Understanding the Trinity

[Andrew2009]

There’s something about the Trinity that really puzzles me.

God consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As God is eternal and unchanging, he has always consisted of Father, Son and Holy Spirit (I presume).

The Son is Jesus Christ, who came into the world to redeem man from sin.

So - what was “the Son” before the world and mankind was created? What would “the Son” be if God had decided not to create the world and mankind? We know “the Son” as Jesus Christ because he was sent into the world to redeem man from sin - so what was “the Son” before he actually became the literal, human son of God 2000 years ago on earth?

I hope this question makes sense. If anyone can help with any information / explanation on this I would be grateful.

 

[Cathryn]

The Son is the Word of God. All things were made by him. He always was and always will be.

John 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, always existed. He is co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. All of creation is made through the Son, and for the Son, by the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit. Some of the saints said that the Son is God’s communion outside of Himself to creation (ad extra.) That is why John calls the Son the “Word” of God. The Son is also called the Wisdom of God, and the Splendor of the Father (at the Kyrie) It was this Son, that was made Incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ, and dwelt among us!

 

[chaunceygardner]

The Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, always existed. He is co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

If God the father and the Second Person of the Trinity always existed (and, I am assuming, the Third Person, the Holy Spirit) aren’t Christians saying there are three Gods? This has always puzzled me. If Jesus was the “Son of God” or the “Second Person” that implies two distinct beings. Wouldn’t it be better to say that the First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity are different manifestations of the One God?

 

[StrawberryJam]

If God the father and the Second Person of the Trinity always existed (and, I am assuming, the Third Person, the Holy Spirit) aren’t Christians saying there are three Gods? This has always puzzled me. If Jesus was the “Son of God” or the “Second Person” that implies two distinct beings. Wouldn’t it be better to say that the First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity are different manifestations of the One God?

No. Christians are not saying there are three gods. It is those who insist on having God and a god that have more than one God.

In other words, either you believe in the divinity of Jesus, or you don’t. If you do, you are a christian.

 

[humblelurker]

If God the father and the Second Person of the Trinity always existed (and, I am assuming, the Third Person, the Holy Spirit) aren’t Christians saying there are three Gods? This has always puzzled me. If Jesus was the “Son of God” or the “Second Person” that implies two distinct beings. Wouldn’t it be better to say that the First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity are different manifestations of the One God?

My own humble understanding is that They are not manifestations of the One God; Each Person is the One God. As I explained on another thread:

The problem is that you cannot understand an infinite God with a human finite mind. When faced with an infinite truth of God’s nature the finite human mind cannot understand it. If you can understand the nature of an infinite God on any level with your finite human mind then it must not be true. The Trinity is beyond the human mind to understand it. ONE God yet THREE Persons. That is what Christians call a Divine Mystery. Humanity can only accept it on faith or not.

 

[Cathryn]

If God the father and the Second Person of the Trinity always existed (and, I am assuming, the Third Person, the Holy Spirit) aren’t Christians saying there are three Gods? This has always puzzled me. If Jesus was the “Son of God” or the “Second Person” that implies two distinct beings. Wouldn’t it be better to say that the First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity are different manifestations of the One God?

They are not different manifestations of the One God. There are three Divine Persons in the one God. Each of the three divine Persons is God. These three divine Persons have one nature and one substance. This is the mystery of the Trinity and is the central mystery of the Christian faith.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Here is an article I wrote about how I understand the Trinity. Perhaps it is a bit wordy–critiques are welcome.

View attachment 7235

 

[chaunceygardner]

They are not different manifestations of the One God. There are three Divine Persons in the one God. Each of the three divine Persons is God. These three divine Persons have one nature and one substance. This is the mystery of the Trinity and is the central mystery of the Christian faith.

Three “persons” = three individuals = three Gods. Maybe it is a mystery only because we made it that way.

If Jesus as the Second Person has always existed, for what purpose did He exist prior to His incarnation? Did the Holy Spirit always exist? Which was “first”? If they have one nature and one substance (if indeed God does have substance) then are we not talking about One God who appears to us and communicates in various ways, including via the Incarnation?

Maybe I am hung up on the term “persons”, which makes it sound like there are three distinct individuals.

humblelurker:

The problem is that you cannot understand an infinite God with a human finite mind. When faced with an infinite truth of God’s nature the finite human mind cannot understand it. If you can understand the nature of an infinite God on any level with your finite human mind then it must not be true. The Trinity is beyond the human mind to understand it. ONE God yet THREE Persons. That is what Christians call a Divine Mystery. Humanity can only accept it on faith or not.

Is it a mystery because God did not give us the wherewithal to understand or is it a mystery because we turned it into one? The OP asks about understanding the Trinity, and the apparent answer is we can’t. But the Church seems to have reasons and explanations for just about everything else.

