Understanding the Catholic doctrine of justification

[Gorgias]

And finally…
jan10000:

• If you are aware of the Gospel but don’t get baptized, you do not go to Heaven. In this day and age of information, I would think the number of people who have not heard the Gospel is very low.

Nope. The standard isn’t “have you heard the Gospel” or even “are you aware that the Gospels exist.” The standard is, “if you’ve heard them, and agree that they’re true, but refuse to enter or remain in the Church.”

You’ve got some serious misconceptions of Church teaching. I’m glad you’re here at CAF; I’m hoping you’ll learn what the Church really teaches!

 

[Zach]

I don’t think I’d say “you lose faith”, but instead “you lose sanctifying grace

Yes but is not that grace necessary for faith or in other words it is only by God’s grace we can have faith. That’s why I asked that If we sin mortally and lose grace until we Confess is it possible to still have faith before Confessing and being brought back into God’s grace?

 

[Gorgias]

Yes but is not that grace necessary for faith or in other words it is only by God’s grace we can have faith.

If sanctifying grace is necessary for faith, and sanctifying grace is what we receive in baptism, then how could we have had faith to ask for baptism?

Yes, we need God’s grace. Yes, being “in a state of grace” is what’s restored in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. No, faith is not necessarily lost when one is in mortal sin (or else no one would ever approach Reconciliation in the first place, right?)…

So: yes, you still have faith, even if you’ve sinned.

 

[CRV]

Ok, I didn’t see it in that light on the first reading. But just now having gone back and re-read it, what also comes to my mind is that at the time of death (as you say), and it is then that there is no more inclination to sin simply because we can’t sin (nor can we gain merit).

It is ‘fixed’ at the instant of death - so his "Isn’t that impossible until we receive our new bodies" - isn’t correct. Regardless of where a soul goes after death, a soul cannot sin anymore - and we sin due to this inclination to sin.

Whether one is in purgatory making satisfaction due to sin that may remain, or in heaven where the soul being perfectly holy is with God, or in hell - imo, there is no inclination to sin - for all these souls right up to the Last Day when all will be reunited to their bodies.

I don’t think whether we are in this temporal body or a glorified body is the determining factor as to whether one is inclined to sin or not. I think this ceases at death as you also say.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

This does not jive with a merciful God. I wonder how many Catholics actually believe this? My religion teacher (Catholic School), for example, said the above was not true. He claimed that baptism was not necessary and a soul was judged by its deeds not rituals. If a Catholic school teacher would say that, how seriously do Catholics in general follow such harsh doctrines?

There’s not much reason to care about what this individual has to say.

 

[CRV]

I notice on their profile they say they are a “cultural catholic” … perhaps that explains their position…

Who are 'cultural Catholics'? | Pew Research Center

 

[Gorgias]

jan10000:

This does not jive with a merciful God. I wonder how many Catholics actually believe this? My religion teacher (Catholic School), for example, said the above was not true. He claimed that baptism was not necessary and a soul was judged by its deeds not rituals. If a Catholic school teacher would say that, how seriously do Catholics in general follow such harsh doctrines?

There’s not much reason to care about what this individual has to say.

Right – if @jan10000 heard her religion teacher correctly (and didn’t mistake what he was saying), then he was teaching things that are in conflict with what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Yes that is my point. I am saying that if someone who has been approved as a religious education teaching in a Catholic school denies the requirement of baptism to go to Heaven (participate in the beatific vision), then what percentage of Catholics actually believe it.

Practicing Catholics are not affected by what the dissenting members believe or do.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

If you want statistics, Google will be more reliable than posters on CAF as well as more accessible.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

That there are a lot of dissenting Catholics isn’t new information nor does it change anything.

 

[Todd_Easton]

I’m all for official clarification. Please explain which one of my conclusions is incorrect.

I think Gorgias, in posts 21and 22 in this topic, did a good job explaining why each of your four conclusions is not correct, a better job than I could ever do.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes that is my point. I am saying that if someone who has been approved as a religious education teaching in a Catholic school denies the requirement of baptism to go to Heaven (participate in the beatific vision), then what percentage of Catholics actually believe it.

Yep. I whole-heartedly agree. Our religious education system – “Sunday School”, if you will – is profoundly broken in certain ways. We do such a poor job of communicating our faith to our young people that it borders on the obscene.

So, the question of whether Catholics believe or even know their faith is a complicated one, and one that reflects poorly on us.

For example, I have studied Catholic doctrine, attended Catholic school, attended Church as a child, but now that I have experienced and studied the issues, I disagree with Catholic teaching.

