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Havard
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I’m a lawyer and am discerning a religious vocation. I wouldn’t say that law makes me unhappy, but I do feel called to something else. My spiritual director is a priest, but he’s a also former judge. 
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Yeoman
Guest
Wow.! How long have you practiced, and how long did your spiritual director practice?I’m a lawyer and am discerning a religious vocation. I wouldn’t say that law makes me unhappy, but I do feel called to something else. My spiritual director is a priest, but he’s a also former judge.
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bretttrembly
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One of my friend also a professional lawyer. Last day, While on our discussion he has to share the same view about the law and spiritual.I’m a lawyer and am discerning a religious vocation. I wouldn’t say that law makes me unhappy, but I do feel called to something else. My spiritual director is a priest, but he’s a also former judge.
Business Lawyer Miami
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BernadetteM
Guest
I can’t speak as a lawyer, only as one who feels victimized by four different lawyers.
You all say you are unhappy as lawyers, and I was wondering if this is because in your profession you must do things that are not always ethical towards your clients.
I ask this only because this has been my families experience with lawyers. Money is their major concern, not their client. Sometimes as we are older we see that we have done things in the past that were not what Christ would have approved of.
I am not trying to be uncharitable, only stating honest truth about what some lawyers have done to our family over the years. So I have no trust in them, nor in some other professions that at one time made oaths to help their patients. My family has been victims and have not received real justice through the court system, nor social services.
I know this sounds really negative, but it seems as if society has been turned upside down these past years and as a younger woman said to me, I just want to have “fun”, as that is what everyone does.
I do understand that certain professional are limited in how far they can actually go to help a client, but I don’t know if that includes lawyers or if, at least the ones we have dealt with are just greedy and care nothing about whether a child has been harmed or a family destroyed, as long as it is worth the financial advantages they receive.
Sorry, I guess I have just gotten to the end of my rope with several so called professionals who claim to help.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
You all say you are unhappy as lawyers, and I was wondering if this is because in your profession you must do things that are not always ethical towards your clients.
I ask this only because this has been my families experience with lawyers. Money is their major concern, not their client. Sometimes as we are older we see that we have done things in the past that were not what Christ would have approved of.
I am not trying to be uncharitable, only stating honest truth about what some lawyers have done to our family over the years. So I have no trust in them, nor in some other professions that at one time made oaths to help their patients. My family has been victims and have not received real justice through the court system, nor social services.
I know this sounds really negative, but it seems as if society has been turned upside down these past years and as a younger woman said to me, I just want to have “fun”, as that is what everyone does.
I do understand that certain professional are limited in how far they can actually go to help a client, but I don’t know if that includes lawyers or if, at least the ones we have dealt with are just greedy and care nothing about whether a child has been harmed or a family destroyed, as long as it is worth the financial advantages they receive.
Sorry, I guess I have just gotten to the end of my rope with several so called professionals who claim to help.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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AnneTeresa
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I am certified as a Career Development Facilitator, which means trained to work with people on career issues. I understand how it feels you may be stuck with no options but that is not the case. Most people with a law degree do not work as lawyers. There are ways to present yourself to prospective employers so you will not be pigeonholed into the same type of work. My suggestion is to see a qualified career counselor who can help you figure out how to do this. I will also say a prayer for you all who are struggling.
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Yeoman
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Well, in answer to your question, yes and no, but probably not in the way you mean it.
Christian lawyers do indeed face moral questions in their daily lives potentially more frequently than most others. Perhaps only soldiers face them more often. This is in part because of the nature of the system, and in part because of what the system has become. The system is very money driven, and in order to be comfortable with the work a person has to be comfortable with the concept that a set of rules and goals imposed by men should dictate our actions. So, like soldiers at war, in order to really be comfortable with it, we have to feel that as long as we are acting according to the dictates of the rules, we’re doing what we should be doing. That suspends our greater judgment, which if we think much about it becomes a problem.
And you are correct that the modern practice of law, like some other professions, has become so money driven that money is a predominate consideration with many, many lawyers.