Think about the “Lord’s Prayer”, the one that Jesus gave us. One God, no mention of a Triune God. Then look at the Creed, invented by people, with “I believe in One God” as the start, but then we say we believe in two others who are also God.

So if someone said that they believed in ONE God who could and has manifested Himself in different ways (Jesus, Holy Spirit) that would be wrong. But to say we believe in THREE Gods but really only mean one, that is supposed to be right. Hmmmmm.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Why do you feel that everything must be understandable in christianity? How much of it do you think really can be understandable?
Some of it clearly is not.

 

[JimG]

God is only one essence, one entity, one nature, one being.
The three Persons of the Trinity are distinct persons, but not distinct entities.
The three Persons have existed from all eternity.
God’s nature is inherent, not dependent on His relationship to mankind.
Frank J. Sheed’s book, Theology For Beginners may help to explicate the matter. But the nature of God cannot, of course, ever be fully comprehended by the human mind.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Three “persons” = three individuals = three Gods. Maybe it is a mystery only because we made it that way.

If Jesus as the Second Person has always existed, for what purpose did He exist prior to His incarnation? Did the Holy Spirit always exist? Which was “first”? If they have one nature and one substance (if indeed God does have substance) then are we not talking about One God who appears to us and communicates in various ways, including via the Incarnation?

Maybe I am hung up on the term “persons”, which makes it sound like there are three distinct individuals.

Is it a mystery because God did not give us the wherewithal to understand or is it a mystery because we turned it into one? The OP asks about understanding the Trinity, and the apparent answer is we can’t. But the Church seems to have reasons and explanations for just about everything else.

Think about the “Lord’s Prayer”, the one that Jesus gave us. One God, no mention of a Triune God. Then look at the Creed, invented by people, with “I believe in One God” as the start, but then we say we believe in two others who are also God.

So if someone said that they believed in ONE God who could and has manifested Himself in different ways (Jesus, Holy Spirit) that would be wrong. But to say we believe in THREE Gods but really only mean one, that is supposed to be right. Hmmmmm.

Scripture (John 1:1) applies the term “Theos” to the Son. When it does this, Scripture creates a major problem for monotheists, who believe that there is only one God. Scripture previously has been adamant that there is only one true God; there were false gods, yes, but only one true God. But now in John 1:1 we have Scripture using the word Theos for a person other than the Father. The Father is obviously God, but now we have Jesus, the Son, the Word, also being called God! Quite a paradox. How to deal with this and preserve monotheism?

One early solution was used by the Docetists, that Jesus was the Father. Jesus and the Father were the same person. Hence, still only one God. Jesus only appeared to have come in the flesh, suffered and died. It was all an illusion.

However, Scripture is so clear that the Father and Jesus are separate persons, that the Docetic solution can’t be right.

Another solution (used by the Jehovah’s Witnesses) is that Jesus is “a god.” Not God, but a god. But this solution doesn’t really preserve monotheism either, because it sets up Jesus as a little God beside the true God. And since there is only one true God, the god Jesus must be a false one. The idea that Jesus is false is understandably rejected by Christians.

The idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations of the one God, is called “Modalism.” This too was rejected by early Christians again because Scripture definitely treats the three as separate persons.

So, the way the Trinity is defined is a balancing act, giving all verses of Scripture their weight about what the Godhead is. It’s true the “Trinity” is man-made in a sense, but it is the conclusion the Church is forced to by considering all of Scripture and Tradition.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So - what was “the Son” before the world and mankind was created? What would “the Son” be if God had decided not to create the world and mankind? We know “the Son” as Jesus Christ because he was sent into the world to redeem man from sin - so what was “the Son” before he actually became the literal, human son of God 2000 years ago on earth?

The term “Son” in speaking of “The Son” has nothing to do with Him becoming human or not. He was the Son, and with the Father and Holy Spirit, before creation even existed. He is called “The Son” to give us humans a glimpse of understanding of how God is a Trinity. Human fathers beget human sons, and while the human son is a different person that his father he still receives the same nature as his father.

The Trinity is Three Persons in one Divine Nature. Nature and Person are two different ‘categories’.** The Trinity is not a math problem, it is not trying to figure out how ‘1 = 3’**. That’s a category mistake (i.e. confusing two separate things).

If God the father and the Second Person of the Trinity always existed (and, I am assuming, the Third Person, the Holy Spirit) aren’t Christians saying there are three Gods? This has always puzzled me. If Jesus was the “Son of God” or the “Second Person” that implies two distinct beings. Wouldn’t it be better to say that the First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity are different manifestations of the One God?

Each Person fully ‘possesses’ the same (one) Divine Nature. The “one God” comes from the fact there is one Divine Nature. The Mystery of the Trinity is that it’s beyond human understanding how Three Persons can possess the same one Nature because all we can picture is humanity where each individual person possesses their own individual human nature.

