Understanding (Un)orthodox Practices

[William777]

Greetings,

I was wondering if someone could help me to better understand the differences between orthodox and unorthodox religious practices.

Basically, what I am trying to understand is - when religious practices lean toward the unorthodox - when do they become sinful vs simply a different way of doing things?

The best example I can cite is maybe when a Priest uses the pulpit to express ultra liberal views on a topic, or he may conduct a liturgical rite somewhat differently, and then some of the conservatives get upset at a potential departure from standard Roman Catholic teaching (I’m a Roman Catholic). Or, conversely, I guess we could consider an opposite example, where some people conserve religion by using a sense of radical fundamentalism that emphasizes literal interpretation to the point where all mercy flies out the window.

So where does one draw the line between something that is sinful vs something that is just unorthodox?

 

[Cristiano]

Anything that is unorthodox is sinful by definition, just make sure that you use the definition that the Church uses. However, a lot of of opinions and behaviors are just personal choices and as long as they do not contradict the teachings of the Church they can be acceptable. We must also consider that some behaviors that could be acceptable in some circumstances might go directly against the virtues in other situations. The bottom line is that just because we do not like something that does not mean that it is sinful, you will never get the totality of people to agree even on simple things when personal preferences are part f the decision process.

 

[William777]

Anything that is unorthodox is sinful by definition, just make sure that you use the definition that the Church uses. However, a lot of of opinions and behaviors are just personal choices and as long as they do not contradict the teachings of the Church they can be acceptable. We must also consider that some behaviors that could be acceptable in some circumstances might go directly against the virtues in other situations. The bottom line is that just because we do not like something that does not mean that it is sinful, you will never get the totality of people to agree even on simple things when personal preferences are part f the decision process.

Please forgive me, but… maybe an example would help… although it may come out as bit of a rant…

Anything that is unorthodox is sinful by definition, just make sure that you use the definition that the Church uses. However, a lot of of opinions and behaviors are just personal choices and as long as they do not contradict the teachings of the Church they can be acceptable.

I really didn’t want to cite an example, but… before I do… please know it is my intention to learn - not cast aspersions…

I am Roman Catholic, but I’ve recently taken an interest in a Byzantine Rite held at a local church. The Byzantine Rite is an Eastern liturgical practice started by Saint Basil, who is a Doctor of the Catholic Church. The Vatican approves this rite, and they themselves pray for the Pope and local Bishops in their service.

When I first started going to the services, I didnt really know what I was looking at, so I asked the Deacon. He explained to me that is was all okay to be Roman Catholic and attending a Byzantine service, but I gave him a somewhat puzzled look. He explained “But we aren’t orthodox…” And he was right to say as such, for there are departures from the ordinary Roman Ritual, such as children (even babies) can be communicants.

So my question is - if they are approved by the Vatican and at the same time unorthodox, then how can they be sinful? This makes no sense.

The bottom line is that just because we do not like something that does not mean that it is sinful, you will never get the totality of people to agree even on simple things when personal preferences are part f the decision process.

My point is not to judge anyone here - I’m actually trying to do just the opposite. But every time I feel like I can just go to church and enjoy a service - especially if it is new and interesting, or in my own Roman Rite – too liberal (I am a lousy liberal; I have tried and it just doesn’t work for me) – I keep running into this question of orthodoxy.

Take my Spiritual director. I went to him because he is a Jesuit, and Saint Ignatius wrote much of the Theology surrounding the Discernment of Spirits, which is expressed on page one in the Catechism. I figured - if you really want to discern your faith from a Catholic perspective, then who better to offer counsel than a Jesuit? And, with 60 years service to the church - even rising to the level of something like a Provincial - and being a teacher of Theology at several leading Catholic universities - I figured he’s a pretty good guy to be seeking Spiritual Direction from. He’s also a very kind and gentle guy. But some people are giving me flack now about modern Jesuits being criticized for being “unorthodox”. The Priest I’m referring to has never been anything but helpful to me, yet one of the Centers he setup has been called into question by some people.

