Understanding the Truth in Regards to Contraception

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It destroys it for each act where it is used.
by this definition of “destroy”, spilling semen into any place where there is no fertile egg available to the sperm fits just as well, even if that is a woman’s infertile body…ejaculating there is as fertile an act as ejaculating on her elbow.
No, it intentionally suppresses fertility. NFP and playing scrabble in no way suppress fertility.
of course they do. What do you call deliberate refusal to comply when the systems of fertility spring into action? Every act of abstinence in the presence of fertile arousal is an act of suppressing fertility.

Knowing that the male body never stops making sperm and has a limited capacity, we know it will discharge regularly one way or another. Resisting occasions to carry out an act of fertility is an act of knowingly and purposefully making your semen spill outside.

Its the same deliberate act of suppressing fertility and spilling semen, because semen will spill whether you let your hand, your wife, or your subconscious pull the trigger.
Contraception was always seen as immoral. This is not because science was less evolved. It is because the immoral nature of the act was always seen.
but it was because science was less evolved. people used to think spilling semen was basically spilling a person.
Have you read the rich and deep Church explanations regarding the intrinsic evil of contraception?
i’m not sure which ones are the ones you’re referring to, but i’ve read a lot of church explanations against it, but i haven’t read anything that’s really made sense to me
 
The point I’m trying to make is that every male orgasm is geared towards creating new life. Are you trying to dispute that point?
yes, i would dispute that. there are several reasons for male orgasms (as can be observed by various areas of scientific study), but the most obvious one is this:

male orgasms are very regularly geared toward eliminating old sperm and making room for newer sperm, as the sperm-factory never sleeps. Regular circulation of sperm is very necessary and important, which is why an orgasm will take place with or without the cooperation of the man, but the body is known to increase sex drive in the man as the sperm builds which coaxes him toward stimulative actions that facilitate this circulation.
Masturbation is an act that is in no way geared towards generating new life.
maybe, maybe not…but regular ejaculation in response to regular build-up is absolutely geared toward the eventual generation of new life.

but since there are other known benefits to sexual stimulation, we can say that breathing a tree’s oxygen is in no way geared toward planting its fruit, but yet both are good.
With contraception you could at least claim your putting tab A in slot B. How can you not see how this blatantly contradicts how our bodies were made?
because our bodies were made much more interestingly and complex and for far more fantastic multifaceted reasons than some kind of singular utilitarianism some farmers eons ago could have imagined.
Typing on a computer does not inherently invoke semen every time in principle with the sole purpose of transmitting male fertility.
male fertility is transmitted by semen in the sense that it is passed along

but its not transmitted in the sense that it leaves point A.

it is an extension, not a move.

it does not go to waste, because it is virtually infinite, and it transmits regularly one way or another.
Your analogy isn’t even on the same playing field as what we are talking about. For even further evidence that this act should only be tied to intercourse between a man and a woman we see that the male sperm also act to make a woman more receptive to a man’s DNA, and more likely to not see it as a threat. It also acts to increase the pleasure a woman feels from intercourse. Do you need God to stick up signs that show the way?
lol i would LOVE it if God would stick up some signs about many things in life, I can’t lie.

But everything in the above quote section is fantastic to show how right man and woman are for each other. It doesn’t necessarily show how wrong any other kind of orgasm is, because orgasms outside of a fertile/procreative act do nothing to hurt that ability to procreate. There was a time, though, when people thought it did.
 
by this definition of “destroy”, spilling semen into any place where there is no fertile egg available to the sperm fits just as well, even if that is a woman’s infertile body…ejaculating there is as fertile an act as ejaculating on her elbow.

of course they do. What do you call deliberate refusal to comply when the systems of fertility spring into action? Every act of abstinence in the presence of fertile arousal is an act of suppressing fertility.

We are not creatures of instinct, but creatures of reason. We were inherently designed to apply our ability to reason to have control over when to act on those instincts and when not to. Our ability to reason does not supersede how we were created however, but rather allows us to make decisions on when to act in accord with the purposes God has inherently designed into us.

Knowing that the male body never stops making sperm and has a limited capacity, we know it will discharge regularly one way or another. Resisting occasions to carry out an act of fertility is an act of knowingly and purposefully making your semen spill outside.

The seed only spills on its own because that means there was no just reason to make use of its purpose. Its part of being a man just like a woman’s period is part of hers.

Its the same deliberate act of suppressing fertility and spilling semen, because semen will spill whether you let your hand, your wife, or your subconscious pull the trigger.

