Union Busting Is Mortal Sin, Catholic Scholars Say

[human_being]

ncronline.org/news/union-busting-mortal-sin-catholic-scholars-say

WASHINGTON – A group of Catholic scholars contends that management efforts to break labor unions are a grave breach of the church’s social doctrine and tantamount to committing mortal sin.

A statement from Weymouth, Mass.-based Catholic Scholars for Worker Justice, released May 1, the feast of St. Joseph the Worker, offers a detailed argument that actions to thwart union organizing campaigns, stifle contract talks, unilaterally roll back wages and benefits, and break existing labor agreements are a “grave violation of Catholic social doctrine on labor unions.”

“This violation of Catholic doctrine constitutes material grounds for mortal sin because it stands in grave violation of both the letter and spirit of Catholic social doctrine,” said the document, titled “Union Busting Is a Mortal Sin.”

In laying out their argument, the scholars said efforts to deny workers the right to organize violate the First, Fifth and Seventh commandments regarding idolatry, scandal and theft, respectively.

There’s more in the link. What do we think of this? I agree with it. Of course. Her it comes. I’m ready. This guy to my right has got me covered :yup:.:nunchuk:

 

[rwoehmke]

Any one who is familiar with the struggles of the laboring man over the past three centuries might be expected to agree with this evaluation. There are many of us middle class people who owe our place in society to the struggles of one or more of our ancestors for a living wage, a secure job, and the right to collective bargaining. Many management types owe their advancement to unions to which they did not belong. Their position in life was improved by upper management just to keep them ahead of the hard won improvements gained by labor.

When one of my sons graduated from Georgetown U as an Accountant, I realized that without the Unions he would probably have spent his youth shoveling cow manure like his father before him. When there is no union in the work place, the balance of power is upset in management’s favor and most management, without restraint, eventually becomes exploitive. We have had a large middle class in this country because of the growing strength of labor unions starting in about 1930. With the current decline in union strength we can expect to see this middle class continue to shrink. The increasing gap between the wealth of the top couple of percent and the rest of us will increase exponentially as the labor movement is stymied by anti-union activity.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

Any one who is familiar with the struggles of the laboring man over the past three centuries might be expected to agree with this evaluation. There are many of us middle class people who owe our place in society to the struggles of one or more of our ancestors for a living wage, a secure job, and the right to collective bargaining. Many management types owe their advancement to unions to which they did not belong. Their position in life was improved by upper management just to keep them ahead of the hard won improvements gained by labor.

When one of my sons graduated from George town as an Accountant, I realized that without the Unions he would probably have spent his youth shoveling cow manure like his father before him. When there is no union in the work place, the balance of power is upset in management’s favor and most management, without restraint, eventually becomes exploitive. We have had a large middle class in this country because of the growing strength of labor unions starting in about 1930. With the current decline in union strength we can expect to see this middle class continue to shrink. The increasing gap between the wealth of the top couple of percent and the rest of us will increase exponentially as the labor movement is stymied by anti-union activity.

My son graduated from Boston College last weekend. H e would not have been able to do this if his grandfathers had not been able to elevate themselves through the efforts of unions.

 

[addictedkoala]

What non-management who don’t like unions? They keep sending protesters to the business I work, and we’re all part time. Yes unions served a very beneficial and great purpose 60-100 years ago and I appreciate the work those men did, but now they (union leaders) just try to exploit businesses and people as much as possible to make money. My mother, working in a hospital, had steel workers union members show up to recruit people. If hospital workers are qualified to join the steel union, then there’s a problem.

 

[pnewton]

I think it should be noted that if one goes to the source site, we find that this is not a Church document that is saying this. This is not a scholarly work that examines all sides. It is a one-sided opinion of what the Church teaches. In contrast,* Caritas in Veritate* is a balanced work of social doctrine with a broader scope. This Union-busting article will no doubt gain more supporters, a that is the specific goal of this group.

Catholic theology rather looks to determine truth as lead by the Holy Spirit. Trying to make theology fit what we already believe is bad theology. We need to listen to God and not try and tell God what we want Him to tell us.

Here is a direct link to the think tank that produced this document:

catholicscholarsforworkerjustice.org/

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

I think it should be noted that if one goes to the source site, we find that this is not a Church document that is saying this. This is not a scholarly work that examines all sides. It is a one-sided opinion of what the Church teaches. In contrast,* Caritas in Veritate* is a balanced work of social doctrine with a broader scope. This Union-busting article will no doubt gain more supporters, a that is the specific goal of this group.

