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dcointin

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I was considering the idea of a future Catholic/Orthodox reunion, and one common complaint that I’ve heard on this forum is that the rights, traditions, independence, etc. of the Sui Uris churches have been compromised in different ways since their union with the Catholic Church. I admit that I know very little about the histories of these churches, so I was hoping to learn more about this from you. I am interested in knowing what reunions have looked like historically (since this is the best indicator of what future reunions would look like), and in particular if the Catholic Church has abided by the terms of the reunions.

Would you say that the Catholic Church has broken the union agreements in any way? If so how, and please be as specific and provide any relevant examples. If not, please say so as well. Thank you!
 
Don, these are some great questions. The best thing to do would be to start by reading the original treatise of the Union of Brest. This is the agreement of union written by the Ukrainian Church sometime in the 16th Century. I’m sure someone here has a link to it. When you read the agreement and look at the current state of the Ukrainian Church (not saying it is all bad), you’ll see that the agreement hasn’t been completely lived up to. That being said, that’s not necessarily the fault of the Papacy. There are many historical and political (secular politics, not just Church politics) factors that have contributed to the Latinization of certain parts of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. I actually have an entire paper written on this for my Church history class. If you are interested I can e-mail it to you.

As Cyril Korolevsky pointed out in his timely and prophetic polemic “Uniatism”, the Pope of Rome has pretty much consistently condemned any formal attempt at Latinization throughout the history of all the Byzantine Churches in communion with Rome. The primary fault for Latinization lay on the shoulders of the “uniates” (here meant in the derogatory sense), who, among other things, believe that Catholicism and “Roman” are synonymous. The perspective is that the Byzantine or other Eastern/Oriental ritual traditions are maintained as a concession to those who simply cannot let go of them and become “real Catholics”. Again, this is NOT a position that has ever been endorsed by Rome itself, but is the opinion of the more “Latin”-minded of the Eastern Catholics.

Rome itself has always encouraged the Eastern/Oriental Churches to maintain the fulness of their own particular ritual, theological, disciplinary, etc. traditions.

The Ukrainians, however, are simply one example, and only one among the several Byzantine Churches at that. The Melkites actually have a very different story, and one that is extremely fascinating. I’ll refer you here to Korolevsky’s “History of the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarchate”. According to him, and others I’ve read as well, there was never a clear sense of schism in Antioch. Antioch itself often acted as a mediator between Rome and Constantinople after the 1054 Schism. It wasn’t until 1724 that we see a definitive split and the formation of the two patriarchates of the Byzantine tradition in that area, the Melkite Greek Catholics and the Antiochian Greek Orthodox.

The Italo-Byzantines were themselves never out of communion with Rome. Sadly, however, I have no clue as to any of their history.
 
Please do email that paper, I would love to read it. My problem is that I don’t know first hand what the situation in churches such as the Ukranian Catholic Church are like, so I don’t know how to compare it to the original union agreements. I will definitely look up the Union of Brest though, and would like to hear from any Ukranian Catholics (Alexander? /poke) to hear their perspective.
 
I’ll try to e-mail that paper to you tomorrow. It’s primarily concerned with the liturgical reforms of Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytsky, but in order to get to that I had to summarize a good deal of Ukrainian Catholic history. You can be the judge of my success or failure. 😃

I do strongly recommend “Uniatism” by Cyril Korolevsky as a nice short introduction to the situation of Eastern Catholics. It’s available from ecpubs.com. It’s a great and easy read. I’ve read it a couple of times now, and am due for another reading. I also recommend his “History of the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarchate” and “Metropolitan Andrew”. Both of those, although multi-volume, are great reads. “Uniatism” does suffer to some extent from the same attitude he condemns, but for the time in which it was written, it was quite revolutionary, much akin to today’s “Zoghby Initiative”. 👍
 
As Cyril Korolevsky pointed out in his timely and prophetic polemic “Uniatism”, the Pope of Rome has pretty much consistently condemned any formal attempt at Latinization throughout the history of all the Byzantine Churches in communion with Rome. The primary fault for Latinization lay on the shoulders of the “uniates” (here meant in the derogatory sense), who, among other things, believe that Catholicism and “Roman” are synonymous. The perspective is that the Byzantine or other Eastern/Oriental ritual traditions are maintained as a concession to those who simply cannot let go of them and become “real Catholics”. Again, this is NOT a position that has ever been endorsed by Rome itself, but is the opinion of the more “Latin”-minded of the Eastern Catholics.