No its not. Using your argument lets say you were put in a difficult situation and were going to lose your job if you didn’t kill someone. You knew this person would be killed either way and if you didn’t pull the trigger the guy next you would. The only “real” difference would be whether you kept your job or not. By your argument you might as well pull the trigger since the person is going to die anyways. Please note I’m using the example of killing a person for shock value and to make it apparent how wrong your line of reasoning is.

i’m not sure which ones are the ones you’re referring to, but i’ve read a lot of church explanations against it, but i haven’t read anything that’s really made sense to me

That should be your warning light going off then. Lets say you were in a University in a high level math class and they were explaining something to you and it didn’t make sense. Would your first assumption be to assume they were wrong since you didn’t understand their explanation of the concept? The Church in relation to teaching on morality is easily the equivalent of a University in teaching about mathematics and you should hopefully attribute more authority to the Church on issues of morality than you would your University on mathematics. If you don’t understand something why is your immediate gut assumption to assume the Church must be wrong? You would never do that if you were in a class on mathematics at a University.

If your in search of understanding the Church’s teaching that is great, but I don’t see how not understanding it is anymore of an excuse to not believe it, than not understanding a mathematics concept would be an excuse in a class at a University. My point is that how can you assume say a teaching is wrong if you don’t even understand the reasoning behind the teaching? Your starting to make more insightful comments as to what natural law is recently, but before this in another thread you seemed completely ambivalent. You should understand that some of the harsh words that have been sent towards you are because your criticisms of natural law and complete disregard for the teachings of the Church on this issue are comparable to as if you were directing them towards a distinguished math professor about a high level math concept. You owe the Church to give her the benefit the of the doubt a first, and not come in firing on all cylinders in criticism at her every word.
 
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Nate13:
lol Nate, when you reply to quotes that way, it makes it hard to respond to them as your comments show up blank in my reply box. I’m using 2 windows to respond to you lol.

Try bracketing the parts you want to quote like this:

quote ] - begins a section
/quote ] - ends a section

the only difference is don’t use the spaces inside the brackets like i did (i just had to make sure they didn’t get registered as code here so you could see).

:
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Most of your reply seems to be defending our ability to abstain when the body sets the opposite into motion. Please don’t confuse what I said, or remove it from the context of what I was replying to when I said it. I did not mean that refusal to comply (aka abstaining) is bad. It certainly is very good and important in many many times in life. I just said it falls under the category of suppression in the way the poster I replied to used the term.
That should be your warning light going off then. Lets say you were in a University in a high level math class and they were explaining something to you and it didn’t make sense. Would your first assumption be to assume they were wrong since you didn’t understand their explanation of the concept?
No I didn’t say I don’t understand what is being said. I do comprehend what is being said. It’s just the more I think about it, the more I challenge it, the more these explanations appear flimsier and flimsier.

Its not that they aren’t easy to understand. It’s that they aren’t easy to believe.

There may in fact be an explanation that I find myself capable of buying. I just haven’t discovered it yet.
 
yes, i would dispute that. there are several reasons for male orgasms (as can be observed by various areas of scientific study), but the most obvious one is this:

male orgasms are very regularly geared toward eliminating old sperm and making room for newer sperm, as the sperm-factory never sleeps. Regular circulation of sperm is very necessary and important, which is why an orgasm will take place with or without the cooperation of the man, but the body is known to increase sex drive in the man as the sperm builds which coaxes him toward stimulative actions that facilitate this circulation.

Yes but this is the obvious clean-up action when the purpose the sperm were originally created for does not find reason to be played out. It is not an ends in and of itself. You could say part of the purpose of sperm is to die when they are no longer of use, but your body already takes care of this purpose by itself. You could never argue that the purpose of masturbation was to fulfill this purpose since its already naturally fulfilled. If regular circulation of sperm was not sufficient you may have a point in saying masturbation was necessary, but this is not the case. Normal circulation already takes care to regulate the circulation of sperm in the necessary fashion.

maybe, maybe not…but regular ejaculation in response to regular build-up is absolutely geared toward the eventual generation of new life.

but since there are other known benefits to sexual stimulation, we can say that breathing a tree’s oxygen is in no way geared toward planting its fruit, but yet both are good.

Yes but neither contradict each other. We already accept as much with our sexuality in that their can be multiple purposes. It is both for procreation and unitive bonding between spouses. Any action that fulfills the nature of these things in principle is in line with natural law. If anything your tree analogy should make this apparent. Imagine taking a couple of the purposes of a tree for example and separating them. You can’t grow an apple tree that doesn’t produce oxygen for us to breath, without completely changing what the tree is. You have to make the tree something other than what it is.

because our bodies were made much more interestingly and complex and for far more fantastic multifaceted reasons than some kind of singular utilitarianism some farmers eons ago could have imagined.

