Unification

[alfredo]

JGC:

Well, some Orthodox would say yes, while others… would say no.

This points out another problem that I see to reunion of the two Churches. It looks like the Orthodox are divided among themselves on certain issues and then who does in fact speak for the Eastern Orthodox Church? For example, the Ecumenical Patriarch has referred to the RCC as a “sister Church”. But I would guess that if you asked Father Ambrose if the RCC is a sister Church to the Eastern Orthodox Church, he would say no. I would guess that he does not accept this teaching of His All Holiness the Ecumencial Patriarch. So who would be the final E.O. authority in deciding whether or not a reunion should be accepted. Add to this the fact the the desire for reunion appears to be a bit weak on the Orthodox side leads me to the conclusion that the reunion will not be coming anytime soon.

 

[JW10631]

There will be no reunification anytime soon.
Perhaps, one day, but not soon.

 

[Irenicist]

Fr Ambrose:

I would find it hard to agree with this. While it is true that the Orthodox look upon the Church as a “pleroma” -a fullness- which includes both the bishops AND the faithful, it would be quite wrong to lay the blame for the impasse in the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue at the feet ot the “lower” clergy and the monks and nuns.

The top-flight “Catholic-Orthodox International Theological Consultation” is represented by the very best Orthodox theologians and bishops. Their dialogue ground to a halt in the 1980s because the Orthodox theologians refused to accept Roman Catholic baptism. This caused a walk out of the Catholic delegates.

Likewise it was these top-level bishops and theologians who could not agree over Uniatism at a later meeting. In this case the Orthodox walked out.

There has been an attempt to revive this Dialogue at Baltimore a few years ago - it was another disaster, again because of Uniatism. Cardinal Kasper reported that he and the other Catholic delegates were on the verge of another walk out.

So we see that the impasse and the main obstacle are not simply the rabble at the bottom holding up matters. It extends right up to the most theologically educated of the Orthodox Church. These people do have the “opportunity for meetings and dialogue with their Catholic counterparts” but still the problems seem immense even at this top level.

Actually, Father, I don’t dissagree with anything you wrote here. I am not suggesting that the Orthodox hierarchy is ready to cross over and is being held back by the rest of the Orthodox Church. All I am saying is that any eventual agreeemnt will be a much harder sell for Orthodoxy, because the Orthodox faithful will not simply follow their bishops in the matter. We are nowhere near that point yet.

Irenicist

 

[Hesychios]

Greetings all,
Between the Catholic and Orhodox churches I think that the best that can be hoped for is intercommunion, not organic unity.

In our lifetimes intercommunion is highly doubtful, perhaps in a few hundred years.

I think intercommunion is true unity in the sense Christ asks for us to all be one “as I and the Father are One”. Intercommunion can not happen unless we all come to some basic agreement as to what it means to be a Chistian, what is necessary to hope to attain Salvation, and nothing more than that.

To expect organic unity, where each church regardless of tradition is part of the same organizational and financial network, I think will never happen. I also think that it is not really necessary, and prayers for that willl not be heard even until the end of days.

Just my opinion.
+T+
Michael

 

[alfredo]

Hesychios:

Between the Catholic and Orhodox churches I think that the best that can be hoped for is intercommunion, not organic unity.

It looks to me like intercommunion is not going to happen in the near future, if one of the Churches has a respected group of theologians and faithful who consider the Baptism of the other Church to be invalid (nevermind the other Sacraments). And the Orthodox side does not appear to be overly enthusiastic about giving Holy Communion to Catholics.

 

[jimmy]

I agree with Hesichios and JGC that what we will get is not full union where one becomes part of the other or where they become completely one body under one head. I think there could be some kind of union as Hesichios said, where both sides recognize eachother. It is very unlikely that it will happen within our lifetimes. There are some differences that need to be worked out and it will take a lot of time.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

alfredo:

This points out another problem that I see to reunion of the two Churches. It looks like the Orthodox are divided among themselves on certain issues.

Orthodoxy appears divided to outsiders because one issue which divides us and which we squabble over strongly is how we approach ecumenism. And it is in the ecumenical arena where the non-Orthodox usually meet us -it is nearly always an ecumenical contact. So here they will get conflicting answers. Hence we appear divided.

All the same, it is noticeable over the last two decades that the “liberal” attitude to ecumenism is loosing ground and the conservative one is now in the ascendancy. This is partly due to the anti-ecumenical approach of the Russian Church now that it is free of Communism and able to act freely.

But ecumenism is something external to Orthodoxy. It is on the periphery. It does not divide us internally.

The fact is that the Orthodox faith is 100% united. No Church has any other teaching than what all the Orthodox Churches hold.

The two issues which divide Orthodoxy are:

1. ecumenism, our relationship with the non-Orthodox
2. the Calendar issue, the introduction of the Gregorian calendar has caused schism in Greece, Bulgaria and Romania.