But that’s only part of it. Strife and frustration are probably a bigger part of lawyer dissatisfaction.
And here’s where the uncomfortable part of this post will come in.
I know absolutely nothing about your situation, but one of the really frustrating things about being a lawyer is that clients come in with a legal problem, and the lawyer can work on those, but very, very often, the client isn’t really interested in the legal solution. They want victory, justice or revenge, and typically think of all three of them a just goal in their own case. The law provides a limited range of solutions to any problem, and the right result isn’t always the one that can be achieved. If the goal is victory, justice or revenge, they will never be really satisfied, normally, with the result. Whenever the desired result isn’t achieved, the client always feels that it is the lawyers fault. There tends to be a lot of blame for failure even when the problem the lawyer faced was insurmountable.
Additionally, clients tend to transfer the entire burden of their lives to lawyers, if the lawyer lets them. I’ve handled many problems that had very little to do with the law, as the client will come in and basically get to the point that everything that burdens them is transferred. That’s a terrible burden for a person who didn’t start off with being sort of a social work in mind.
Finally, a significant number of people believe that all lawyers are rich, which is extremely far from true. As a result, lawyers get stiffed on bills all the time. If the client’s personal goal isn’t achieved, the client tends to figure they should not have to pay. I had one case, for example, that I put a lot of work into only to learn, as I went along, that it simply was not winnable. I recommended the settlement that I could get, which was more than was deserved, but then the client didn’t want me to send any bill at all, even for costs (I waived my fee). It was their own expectation that was unreasonable, but in their mind they were justified in taking all the money that was acquired and not paying anything at all. This is a very common view. Indeed, one of the frustrating things a lawyer will learn about human nature is that if you give people in distress a break, they devalue your work and demand more breaks. Experienced lawyers, having gone through this, demand their payment as they have earned it and well know that if they do not, they’ll receive nothing.
Difficult topics, constant fighting, lawyers who are disagreeable, clients who are seeking solutions to the problems of their lives that are social rather than legal, all these take their toll.
They particularly take their toll on people whose instinct is “to help people” or who are intellectuals. For those whose instinct is to help, economics and the situation would suggest that looking at the seminary is a better option. For intellectuals, unless they also desire to help people (seminary again), they will always be frustrated as the practice isn’t all that intellectual as a rule.
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BernadetteM
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Thank you for your response. Since as you said you don’t know my situation/s, you were honest with your statements.
I do understand that there are clients who expect more than they should receive, however, in the our last case, although there will be money involved, that is not what started the case.
As you noticed I also mentioned social services and should have mentioned the police, CPS and the court in general. Society has moved from a Judeo/Christian country to a fanatical socialized one. We read everyday where children are abused and are returned to the abuser when it is a family member who does the abusing. The victims become victims again of the whole system. I know that there are honest, ethical lawyers and doctors who actually do try to find out what is wrong with their patient, but they are few and far between.
If I seem bitter, then I probably am, as the older I become and more experiences with certain agencies, professions, etc., the more I have lost my innocence of my youth.
This is a sad situation that one must question the motives of everyone, instead of believing in the good of most.
If you do decide to become a priest, I am sure that it will be an asset to the Church. Of course being a priest today is also a difficult vocation and no matter where, politics always plays a role, even in the Church.
I try to believe that as God as said “vengeance is mine saith the Lord”, and although still angry about the circumstances, know that at some point in time, our Savior will be judging us and He has the final say.
God Bless
Bernadette
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Kount_C
Guest
No offense, I don’t know how anyone could be un happy that was given an opportunity and a brain powerful enough with a support system to gain such a prestigious education.
Try to be thankful, your in the position your in friend. PM me if you want to hear industrial construction stories. Friend, please count your blessings, I’m almost 35 and have been working on a BS degree for nearly 9 years. I would give my left eye to be in your position.