Rome itself has always encouraged the Eastern/Oriental Churches to maintain the fulness of their own particular ritual, theological, disciplinary, etc. traditions.

.
Awright. I will have to disagree. The primary fault for latinizations cannot be laid at the doors of the heads of Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome. One need only look at the significant misunderstandings the Roman Catholic Church in North America had on first encountering Ukrainian/Ruthenian Catholics at the turn of the 19th Century when they emigrated to North America from the old country. “Married Priests: What is this?”, seemed a quite common reaction among the Roman Catholic clergy. There was discrimination, which explains why, for instance, roughly half the Ukrainian Orthodox population out west in Canada can be traced back to originally Ukrainian Catholic families from the old country who had difficulties convincing RCs in Canada of their traditions and rite.

Did this simply occur in the past and is it done with? No; 20 years ago there was a major disagreement in my eparchy of Toronto when the Vatican became involved in the appointment of a new Bishop for our eparchy. The previous bishop had ordained married men, which was and is his position’s prerogative. He was also a strong supporter of the Ukrainian Catholic Church’s right (it is the largest Eastern Catholic Church in the world in numbers) to a Patriarchate. At one point, after Ukraine became independent, some of these candidates for the priesthood, I believe, had to travel to the territory of the old country to be ordained for certain, I am quite sure, though I was young at the time. This had nothing to do with the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, and everything to do with what seemed required by Rome and “latinizations” if one wishes to call misunderstanding the tradition of allowing the ordination of married men a “latinization”.

Metropolitan Sheptytsky of blessed memory in the 1930s and 1940s attempted to cut the “latinizations” out. This legacy was to be continued after Cardinal Josyp Slipyj was released from the Soviet Gulag to the West in the 1960s. Suddenly, for instance in North America, traditional iconostases started going up in Ukrainian Catholic Churches, and communion rails out. Standing, not kneeling, etc.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church was a church of the catacombs during Soviet oppression. During this time, Cardinal Slipyj had proclaimed a Patriarchate (independent governing structure) for the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Such status was never de jure recognized by the Pope, as many of the prelates in the Vatican’s Secretary of State practiced Ostpolitik with Soviet Moscow at the time. The thinking was always once Ukraine becomes free, the Ukrainian Church will be granted its own Patriarchate (as many less numerous Eastern Catholic churches have) as the lack of ecclessial territory always seemed an excuse. Well Ukraine has been independent since 1991. Is there a Patriarchate for our Church? No. Is it entitled to one by right, especially given how many martyrs the Ukrainian Catholic Church gave in the 20th Century. Absolutely.

When the Iron Curtain fell, what befuddled many Ukrainian Catholics even more was that dioceses were created for Roman Catholicism throughout Ukraine, without even taking into account that the Ukrainian Catholic Church was to create eparchies there, since there certainly were faithful there.

Brest? The Ukrainian Catholic Catechism I believe will come out next year. I believe some issues of theology - purgatory, original sin - might be emphasized differently and more in line with Brest than they are in the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church but, and both our Cardinal and Rome have said, this is to be encouraged as different emphases on theological points are not mutually exclusive but may indeed be complementary.

Awright, just my thoughts. I haven’t posted here for some months until yesterday. 🙂 I may go back to hibernating. 🙂
 
O.P. here is a link to a book edited in the 1980s by a professor at the University of Toronto (when the Ukrainian Catholic Church was still illegal in Ukraine, and the Soviet Union still standing) about the aforesaid late Metropolitan of the Ukrainian Catholic Church Andrei Sheptytsky. It is called Morality and Reality. I have the hardcover but it looks like google books has good excerpts. Metropolitan Sheptytsky’s life encompassed much of the religious and political and social struggle of the Ukrainian Catholic Church and its faithful in the 20th Century. One of the said chapters in the book is written by the then Ukrainian Catholic bishop, now Cardinal, Lubomyr Husar.

