechism does not call purgatory a place. Conversely, purgatory is described as a PROCESS. We don’t know the exact method of purgation used, or if time ACTUALLY passes at all in the purgation process. We know it’s not an easy process, as it is penance for any remaining sin we have, and penance is a cleansing act. When we refer to “time spent in purgatory” it is understood that the “time” referred to is a certain amount of temporal punishment which would be ascribed if our earthly acts could somehow justify us against our sin. That does not imply that actual time passes in purgation. As you’ve already noted, purgation occurs AFTER final judgement. That is, only the saved will enter into the process and from purgation they can only go forward in righteousness. Purgation is not a “second chance”, but rather a form of cleansing after being welcomed to eventual entrance into God’s presense.

Other than those things, I’d say your description is spot on

 

[luciasclay]

I cannot see anything that I would call incorrect.

Was there a particular part of this explanation that you were not sure of?

I have explored east and west, and am coming from a protestant background.

I find Catholic discussion tends to focus on the type of sin, quantity of sin, and the punishment for the sin, and tends not to focus on why the suffering happens, the process of purification, rather it tends to be mostly focused on punishment itself. Almost punitive. It seems heavily based on the concept of a legal standing not so much the purpose of the punishment and the goal of God.

I recently found some quotes from Pope Benedict that I found very reasurring as he was, in those particular writings, talking about things more the way I have come to understand.

When I view purgatory as the process of entering fully into communion with God, coming closer and closer to Him, it seems a wonderful blessed process. When I view it as after you die you will be punished more its something that many dig in and ultimately misunderstand God and claim that he is not loving.

My main purpose here was to see if my way of understanding, including the process of entering into full communion with God and such was Catholic or if I was relying to much on Eastern Orthodox teaching and to guage the difference between what I wrote and what the west teaches.

I’m encouraged to hear that I am at least in the ballpark on my understanding.

 

[luciasclay]

iThe Error:
Catholics do not believe we are saved by faith expressed by works, or vice versa. Nothing we can do can ultimately balance out “the scale of justice” for the sin we have done. Ergo, we are saved solely by Grace. Faith opens us up to receive grace, but faith is made living by the good and Godly works we were created and ordained to do. The catholic church is a “sola Venia” church: the idea that we, the unworthy sinners, are called by God and saved only by His mercy.

What you have said above is, I believe, the same thing I attempted to say, even if it was not in fact what I actually said

Thanks!

 

[davidv]

I have explored east and west, and am coming from a protestant background.

I find Catholic discussion tends to focus on the type of sin, quantity of sin, and the punishment for the sin, and tends not to focus on why the suffering happens, the process of purification, rather it tends to be mostly focused on punishment itself. Almost punitive. It seems heavily based on the concept of a legal standing not so much the purpose of the punishment and the goal of God.

I recently found some quotes from Pope Benedict that I found very reasurring as he was, in those particular writings, talking about things more the way I have come to understand.

When I view purgatory as the process of entering fully into communion with God, coming closer and closer to Him, it seems a wonderful blessed process. When I view it as after you die you will be punished more its something that many dig in and ultimately misunderstand God and claim that he is not loving.

My main purpose here was to see if my way of understanding, including the process of entering into full communion with God and such was Catholic or if I was relying to much on Eastern Orthodox teaching and to guage the difference between what I wrote and what the west teaches.

I’m encouraged to hear that I am at least in the ballpark on my understanding.

I’m not sure where your getting the focus on punishment from. I’ve been Catholic all my life, and the punishment aspect was never any kind of focus. It certainly can be considered that, as long as one also defines restitution as punishment. But, in todays language those two things have different connotations.

[Edit] I consider purgatory more in line with restitution than punishment.

 

[VociMike]

I have explored east and west, and am coming from a protestant background.

I find Catholic discussion tends to focus on the type of sin, quantity of sin, and the punishment for the sin, and tends not to focus on why the suffering happens, the process of purification, rather it tends to be mostly focused on punishment itself. Almost punitive. It seems heavily based on the concept of a legal standing not so much the purpose of the punishment and the goal of God.

I think you may find that what you describe is really just an American “dialect” of Catholicism, influenced by both the Puritanical underpinnings of the Republic, and by the brand of Irish Catholicism that was so influential here over the past two centuries. I think the Church in America may very well have gone overboard in the direction you speak of, and also may very well have had an over-reaction in the opposite direction in the past decades.

When people want to talk about the punitive aspect of purgatory over the purifying aspect, I find it useful to ask what, in God’s view, is the difference? Surely any “punishment” inflicted by God on those who are saved has as its goal only the full purification of the individual. Unlike humans, God’s “punishment” is always directed to the good of the individual. So in that case, I consider the concept of God’s punishment exactly the same as that of God’s purification. Maybe you’ll find that a useful way to look at the matter.

 

[luciasclay]

@DavidV

Where I get my information ? Good question. Thanks for your personal observation.

@Vocimike

I agree its the same in the end. In my personal experience its easier to speak of it though to others who its still new to (myself included) in one way than the other.

As to whether its an American dialect I’ll take your word for it, and that is an interesting idea which I will ponder.

 

[AndyF]

luciasclay:

withdrawn and veiled himself from the current world,

That’s pretty good.

Just one note…

Jesus said, “I am with you always”. In the current world through the Eucharist he works to strengthen us in our struggles. In the current world he takes the time to hear a contrite heart and is ready to absolve him through Penance. The graces we have available through the Sacraments and provided by the Church are proof of his working with us day by day in this world to lessen our stay in purgatory.

Andy