Best of luck to you God bless
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jilly4ski
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How would you like to have a home mortgage worth of school loans (I am talking $150,000). be making less than $40,000 in your “chosen profession” which you paid out the nose for, plus be on the hook for several thousands of dollars every 3 years just to maintain said position in your profession. The legal market is such, as I have little chance of breaking into a firm or a company where I can make more than at the temporary work I have now. Even if I did, attorneys are often working 12 hour days, putting in almost double the amount of hours as they can actually bill for (that means working almost 16hrs for 8 hours of pay). Many of the people I work with, have their own practices and do any kind of work on the side. They are always working and never have family time, they struggle to make ends meet. One lady, had her firm go out of business, because clients wouldn’t pay them. I work with people who have 7-15 years of legal experience and cannot find work, despite great credentials.
I am thankful, my loans are in IBR and I don’t have to make payments right now, my work is flexible (despite the low pay and boring work) and I get to spend time with my kids when I am not on a project, and Grandma has been able to watch them for cheaper than daycare while I am working. (Which is a great blessing for us and the kids).
All I am saying is that people have their problems regardless. It is like telling families that struggle with hyper-fertility to stop complaining because of all the infertile woman who can’t have children. Each has their own cross. Attorneys have some of the highest rates of alcoholism and depression of any profession. Attorneys and those in the legal profession carry their own crosses, just like those in other professions carry theirs.
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Yeoman
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You’ve touched on one of the real truths of the profession, as it currently is, that is nearly impossible to explain to those not in it. Indeed, it is worse that you relate, in some localities.
The general belief is that the profession of law is lucrative and that once a person obtains the degree, their real problems are over. In fact, they’ve just begun. The real wages most working lawyers receive are far, far smaller than people realize. In one urban area that a cousin of mine, also a lawyer, works ins, the average annual salary for a lawyer is $40,000/year. That’s not much for an urban area.
The era when lawyers became partners and worked less than their hard working associates is over. Partners in most real law firms work very long hours. Very long days, and six day weeks, are common. And its not an uncommon experience for a lawyer to receive complaints from somebody about how poorly they are doing, only to find that the person complaining to them is doing better than they are. And this isn’t just lawyers who have less than ten years experience, but includes some lawyers with more years than that. Now, lawyers with even decades of trial experience are finding themselves out of work with nowhere to go.
Substance abuse is very common in the legal profession. And if we go beyond that, and look at other sorts of destructive and destractive behavior, we see that many lawyers address the stress of their professions with illicit activities. These are justified, but its true. Alcoholism, drug addiction, smoking, gambling, and divorce all show up in the profession to a degree that shows this. Lawyers have the second highest suicide rate by profession, with dentists being first. That must, I’d note, say something about dentistry.
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Yeoman
Guest
Just a couple of notes, its interesting that apparently presently law is no longer regarded as “prestigious” except amongst the poor. That’s interesting as the profession has actually tended to be a gateway into the middle class for the poor who obtained the education one way or another. There are a lot of examples of that.
Now, amongst the wealthy and middle class, the profession is known to be a potential dead end for those just entering it. Unemployment rates are large. Applications to law school have fallen 50% in the past couple of years. But amongst the poor, whose exposure to the law is infrequent or generally unfortunate, the news hasn’t filtered through.
Those entering law school today have to be either really lacking in information, or they really want to do the job very badly. In that last case, that’s probably a good thing for the profession.
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Vigilant
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Running short on time. I only skimmed over the first page of this.
Consider a career in Law Enforcement.
Consider a career in Law Enforcement.
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LionsDen66
Guest
B, thanks for your thoughts, and I’m sorry you had bad experiences with lawyers. So have I – and very professions are immune from such stories. There’s ‘bad’ everything(s). As a lawyer who worked for 20 years in the criminal/juvenile system, I can assure you ‘greed’ has been nowhere on my map. There must be money available for greed to take hold. Most of the clients I represented were indigent (broke) or I represented the government (also broke). I haven’t practiced law to get wealthy, and I am not wealthy. Retirement is not an option for me. But I do feel badly for you and I’ll say a rosary in your name!
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LionsDen66
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Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. The career development professional I have met with is much more skeptical than you. She basically told me that I was naïve if I thought that my 20 years of law would transfer easily into the corporate world. She thinks I should ‘just stay in the law.’