So, here’s the thing: based on what you’ve written in various threads on CAF, you actually don’t know Catholic doctrine. (Sorry if that’s a bit harsh, but it’s true.) You’ve mischaracterized a number of doctrines and seem unwilling to budge from your misunderstandings, even when the teachings of the Church have been quoted to you.

So, that nuances the question you ask…

I disagree with Catholic teaching.
I live my life according to my moral framework, which I feel is far superior to the Catholic framework.

Do I still go to Heaven?

My understanding is that those who reject the teachings of the Church are responsible for their actions. To be honest, you aren’t rejecting the teachings of the Church – you’re rejecting something that isn’t the Church. So… there’s still hope.

I personally don’t think what you’ve said above is Church teaching. I could be wrong - please show me.

Certainly! In post 20, I quoted part of Lumen gentium to you. Here’s additional context from paragraph 14:

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

So… if you truly know Catholic teaching and reject it, then that’s problematic (with respect to your salvation). But, if you reject something that’s not what the Church teaches (as Venerable Fulton Sheen once said, “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be”), then there’s still the opportunity to learn what the Church really teaches, and to accept it as true. It’s only once you’ve accepted it as the truth that you’re bound to follow your conscience into the Church.

 

[Gorgias]

For example, your statement immediately invalidates Pascal’s Wager, which has been used by Christians for centuries.

Pascal’s Wager isn’t doctrine! Besides which, it addresses a completely different topic: it asks “if you do not believe, but wish to, what should you do?”

You are implying the denial of Pascal’s Wager is inherent in Church teaching - are you sure you want to do that?

I disagree that I’m denying it. But, if I were… then yes! I’m sure I want to do that!

What percentage of those that say they are Catholic fully believe that baptism is an absolute requirement to enter heaven (other than the rare exceptions - baptism by blood, etc)?

Hopefully very few, because that’s not what the Church teaches. For those who know it’s necessary, it’s necessary, but that doesn’t mean that someone who grew up and never heard the Gospel needs baptism for salvation. (Again, please read Lumen gentium, paragraphs 14-16.)

The point I was making is that if even my religion teacher at a Catholic school disputes this tenant

Now I’m confused. Was your teacher saying that baptism isn’t required for Catholics, or that baptism isn’t required without exceptions? I’m starting to get the idea that you misunderstood your teacher, or that she didn’t present the teaching clearly enough.

My High School girlfriend, for instance, a very devout Catholic, refused to believe animals did not have souls and did not go to heaven.

We’ve been around this one: animals do have souls, but not eternal souls. Animals may be present in the “new heavens and new earth”; we’re not told which ones, though.

 

[Gorgias]

Specifically, please explain how my conclusion that approximately 7 of 8 souls created by God are bound for Hell is incorrect given the REQUIREMENT of baptism.

Post 20, Jan. Asked and answered.

 

[CRV]

Sorry, but am out of likes … … otherwise I’d like your last 3 replies.

There was something about a decade ago a priest once said to me, when I was grappling with (can’t remember now), but he told me “Don’t put God in a box.”

 

[Gorgias]

My teacher said, specifically, that “good” Muslims, “good” Jews, “good” atheists, “Good” Buddhists, and so on and so forth all enter heaven (and participate in the beatific vision).

She’s correct – that is possible, according to Catholic teaching.

In other words, the requirement for entering heaven is deeds, not words. Baptism is not required. Being a Christian is not required. But being a “good” person is required. I think most Catholics feel this way, no?

No. You’re misstating the doctrine. The Catechism and Lumen gentium have been quoted to you. Please read them. Please come with questions after you’ve read them. Please stop making assertions that are untrue and claiming that they represent Church teaching. Please.

My point is that if even a Catholic religion school teacher believes this, how many Catholics actually believe the doctrine. Or was he right?

What you said he taught is part of the doctrine. In that part of it, he’s accurate. However, it doesn’t represent the entirety of the doctrine. (And, if you attempt to say that it is the entirety, you end up with the “all it takes is to be a good person” notion, which is untrue.)

How many Catholics believe that non-Catholics have the possibility of going to heaven? I dunno… pretty much everybody here who has posted has seemed to agree with the Church’s teaching! That’s a skewed population, to be sure, but maybe you can ask some Catholics you know. It would be very easy: “excuse me, Tom: does the Catholic Church teach that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, even atheists have the possibility to go to heaven, or does it teach that there are only Catholics in heaven?”

 

[Todd_Easton]

Concerning the salvation of non-Catholics, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 (source)

 

[Gorgias]

The doctrine says that Baptism IS a requirement.

Not for all persons. If you think it does, please show it to me (and I’ll show you that it demonstrates that there are other means of salvation for certain persons).