Catholic theology rather looks to determine truth as lead by the Holy Spirit. Trying to make theology fit what we already believe is bad theology. We need to listen to God and not try and tell God what we want Him to tell us. This statement is not clear to me. Would you mind restating it.

Here is a direct link to the think tank that produced this document:

catholicscholarsforworkerjustice.org/

Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit want laborers to be paid fairly?
The article states that they are in no position to claim who is in the state of mortal sin.

 

[pnewton]

Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit want laborers to be paid fairly?
.

Yes, but that is not really the issue, or at least the only labor issue. Caritas in Veritate clearly states that workers have a right to organize for mutual self-interest. The Scriptures tell us that employees are not to treat workers unjust. These are clear. The idea that anti-union action can be a mortal sin is not a Catholic teaching, though. This is a new thought that these few people came up with. There is no reason for one to believe it, or disbelieve it.

I am troubled by some of the things labeled as “union-busting”. If there is an intent to deny workers the right to organize, then such action would be contrary to the teaching of the Holy Father. However, limiting the power of the union is not the same as denying a right to organize. There is a balance between labor and management. A strike is an attempt to gain greater power on the labor side. Management can likewise attempt to gain more power. Catholics may disagree where the proper balance between labor and management is.

In the long run, a union can damage productive and produce massive layoffs or management can reduce laborers to abject misery. What is best is that both work together. I do not see this labor advocacy group going around and labeling something as mortal sin that the Church has not to be beneficial. I think it says more about them as a group than anyone else.

 

[pnewton]

Catholic theology rather looks to determine truth as lead by the Holy Spirit. Trying to make theology fit what we already believe is bad theology. We need to listen to God and not try and tell God what we want Him to tell us.

This statement is not clear to me. Would you mind restating it.

Let me take a stab. If the USCCB, the Vatican or anyother group wants to try and understand something from God’s eyes, they are going to try and look at the problem from all angles. A brief tour of this groups website shows that they have but one angle. If Catholics For a Free Choice had a group of their scholars work up a paper on abortion or homosexual marriage, they would only include that part of Scripture and Church documents that support their teaching. We would do wise to take their conclusions with a grain of salt.

I grew up a Baptist and learned the difference exegesis and eisigesis. The first is when you try to understand what Scripture says, read “out of” it. The latter is when we try to make Scripture say what we want, read “into” it. When we approach anything with an opinion, we will always see what we want.

 

[tjm190]

Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit want laborers to be paid fairly?
The article states that they are in no position to claim who is in the state of mortal sin.

If you and I agree on a wage, who is anyone else to say it isn’t a fair one?
Workers have the right to assemble, but businesses have the right to refuse to work with a union.

 

[human_being]

If you and I agree on a wage, who is anyone else to say it isn’t a fair one?
Workers have the right to assemble, but businesses have the right to refuse to work with a union.

I don’t know that it is anybody’s say to say that it is fair or not…but if your workers organize (by majority vote) and a contract is signed by the union and the company. …it is the courts who say that if you singed it and disagree to pay the bargained for rate that it is illegal for you not to pay it. Illegal, not fair or unfair. And your workers do have a right to organize, although the cards have been stacked against the average worker in favor of the comopanies since Reagan was in office. …even if the workers at a particular employer vote to join a union and win the vote, fair and square, companies take options to not sign the contrac or even negotiatie one for as long as they can. There is a memeber on this site going throught that right now…The union was voted in months ago, maybe close to a year ago. …After that these companies, who probably poossses a similar attitude, use all the "legal union busting tricks in the book to fight it…And no doubt they still "fire’ people and put people against each other in order to “punish” the employees for exercising their rights…until they get them to decertify before they even get a contract.
There are plenty of stories out there right now of union companies wjho are refusing to re-negotiate or negaotiate contracts…UPS has had no contract with their airline mechnaics for almost 4 years. They refuse to sign…yet the workers in the union will be portrayed as evil union guys for going on strike should the company refuse to negotiate.
4 years with no contract…would the media loudmouths who aid in setting people against the unions go 4 years without a multimillion dollar contract…I doubt they’d work a day without one.