He’s a very liberal Priest. And I’ve seen other liberal Priests (Redemptorists) who are trying to do something kind for people get criticized for their expressing their thoughts. Terms like “moral relativism” start flying around, and “disservice”, “invalid name your sacramental blessings”… and so on…

I am a moderate conservative, and it’s really quite disheartening to hear such accusations. I LIKE a lot of those liberal Priests, so - it really hurts when people start coming down on them like that… Aren’t we supposed to be forgiving? Don’t we have Christ backing us up as our Redeemer? As a Priest - wasn’t Christ himself a bit “unorthodox” to his contemporaries? Thus, they said, “This talk is hard to bear…”

Please forgive me here… It’s just I dont see - even as individuals - how we could know every last rule in every Papal Bull ever written… I’m an Extraordinary Minister, and they teach us - “even at communion accidents happen” - people sometimes drop a host, for example, and then what? There are rules as to how to handle an accident, but situations can vary so much - you just have to kind of improvise. I can only imagine what it is like for some Priests who have to give Forgiveness and Spiritual Direction in the Confessional. It may seem liberal to be so kind and forgiving, but then that’s just part of their job…

Am I making sense here? Sometimes it seems one just has to be “unorthodox”, and I dont see how that could be equated with sin at all, especially when the Vatican approves unorthodox services such as the Byzantine Rite, and accuses modern Jesuits of being “unorthodox” when the founding principle of their whole charism sits on the front page of the entire Catechism.

Somehow maybe all our feeble wits just break down in the end… That’s why we’re in the forgiving business, no?

 

[William777]

BTW, Christiano, I thank you for commenting.

I didn’t mean to harp on you personally, so much as try to open up the topic and speak to the point…

It’s just frustrating is all…

 

[TimothyH]

When I first started going to the services, I didnt really know what I was looking at, so I asked the Deacon. He explained to me that is was all okay to be Roman Catholic and attending a Byzantine service, but I gave him a somewhat puzzled look. He explained “But we aren’t orthodox…” And he was right to say as such, for there are departures from the ordinary Roman Ritual, such as children (even babies) can be communicants.

I’m guessing that the deacon meant that the Byzantine Church is not an Eastern Orothdox Church and that he was not talking about orthodox or heterodox practices and beliefs.

Upper case “O” Orthodox means the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome.

Lower case “o” orthodox means conforming to correct belief and practice, not heterodox.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches are not in communion with Rome. The Byzantine Catholic Church is. The Byzantine Church is orthodox, but they are not Orthodox. Semantics.

-Tim-

 

[Cristiano]

…I am Roman Catholic, but I’ve recently taken an interest in a Byzantine Rite held at a local church. The Byzantine Rite is an Eastern liturgical practice started by Saint Basil, who is a Doctor of the Catholic Church. The Vatican approves this rite, and they themselves pray for the Pope and local Bishops in their service.

When I first started going to the services, I didnt really know what I was looking at, so I asked the Deacon. He explained to me that is was all okay to be Roman Catholic and attending a Byzantine service, but I gave him a somewhat puzzled look. He explained “But we aren’t orthodox…” And he was right to say as such, for there are departures from the ordinary Roman Ritual, such as children (even babies) can be communicants.

So my question is - if they are approved by the Vatican and at the same time unorthodox, then how can they be sinful? This makes no sense…

First God bless you for taking an interest in attending the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. It can be a true eye opener in terms of spirituality, theology and rituals. Here you have to be careful because there are two usages of the word “orthodox”.
The first is being member of an Orthodox Church , I think that when the Deacon said that they are not Orthodox he implied that they are not part of the Orthodox Churches that are not in communion with Rome. However they are Orthodox in terms of theology and rituals.
The second usage of the word orthodox refers to the true meaning of the word and it is used to indicate that a person is completely aligned with the teachings of his Church. The Byzantine Church is a completely orthodox Catholic Church. Just because their rituals and theology are different that does not mean that they are doing something contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church thus they are orthodox.
This is similar to the use of the word “catholic” where it changes its implied meaning if you use it with a capital C or a lowercase c, Orthodox is different from orthodox.

 

[Cristiano]

…My point is not to judge anyone here - I’m actually trying to do just the opposite. But every time I feel like I can just go to church and enjoy a service - especially if it is new and interesting, or in my own Roman Rite – too liberal (I am a lousy liberal; I have tried and it just doesn’t work for me) – I keep running into this question of orthodoxy.

Take my Spiritual director. I went to him because he is a Jesuit, and Saint Ignatius wrote much of the Theology surrounding the Discernment of Spirits, which is expressed on page one in the Catechism. I figured - if you really want to discern your faith from a Catholic perspective, then who better to offer counsel than a Jesuit? And, with 60 years service to the church - even rising to the level of something like a Provincial - and being a teacher of Theology at several leading Catholic universities - I figured he’s a pretty good guy to be seeking Spiritual Direction from. He’s also a very kind and gentle guy. But some people are giving me flack now about modern Jesuits being criticized for being “unorthodox”. The Priest I’m referring to has never been anything but helpful to me, yet one of the Centers he setup has been called into question by some people.