Where does the Catechism say that people who do not believe baptism is required get to go to heaven?

In paragraphs 1259 and 1260, we encounter two such examples:

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.

If you can honestly convince me that every good person on this planet goes to heaven, regardless of their beliefs (atheists, Muslims, and so forth) I am all for it.

Depends on what you mean by “good person”. The Church doesn’t teach that just being a “good person” is sufficient, although it does talk about those who “seek the truth” and “do the will of God in accordance of his understanding of it”. Pretty substantial distinction, wouldn’t you say?

But…and I’m being serious here - why should anyone be a Catholic at all then?

Because the Catholic faith offers a certainty; for others, it does not. If you follow the Catholic faith and die in a state of grace, you will attain to heaven. In the other case, read the catechism and Lumen gentium carefully: they only say that such people “can be saved”. No guarantees.

They can just do whatever they want and still go to heaven.

That’s precisely the opposite of what I’m saying (and what the Church teaches). It’s definitely not “do what you want and you’ll land in heaven.”

For example, of a gay person honestly believes being gay is not wrong and acts accordingly, you are saying they still go to heaven?

It depends on whether they’re culpable for that mistaken belief. (p.s., it’s not “wrong” to be gay – that is, to have a homosexual orientation; it’s sinful to commit homosexual acts. Big difference.)

the key question is that if everyone goes to heaven regardless of being baptized

That’s not at all what’s being said here. Hopefully, having read my posts here, you realize that.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Consider two “good” individuals that live identical lives in terms of their actions and even thoughts (ie, though shall not covet…).

If the ONLY difference is one is baptized a Christian and the other a Jew (or Muslim or Atheist), does the latter go to Heaven or Hell?

It depends on how “good” they are.

Consider these following scenarios. . .

Scenario 1: There are two “good” people, one is a baptized Catholic and the other, through no fault of their own, is a non-Catholic believer. Both persevere in perfect charity and in perfect contrition for their sins. In this case, they both go to heaven. In this idealistic scenario, the baptized Catholic has no advantage over the invincibly-ignorant, non-Catholic believer.

Scenario 2: As before, there are “good” two people, one is a baptized Catholic and the other, through no fault of their own, is a non-Catholic believer. They both start well; the non-Catholic believer manages to manifest perfect love and perfect contrition for his past sins and receives “baptism by implicit desire” but this time, instead of persevering in perfect charity and perfect contrition, their charity cools and they both commit a single mortal sin and afterwards they can only manifest imperfect contrition for their sin. The Catholic goes to the sacrament of confession and, even though he can only manifest imperfect contrition, his mortal sin is forgiven and he goes to heaven; the non-Catholic, because the sacrament of confession is not available to him and he can only manifest imperfect contrition for his mortal sin, he is not forgiven and he goes to hell. In this more realistic scenario, because of the heavenly gifts and helps available to Catholics in the Catholic Church, such as the sacrament of confession, generally-speaking, a Catholic is more likely to go to heaven than a invincibly-ignorant, non-Catholic believer.

Since, without faith it is impossible to please God, I am not sure how things work with someone who is an atheist.

Footnote 337 at the end of paragraph 847 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, mentioned in my earlier post, directs the reader to two references, one being DS 3866-3872, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s, Letter to the Archbishop of Boston, 1949. It might be worth your time to read the DS 3866-3872 letter. This letter is available online but it is a little hard to get to: If you go to the Knights of Columbus Catechism website and enter 847 in the search box at the upper left of the page, paragraph 847 of the Catechism should appear on the right side of the screen. If you click on the footnote 337 link at the end of the paragraph, it should take you to a page that lists another reference (LG 16) and DS 3866-3872. If you then click on View Referenced Text link below the listing, it should take you to a page containing the full text of the other reference and the DS 3866-3872 letter.

 

[catholic03]

The key doctrine is salvation by faith AND good works .

I have always understood this to be a good explanation:

Unbaptised persons who have committed no sins of their own (infants) may go to limbo, where they will experience happiness but not bear witness to the beatific vision (when a human attains perfect happiness in heaven - the ‘final end’ of the human person as St Thomas Aquinas said). Nonetheless, the Church hopes such souls will go to heaven.

Those who are baptised are washed of sin and are saved. BUT, as soon as they commit a mortal sin they are condemned to everlasting fire. If they repent through an act of perfect contrition (which implies going to confession as soon as possible) or through the ordinary mean of confessing to a priest, then they will be forgiven of their sins and are saved.

Nonetheless, one can never be sure of his salvation.

Venial sins do not condemn one to everlasting fire but accumulate time in purgatory.

Please correct me if I am wrong.