You may want to give some of the interesting chapters a read.

books.google.ca/books?id=TmXYeKOISCoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Morality+and+Reality&hl=en&ei=KtvMTJOeH9KSnwf2ttQm&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Sorry, one follow-up to Phillip’s post. It is true that some of the bishops in the Ukrainian Catholic Church did indeed enforce and propagate latinizations, such as the late Servant of God Bishop Khomyshyn of Stanyslaviv. But one has to ask oneself when during this time in the far past did the Roman Catholic Church ever forcefully say no. In my opinion, had there not been this feeling of religiously and politically being second-class Catholics to Roman Catholics in the old Austria-Hungary and interwar Poland (and there was political and religious discrimination by Roman Catholics, hierarchy included), perhaps this desire for latinizations by some hierarchs may have never been. Today’s situation is different of course.

Anyway, Phillip, you are the man that wrote the paper, so I may be wrong in some places, so my apologies for any disagreements, but this is my understanding. 🙂
 
Hi KyivAndrew 👋

It’s always a pleasure to see you on here, and your presence has been much missed.

Thanks for your posts. I will, in short, have to both agree and disagree with you. On reviewing the paper I wrote I realized that one can look at three things for latinizations encouraged by Rome in the Eastern Churches, the Ukrainians and other Ruthenian Churches especially. First there is what Rome says; secondly what Rome does; thirdly, pressure from Roman Catholics, not Rome.

As far as what Rome has said on the official level, from what I’ve read it has said nothing except to encourage Eastern Christians to return to their authentic heritage while at the same time remaining in communion with Rome.

The actions of Rome, however, have sent quite another message. It seems to me that this is primarily what you are concerned with. In saying one thing, Rome has often done the opposite. There is one instance where Rome released a document calling all the Eastern Churches to return to their authentic heritage. The Ukrainian hierarchy complained and Rome proceeded to say that the document didn’t apply to them (or to the rest of the Eastern Christian world for that matter). I can see now, after also discussing this very same topic with dcointin, that I’m going to have to go back and look at my original sources for more details. 🤓

Finally there is the issue of pressure from Roman Catholics themselves, not from Rome. This, it seems to me, has been the primary cause of the latinization of many an Eastern Catholic Church, particularly the diaspora here in the States. But I recall that in Ukraine itself many Eastern Catholics were martyred by their Roman (Polish) Catholic brethren simply for seeking to return to their roots. This was tied more in to government politics than anything. Those who “looked too Orthodox” were suspected of being “Muscovites” or “Russofiles” and were subsequently killed under suspicion of espionage. The same held true for Ukrainian Catholics who heavily Latinized their Church to “prove” it was Catholic. The Russians suspected them of espionage and of being supporters of the Polish government, and subsequently killed them. So the Ukrainian and other Ruthenian Churches were really stuck between a rock and a hard place.

So between getting mixed signals from Rome and the political pressure from Polish Catholics and Russian Orthodox, I think one can hardly fault any of the Ukrainian/Ruthenian Catholic hierarchy and lay faithful for any of the Latinizations that crept in over time. But, given this same situation, it makes the actions of Metropolitan Sheptytsky to delatinize the Ukrainian Catholic Church all the more heroic and admirable. Truly he was an amazing man, and I hope that he is soon universally recognized as a great saint (as I am sure he is already recognized as such among the Ukrainians).
 
Yes, there are multiple sources for Latinization in the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church.

There probably would not be a UGCC were it not for the situation the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was in under the Kingdom of Poland where Orthodox bishops were appointed directly by the Polish King. And also where the Patriarch of Constantinople had limited influence and who, as a result, appointed lay people to oversee their bishops - much to the bishops’ chagrin.

Then there was the overwhelming strength of the Jesuit schools in Europe and everyone wanted to attend a Jesuit or Catholic university with its resultant Latinist influence.