 

[tjm190]

I don’t know that it is anybody’s say to say that it is fair or not…but if your workers organize (by majority vote) and a contract is signed by the union and the company. …it is the courts who say that if you singed it and disagree to pay the bargained for rate that it is illegal for you not to pay it. Illegal, not fair or unfair. And your workers do have a right to organize, although the cards have been stacked against the average worker in favor of the comopanies since Reagan was in office. …even if the workers at a particular employer vote to join a union and win the vote, fair and square, companies take options to not sign the contrac or even negotiatie one for as long as they can. There is a memeber on this site going throught that right now…The union was voted in months ago, maybe close to a year ago. …After that these companies, who probably poossses a similar attitude, use all the "legal union busting tricks in the book to fight it…And no doubt they still "fire’ people and put people against each other in order to “punish” the employees for exercising their rights…until they get them to decertify before they even get a contract.
There are plenty of stories out there right now of union companies wjho are refusing to re-negotiate or negaotiate contracts…UPS has had no contract with their airline mechnaics for almost 4 years. They refuse to sign…yet the workers in the union will be portrayed as evil union guys for going on strike should the company refuse to negotiate.
4 years with no contract…would the media loudmouths who aid in setting people against the unions go 4 years without a multimillion dollar contract…I doubt they’d work a day without one.

Again- workers are free to organize, but why does the company have to work with that organization? If the majority want to organize, who protects the right of the minority who in many cases will be forced to join the union or have to seek work elsewhere?
Unions are one of the main reasons US workers have trouble competing with overseas workers, sending more and more jobs to other areas.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Unions are one of the main reasons US workers have trouble competing with overseas workers, sending more and more jobs to other areas.

I am not sure that this is true, since only about 7% of private sector jobs are unionized and many of those jobs are in the service sector which doesn’t compete directly with foreign producers.

 

[tjm190]

I am not sure that this is true, since only about 7% of private sector jobs are unionized and many of those jobs are in the service sector which doesn’t compete directly with foreign producers.

Not currently obviously- the majority of jobs that can be shipped elsewhere already have been.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I actually find one of the replies in the Comments section for this article more accurate than what the large number --cough,cough-- of thirteen Catholic “scholars” say:

This document certainly should not be considered scholarly as there needs to be a lot more (name removed by moderator)ut into the corruption that now pervades the Trade Union Movement.

…The political, social, and moral activities of Unions need to be investigated before arriving at any conclusion.
…

The union movement has certainly not kept pace with modern times, and has become corrupt to the core. Many take sides with only a select few benefiting. The Trade Union movement is in dire need of overhaul, just as the Church is in need of reform.

In my region, it’s the unions (their representatives) that are the bullies, the aggressors, the exploiters, the manipulators, while Management cowers. It is the unions that have powerful friends in the press. It is unions which have an overwhelming and *de facto *domination in any locale and regarding any topic that is PC.

 

[human_being]

Again- workers are free to organize, but why does the company have to work with that organization? If the majority want to organize, who protects the right of the minority who in many cases will be forced to join the union or have to seek work elsewhere?
Unions are one of the main reasons US workers have trouble competing with overseas workers, sending more and more jobs to other areas.

If a country is all about profits and is going to move over seas for ways of skirting the morally right ways of employment that we have established here…they are gonna go whether they are union or not…I suggest to anybody accusing others of not wanting to compete with overseas workers salaries to try the overseas salary in your own profession.ie,you live on what they live on overseas.Like our workers are expected too. Anti-union attitudes are what allows all the foreign junk in here and affects legislations which makes it so our people cannot keep a decent standard of living s they compete with overseas workers…as the union numbers go down here…more and more want socialism because the desire for profit has overpowered the desire to have the best country in the world…One topic-National healthcare comes to mind…As more and more people were left to fend for themselves without unions, more and more lost insurance…poof!..in comes the government and national healthcare…Now the pensions.
You either support the unions or end up with socialism or third world standards. Housing and land is too expensive here to go without unions…you will only lower us to third worlders seeking socialism without unions. And they are one of the only lobby groups which advocate for the largest group of people in the country. The lower to middle class workers. The majority should have a strong lobby group and the unions are it…Without them the bankers and Wall Street have consistently used their power and money to make things better for themselves as the workers “profits” are raided"…

 

[human_being]

Again- workers are free to organize, but why does the company have to work with that organization? If the majority want to organize, who protects the right of the minority who in many cases will be forced to join the union or have to seek work elsewhere?
Unions are one of the main reasons US workers have trouble competing with overseas workers, sending more and more jobs to other areas.