He’s a very liberal Priest. And I’ve seen other liberal Priests (Redemptorists) who are trying to do something kind for people get criticized for their expressing their thoughts. Terms like “moral relativism” start flying around, and “disservice”, “invalid name your sacramental blessings”… and so on…

I am a moderate conservative, and it’s really quite disheartening to hear such accusations. I LIKE a lot of those liberal Priests, so - it really hurts when people start coming down on them like that… Aren’t we supposed to be forgiving? Don’t we have Christ backing us up as our Redeemer? As a Priest - wasn’t Christ himself a bit “unorthodox” to his contemporaries? Thus, they said, “This talk is hard to bear…”

Please forgive me here… It’s just I dont see - even as individuals - how we could know every last rule in every Papal Bull ever written… I’m an Extraordinary Minister, and they teach us - “even at communion accidents happen” - people sometimes drop a host, for example, and then what? There are rules as to how to handle an accident, but situations can vary so much - you just have to kind of improvise. I can only imagine what it is like for some Priests who have to give Forgiveness and Spiritual Direction in the Confessional. It may seem liberal to be so kind and forgiving, but then that’s just part of their job…

Am I making sense here? Sometimes it seems one just has to be “unorthodox”, and I dont see how that could be equated with sin at all, especially when the Vatican approves unorthodox services such as the Byzantine Rite, and accuses modern Jesuits of being “unorthodox” when the founding principle of their whole charism sits on the front page of the entire Catechism.

Somehow maybe all our feeble wits just break down in the end… That’s why we’re in the forgiving business, no?

I am not going into the details here, but I have been called a Taleban because I am considered too conservative of a Catholic and I have been called a modernist because I argue that certain aspects of traditionalism are very dangerous when taken out of context. My suggestion is just to ignore when people comment and rush to judgement, just stick to the facts try to act with charity when sharing the facts.

In regard to the Jesuits, I think that they were created to be crazy liberal thinkers, the Church needs people like that. There are some Jesuits priests that have gone too far and they have been used to give a bad name to everybody else. However, if you look at the numbers and what they are doing around the world you will notice that they keep supporting missions at cost of huge sacrifices, they keep bringing the good news to the remote and desolate corners of this planet and they keep dying for the faith like they did in the past centuries.

 

[William777]

Eh… not to worry, Christiano… I appreciate the responses…

Being a moderate conservative has its challenges… I’m moderate because I try to maintain a sense of perspective in hearing what other people have to say, but sometimes it just comes as weak… Staunch conservatives see moderation as watered down, and liberals sometimes see it as still just conservative…

It’s important to try to establish some grounds for agreement, so I was hoping to say something like… “well, if we see something that seems a bit off in church, then we can excuse it with unorthodox behavior - meaning it is just different, not sinful…” But in some ways its a good thing you told me what you did because I’d have been using “orthodoxy” all wrong…

I have a lot of studying to do on this point, however… It is written “he shall drink from the stream by the wayside, and therefore he shall lift up his head…” So this “by the wayside” - that is, this “different” sort of thinking has its place… I just wish I understood how it integrates better…

Again, it wasn’t you… It seems to be more of a sore spot with me, which I wish I could reconcile… I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut…

 

[Cristiano]

Eh… not to worry, Christiano… I appreciate the responses…

Being a moderate conservative has its challenges… I’m moderate because I try to maintain a sense of perspective in hearing what other people have to say, but sometimes it just comes as weak… Staunch conservatives see moderation as watered down, and liberals sometimes see it as still just conservative…

It’s important to try to establish some grounds for agreement, so I was hoping to say something like… “well, if we see something that seems a bit off in church, then we can excuse it with unorthodox behavior - meaning it is just different, not sinful…” But in some ways its a good thing you told me what you did because I’d have been using “orthodoxy” all wrong…

I have a lot of studying to do on this point, however… It is written “he shall drink from the stream by the wayside, and therefore he shall lift up his head…” So this “by the wayside” - that is, this “different” sort of thinking has its place… I just wish I understood how it integrates better…

Again, it wasn’t you… It seems to be more of a sore spot with me, which I wish I could reconcile… I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut…

I understand very well that you were not attacking me in any way. You needed to rant about something that did not sound right. I am glad that you shared your feelings. The bottom line is that we simply have to do our best and to accept the fact that sometimes we will fail, God will not judge us for our success rate, he is much smarter than that. As long as we try to follow the greatest commandment we cannot do too much damage, the divine providence is there to assist us. Once we honestly acknowledge our shortcomings, then we are able to understand and forgive the shortcomings of others. Sometime we cannot reconcile things and that is when we have to simply trust in God and his Church, we have ample evidence that such an approach is the most effective to get us out of sticky situations.