Utilitarianism is about maximizing happiness by whatever means necessary. Is not the Church’s position the opposite of that? Also please note your references to the age of the teaching are fruitless. The current teaching stands on reasoning based on the latest knowledge of the day. The only real important piece of information that may have been lacking in the past was as you said that there is no life until sperm and egg meet. I would contest how wide spread this belief was though.

male fertility is transmitted by semen in the sense that it is passed along

but its not transmitted in the sense that it leaves point A.

it is an extension, not a move.

it does not go to waste, because it is virtually infinite, and it transmits regularly one way or another.

Haha it seems your also ignoring the obvious purpose of an orgasm, which is to project the semen. An orgasm is pleasurable but also serves to push the semen out, and not just leak out. Yet another example that the male orgasm is geared towards intercourse for every single act. What reason can you come up with to project semen the way they do outside of intercourse between a man and a woman?

lol i would LOVE it if God would stick up some signs about many things in life, I can’t lie.

Did you ever think maybe you were just ignoring them? As a child we were all filled with a sense of wonder at the world, but it seems when we grow into adulthood this sense of wonder dies and we get to a point we assume we know everything there is to know.

But everything in the above quote section is fantastic to show how right man and woman are for each other. It doesn’t necessarily show how wrong any other kind of orgasm is, because orgasms outside of a fertile/procreative act do nothing to hurt that ability to procreate. There was a time, though, when people thought it did.

This isn’t about hurting our ability to procreate. When have I ever argued that it did? Please quote me so I can make a correction. Let me put it to you like this:

God gives you an optional $200,000 home loan every day. By fact of being a home loan its apparent God wants you to spend it on a home. Your asking me why your not allowed to take your home loan and spend it on a fancy car instead. I don’t know how else to respond to you other than to keep pointing out from different angles that God gave you a home loan. He didn’t just give you a loan and expect you to use reason to figure out what to spend it on. He gave you a home loan. That’s really how obvious our human sexuality is. With our ability to reason though we can decide when to actually buy a house and what kind of house to buy. If the housing market is in poor shape you might wait to buy a house. The possibility of a home loan does not immediately imply that we have to buy a home, however buying a home is innately good and we should have good and just reasons for passing up on the home loan.
 
lol Nate, when you reply to quotes that way, it makes it hard to respond to them as your comments show up blank in my reply box. I’m using 2 windows to respond to you lol.
Haha good maybe it will slow you down. I’m tired of responding to your scatter shot arguments. I responded like I did because when your post is so long I have to keep scrolling up and down as I answer all of the points of dispute you bring up. I don’t just read it all and then type one big answer, I go back and forth. Despite this I will try and make life easier for you in the future 😃 You could also solve the problem of how I post by just using copy paste.
No I didn’t say I don’t understand what is being said. I do comprehend what is being said. It’s just the more I think about it, the more I challenge it, the more these explanations appear flimsier and flimsier.
Its not that they aren’t easy to understand. It’s that they aren’t easy to believe.
There may in fact be an explanation that I find myself capable of buying. I just haven’t discovered it yet.
Excuse me if I find this hard to believe given your appeared understanding of natural law just a few days ago on another thread. Your also attempting to learn about it from over an internet forum… I’d suggest possibly finding a book or two written by someone with a phd in philosophy or theology? You showed up to class and didn’t even bother to buy the textbook.
 
by this definition of “destroy”, spilling semen into any place where there is no fertile egg available to the sperm fits just as well, even if that is a woman’s infertile body…ejaculating there is as fertile an act as ejaculating on her elbow.
No not at all. An infertile body does not suppress fertility. The act is correctly ordered objectively regardless of any subjective state related to age or some other factor.
of course they do. What do you call deliberate refusal to comply when the systems of fertility spring into action? Every act of abstinence in the presence of fertile arousal is an act of suppressing fertility.
Knowing that the male body never stops making sperm and has a limited capacity, we know it will discharge regularly one way or another. Resisting occasions to carry out an act of fertility is an act of knowingly and purposefully making your semen spill outside.
Its the same deliberate act of suppressing fertility and spilling semen, because semen will spill whether you let your hand, your wife, or your subconscious pull the trigger.
Huh? Not acting is not supressing fertility. If one engages in the marital act and frustrates the act so it is not fertile that is directly changing the act. Not acting does not suppress anything because no act takes place.
but it was because science was less evolved. people used to think spilling semen was basically spilling a person.
No, that is not why contraception is intrinsically evil. Catholicisim is not based on a type of physicalism.
i’m not sure which ones are the ones you’re referring to, but i’ve read a lot of church explanations against it, but i haven’t read anything that’s really made sense to me
Maybe start here:Veritatis splendor
 
I believe and agree on just about everything from the Catholic Church’s teachings, but this contraception is the main problem-it just never commanded us in the New Testament to have every act open. Most of the Catholic Church is pure good, but when it comes to making money, there can be a dark side to the Church, and it is apparent here. Its MONEY! They LOVE it, and even Pope John Paul II would get bitterly mad when people weren’t reproducing as much as he’d like. He’d throw hissie-fits! This comes from a Bishop that worked directly under him! This is mostly a problem of wanting more MONEY!
 