Here is an article I wrote about how I understand the Trinity. Perhaps it is a bit wordy–critiques are welcome.

View attachment 7235

Interesting read. Not to be read apart from Theology and faith, but still interesting.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

chaunceygardner:

Three “persons” = three individuals = three Gods. Maybe it is a mystery only because we made it that way.

No, WE have not made this a mystery; it IS a sublime mystery that transcends our human understanding. What the Church has done is to codify this mystery in such a way, as to properly understand the mystery (as far as was revealed to us by Jesus in His Gospel) by using certain terminology and phrases, which should be understood in a certain way.

Why did the Church do this? Because without the proper understanding of the terminology and phrases, serious errors, and even heresies will result.

The Athanasian Creed is still the best exposition of the Trinity and of the Incarnation.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Scripture (John 1:1) applies the term “Theos” to the Son. When it does this, Scripture creates a major problem for monotheists, who believe that there is only one God. Scripture previously has been adamant that there is only one true God; there were false gods, yes, but only one true God. But now in John 1:1 we have Scripture using the word Theos for a person other than the Father. The Father is obviously God, but now we have Jesus, the Son, the Word, also being called God! Quite a paradox. How to deal with this and preserve monotheism?

So, what would have happened if the Gospel of John never existed, or was lost, or if that first chapter was not included? What would our understanding be then?

Was the concept of “One God in Three Persons” a slam dunk or was it a way to reconcile divergent viewpoints found in the NT and held by different Christian communities in the early church? It sounds that way

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Was the concept of “One God in Three Persons” a slam dunk or was it a way to reconcile divergent viewpoints found in the NT and held by different Christian communities in the early church? It sounds that way

The concept of One God in Three Persons was taught by our Savior Jesus Christ. It is HE who revealed this. The Sacred Scriptures bear this out in oblique ways, however, the doctrine of the Trinity was always taught from Apostolic times, though in a more primitive way than we do now.

It is central to Christianity, and without the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, you do not have Christianity.

 

[chaunceygardner]

No, WE have not made this a mystery; it IS a sublime mystery that transcends our human understanding. What the Church has done is to codify this mystery in such a way, as to properly understand the mystery (as far as was revealed to us by Jesus in His Gospel) by using certain terminology and phrases, which should be understood in a certain way.

Why did the Church do this? Because without the proper understanding of the terminology and phrases, serious errors, and even heresies will result.

The Church “codified” the concept of Trinity which we “should understand in a certain way”. Why did that have to occur? Why was it necessary? Could not the Church have said that it is a mystery and not tried to shoehorn it into a doctrine in an attempt to have it fit all the possibilities? And why would the Word of God be so opaque in the first place? Why would God want to confuse us and stump us like that?

AmbroseSJ:

It is central to Christianity, and without the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, you do not have Christianity.

Why couldn’t you have Christianity without our current understanding of the Trinity?

Apparently, there were many Christian communities in the early church that did not know or adhere to our current concept of the Trinity. Why was unified understanding so critical to the idea of being Christian?

 

[Ralph4454]

Ambrose, would you tell me where I can find that it was taught by our Savior Jesus Christ?
Thanks in advance.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The Church “codified” the concept of Trinity which we “should understand in a certain way”. Why did that have to occur? Why was it necessary? Could not the Church have said that it is a mystery and not tried to shoehorn it into a doctrine in an attempt to have it fit all the possibilities? And why would the Word of God be so opaque in the first place? Why would God want to confuse us and stump us like that?

I believe I already offered a suggestion as to why the Church codified the basic concepts of the Trinity. As for God, why would anyone be surprised that understanding the nature of God would be beyond our means? Do you understand what is was like for God to never have a beginning? Can you even grasp that? We know it is True, yet we can’t imagine HOW it is true. Same with the Trinity. We understand the basic facts (which God revealed to us out of Love) yet we don’t know HOW it can be. God want us to know him for Himself, not as something we conjure up in our own limited minds.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Ambrose, would you tell me where I can find that it was taught by our Savior Jesus Christ?
Thanks in advance.

You will not find an exposition of the Trinity in Scripture, but the Church’s deposit of Faith includes Sacred Scripture, along with Sacred Tradition. Everything in the Church’s deposit of Faith (which includes Scripture and Tradition) was handed down to us from the Apostles themselves. The Apostles learned directly from Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh.

The Church, over the course of centuries was forced to codify doctrines like the Trinity due to heresies and errors. The Church steers a course straight for Truth itself, and because of that, must constantly make corrections due to currents and storms that assail her on her journey. These corrections are based on the Deposit of Faith, her compass toward Truth itself. The Church has Jesus Christ as her head and captain, further proving that it is in fact JESUS CHRIST that teaches us about the Trinity.