Since Bush senior was in office there are federal laws allowing people who do not wish to join the right to only pay a partial dues fee. which isn’t much. My full dues fee is less than $60/month and covers healthcare for 5 and has a pension(negotiated out due to the economy) and covers my representation of upholding the contract.along with alot of other great bennies…imagine what partial is… But they do not have to pay for things such as grievance hearings and stuff like that. They just pay for what the union negotiated for them which is much better than they could negotiate on their own.IMO. Yes these laws even exist in the northeast. It is federal. And in the right-to-work states I suppose they get everything the union bargained for but don’t have to pay dues similar to government handout people’s I assume. They sit there and take everything the union negotiated for them yet keep it all without contributing a dime. Instead of staying home and collecting a government check, they collect a nice fat check from their fellow workers who do contribute. and thenwhine about how bad the union is whilest they live the good life at their union brothers expense. FreeloadersIMO.

 

[human_being]

Again- workers are free to organize, but why does the company have to work with that organization? If the majority want to organize, who protects the right of the minority who in many cases will be forced to join the union or have to seek work elsewhere?
Unions are one of the main reasons US workers have trouble competing with overseas workers, sending more and more jobs to other areas.

It is our system that keeps it that way. we have a system in which a union is voted in by majority vote. I’ve talked with others on this site about it before… There would be another great option but it is not used here…Anybody who wants to be a union member can, regaurdless of employer or majority vote, but discrimination laws would have to be set up. Because if a company would hire these union workers they’d have to go by union rules and payscales with these workers. All places would have to become familiar with union rules under that scenario…Then the minority, be it the pro-unions, or the anti, could have their way…but employers could not discriminate. And I highly doubt that all businessmen would like to go by union rules…yet all prounion people are expected to live with non-union rules and payrates without a majority vote.

Do you ever think about the unfairness in places where somebody may desire to join a union but not be allowed…what about these minorities who may have lost a union organising campain…if the union is voted out, these pro-union people who are the minority do not get to go union so why is it that I always hear about the non-union people who don’t want to be in the union but lost the vote and now have to work in a union shop?..and I’d almost gaurentee the life for the pro-union people who lost the vote and remain at a nonunion shop’s life would be more hell than the other way around.

 

[human_being]

I actually find one of the replies in the Comments section for this article more accurate than what the large number --cough,cough-- of thirteen Catholic “scholars” say:

In my region, it’s the unions (their representatives) that are the bullies, the aggressors, the exploiters, the manipulators, while Management cowers. It is the unions that have powerful friends in the press. It is unions which have an overwhelming and *de facto *domination in any locale and regarding any topic that is PC.

This is a smokescreen. The government watches trade unions a billion times more than the corporate world…You can find out exactly how much a union donates to a politician. The reps are not asllowed to hang with organised criminals and are caught and banned quite regularly…there are no laws like that for businessmen…they can associate with mobsters if they want to…they can donate to this group and that political guy without registering it…they can donate billions in all kinds of secretive ways and never have to report it…Does a businessman have to report that they donate to think tanks such as -right-to-work foundation or heritage foundation or any other groups who lobby for them? I don’t think so…but lobbying is done throught these think tanks for high paying members…And I think they can hide it if they want…The unions are watched very,very carefully by the feds…Yes their are and have been soime bad apples but so to does the business world have them with less regs…Remember Hoffa? he wasn’t allowed back…but if a businessman does the same things he can always be welcomed back with open arms…mob buddies or not.

 

[Elizabeth502]

HB, you’re talking about legally prosecutable actions. Instead, I’m talking about psychological intimidation so powerful that it violates the Fifth Commandment. The U.S. Gov’t has no statutes forbidding that. Individual companies/corporations could go through the trouble of adjudicating against a hostile atmosphere nevertheless, but that is time-consuming and expensive.

I’m just making the counterpoint about mortal sin. In my region, I will repeat: the mortal sins in the union activity appear to be committed by those representing unions, not representing management. Unions rule here. Everyone else shuts up.

 

[Aquinas62]

What non-management who don’t like unions? They keep sending protesters to the business I work, and we’re all part time. Yes unions served a very beneficial and great purpose 60-100 years ago and I appreciate the work those men did, but now they (union leaders) just try to exploit businesses and people as much as possible to make money. My mother, working in a hospital, had steel workers union members show up to recruit people. If hospital workers are qualified to join the steel union, then there’s a problem.

I agree, Just look at the UAW… they extorted unsustainable contracts from GM and Chrysler and when the companies could not compete, drove them into bankruptcy and with the help of the Government, now owns those companys… the people who invested in those companies, many of whom are wage earners, lost their investments.

is this also a mortal sin? union greed???