I believe and agree on just about everything from the Catholic Church’s teachings, but this contraception is the main problem-it just never commanded us in the New Testament to have every act open. Most of the Catholic Church is pure good, but when it comes to making money, there can be a dark side to the Church, and it is apparent here. Its MONEY! They LOVE it, and even Pope John Paul II would get bitterly mad when people weren’t reproducing as much as he’d like. He’d throw hissie-fits! This comes from a Bishop that worked directly under him! This is mostly a problem of wanting more MONEY!
Haha explain to me how a family with six children has more money to pay to the Church than say a family with one child? I have heard lots of things said about large families, but “rich” was never one of them. I mean lets think about this here because if the income the family is bringing in is the same all the income that would have gone to cover those 5 children could now be going towards the Church. According to all those great calculators online meant to scare people away from having kids because of how much it costs, they estimate it cost $200,000 dollars per child to get them to age 18. That doesn’t even include college costs! So now we do 5 children * $200,000 = $1,000,000! A million dollars extra to spend, much of which could go to the Church… This teaching might have all sorts of motives, but making the Church rich is not one of them. Also, ask yourself whether people give as much money to a Church every weekend that tells them almost every time they have sex they are committing a sin?

I have a semblance of respect for people who are not able to come to believe the Church’s teaching on this issue because they don’t understand it, but your response and reasoning deserves zero respect.
 
Haha explain to me how a family with six children has more money to pay to the Church than say a family with one child? I have heard lots of things said about large families, but “rich” was never one of them. I mean lets think about this here because if the income the family is bringing in is the same all the income that would have gone to cover those 5 children could now be going towards the Church. According to all those great calculators online meant to scare people away from having kids because of how much it costs, they estimate it cost $200,000 dollars per child to get them to age 18. That doesn’t even include college costs! So now we do 5 children * $200,000 = $1,000,000! A million dollars extra to spend, much of which could go to the Church… This teaching might have all sorts of motives, but making the Church rich is not one of them. Also, ask yourself whether people give as much money to a Church every weekend that tells them almost every time they have sex they are committing a sin?

I have a semblance of respect for people who are not able to come to believe the Church’s teaching on this issue because they don’t understand it, but your response and reasoning deserves zero respect.
👍 Thanks for putting this great example together Nate!

Trakehner28, your post is both baseless and ignorant. More than those, yor comment is an act of calumny (see definition in CCC 2477) and an offense against Truth, and an offense against Charity and Justice. Even if there were the slightest bit of truth to your comment, (which there is not) it is still “detraction” as defined in the above CCC reference. As your brother in Christ, I feel obligated to point you to CCC 2485-2487 (included in the link above). Your offense “against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation”, even if you have been forgiven. (CCC2487)

I tried to contact you privately about this, but you don’t receive PM’s.

In Christ,
ahs
 
I have read very interesting answers from this thread. I’d like to say that besides the moral reasons already given, we should understand that many “contraceptives” can cause abortions: ovulation may occur in spite of the “contraceptive” methods; if the egg is fertilized, the new conceived baby can’t attach to the uterus to continue growing, because the lining of the uterus has been transformed by the "contraceptives"and has became very thin to nourish the baby. Then, the baby dies and is aborted. This happens specially when using the Intrauterine Device (IUD) because this one doesn’t help to avoid ovulation. When hormones based contraceptives (pills, injection, hormonal implants like “Norplant”,etc.) fail to avoid ovulation, these work through the explained abortive effect, because these transform the lining of the uterus, as well; sometimes women don’t realize they have aborted, because the recently conceived baby is very tiny and comes out within the menstrual flow. When a woman’s egg has been fertilized,“Emergency Contraception” will cause an abortion as well.
Remember that pregnancy begins in the tube, where the egg is fertilized, almost one week before baby’s attaching to the uterus (implantation) occurs. Be aware that some pro-abortion people are giving wrong information,saying that pregnancy begins with implantation.
 
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