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LionsDen66
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No offense taken my friend. I’ll give you my 20 years of law burnout in exchange for the chance to use my hands on an industrial work site … it sounds like a good day of hard labor which would provide a much needed night of sleep. I’d rather fight with a hammer and nails than with greedy lawyers, arrogant judges and clients who can’t pay.
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Kount_C
Guest
Why are the loans so high in that schooling? and also why is the pay so low. Criminals are everywhere, I would think that DUI’s and drug addicts would offer a great source of revenue for someone in law. Why is the pay so low after a JD?
I’ve been working nearly 9 years on a BS in mechanical engineering.
I’ve had meth head bosses, working industrial construction, prostitutes, half the crew getting cranked up int he morning, and the other half getting coked up int he morning.
I hate it, I would do anything to have a upper echelon education with an opportunity in life.
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Kount_C
Guest
I wasn’t poor until I went back to school. I was 29 years old buying my first house cash, as a power plant welder / mechanic. But I hate the profession so I decided to stay at home and try to finish this degree. I see anything that is a masters or JD to be superior.
It seems to me like Job portability would be anywhere, you want to go. with in the state,
not having to breathe in hexa-valent chrome and asbestos.
I honestly wouldn’t mind getting my ME degree then trying to do a law school, and be a labor lawyer, or patten lawyer but age is catching up to me now at 34.
Cheers!
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Yeoman
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At 34, you are still plenty young, depending upon when you finish engineering, of course.
I didn’t mean to suggest you were poor. Indeed, I know nothing at all about you, of course.
Law degrees are not terribly portable. That’s one of the big myths of the JD, and one which is unfortunately perpetuated by law schools. A JD generally lets you practice law, nothing else. Once you have practiced law for a time, you are qualified to do what you are doing. Lawyers who have worked in one area of the law tend to remain in it, as that’s what they know how to do, and that’s what other people know them to do. There are lawyers who work into another practice area, but that is not easy to do.
Most employers are very leery of hiring a lawyer to do anything other than practice law. Lawyers are disliked by most non lawyers as a class, and are not trusted. If a lawyer wants out of law most prospective employers won’t bother considering hiring him as they fear that the lawyer will be trouble in one fashion or another. Lawyers who have tried to apply for non law jobs generally find that to be the case.
One of the topics we’ve sort of talked around here is misdirected civil vocations. A true vocation (i.e., a calling) is different, of course, but it is the case that people’s talents head them in one direction or another, and they are suited for one direction or another. It’s a weird irony of our condition that we can be good at something we don’t like doing, or bad at something we love doing. This is probably more the case now than any time in human history. By extension, it’s a sad fact that people often believe one vocation amounts to something other than it really does, and learning the true nature of any one occupation is difficult prior to being in it. One of the things that we might really be exploring here is that law might have simply been recruiting the wrong people. By being more open about its nature, it might find people who are extremely well suited for it as a rule. Indeed, there are certainly lawyers, including Catholic ones, who love the profession.
On patent lawyers, a patent lawyer can actually take that bar without a JD, fwiw, but I don’t otherwise know the criteria. Many patent lawyers do have engineering or related degrees. It is a true specialty, about which most of us know very little.
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Yeoman
Guest
One of my big fears. Looking around I note that I find retiring lawyers in my area to be a lawyer. Most work until they die. Maybe that’s what they want to do, but for me and my close relatives who took this up, we think it’s what we’ll have to do.
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jilly4ski
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Too many lawyers and too many clients who can’t or don’t want to pay for services. Do you really think most criminals, DUI’s, and drug addicts can pay for attorney services? They are too busy paying for alcohol and drugs.
Law school is expensive because they can be. The demand was really high for several years when people couldn’t find other work, they entered law school to let the economy recover and to have a “profession” in which they could earn a living. (Also, law schools have relatively low start up costs. So they can start up and produce more lawyers in a already saturated market).
PS- if you want to join the upper echelons of society, don’t become a lawyer. Get your management or finance degree and go work for a large corporation.
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