Even the Orthodox Church was heavily Latinized and Latin catechism models were used, together with the borrowing of Latin devotions etc.

Even when the Orthodox became Eastern Catholics, they were discriminated against and looked on with suspicion by the RC’s. The three-fingered Sign of the Cross was called the “schismatic Sign,” bearded priests with long-sleeved robes were frowned upon (the Poles held two local synods condemning the cultural influence of the “Uniates” on their RC seminarians . . . Fr. Ireney Nazarko OSBM “Kyivan and Galician Metropolitans”)

My point is simply that we can have no true appreciation for the situation surrounding the Union of Brest without an in-depth socio-political analysis, and not only a theological-ritual one.

Alex
 
Yes, there are multiple sources for Latinization in the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church.

There probably would not be a UGCC were it not for the situation the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was in under the Kingdom of Poland where Orthodox bishops were appointed directly by the Polish King. And also where the Patriarch of Constantinople had limited influence and who, as a result, appointed lay people to oversee their bishops - much to the bishops’ chagrin.

Then there was the overwhelming strength of the Jesuit schools in Europe and everyone wanted to attend a Jesuit or Catholic university with its resultant Latinist influence.

Even the Orthodox Church was heavily Latinized and Latin catechism models were used, together with the borrowing of Latin devotions etc.

Even when the Orthodox became Eastern Catholics, they were discriminated against and looked on with suspicion by the RC’s. The three-fingered Sign of the Cross was called the “schismatic Sign,” bearded priests with long-sleeved robes were frowned upon (the Poles held two local synods condemning the cultural influence of the “Uniates” on their RC seminarians . . . Fr. Ireney Nazarko OSBM “Kyivan and Galician Metropolitans”)

My point is simply that we can have no true appreciation for the situation surrounding the Union of Brest without an in-depth socio-political analysis, and not only a theological-ritual one.

Alex
Very true.
 
Wasn’t the reason for the Pope’s denying an Ukranian Patriarchate political? I understand that by doing so, Russia ( and the Russian Orthodox Church ) would expel any Catholic Church from Russia since the Russian Orthodox Church considers the Ukranian Church part of it and will absorb all of it.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Wasn’t the reason for the Pope’s denying an Ukranian Patriarchate political? I understand that by doing so, Russia ( and the Russian Orthodox Church ) would expel any Catholic Church from Russia since the Russian Orthodox Church considers the Ukranian Church part of it and will absorb all of it.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
In history, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was never a part of the Russian Orthodox Church. Only after the forcible liquidation of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in 1946 after Stalin had taken control of all Ukraine and executed most of our Church’s hierarchy, was the Ukrainian Catholic Church forced into Russian Orthodoxy at the Soviet Secret Police’s gunpoint. A pseudo-synod enforced by the Stalinist Soviet Secret Police and the-then state-sanctioned Russian Orthodox Church swallowed up what was left of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, leaving many believers to practice in secret. So the only way the Russian Orthodox Church can understand the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church to “belong” to it is if one accepts a K.G.B. enforced church liquidation of our Church in 1946. The Ukrainian Church is not part of Moscow’s patrimony.

Heck, even the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in North America (canonical under the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople) doesn’t recognize the Russian Orthodox Church’s take-over of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1686 from Constantinople. For example, the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine offered to one Orthodox denomination in Canada a relic of the Baptizer of Kyivan-Rus’, St. Volodymyr, for pilgrimage. When the Ukrainian Orthodox hierarchy in Canada read some of the literature provided by the Russian Orthodox Church accompanying the relic, this is how they responded:

uocc.ca/en-ca/news/releases/Relics%20of%20St.%20Volodymyr%20letter%20to%20web-page.pdf

Here is an interview by the National Catholic Reporter’s John Allen with Father Robert Taft on the issue of a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate and Russian Orthodoxy from 2004 in which the Jesuit Father is quite blunt:

[natcath.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm](http://www.natcath.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm)

In the end, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is a threat to nobody really. It does not have any state support or sanction, only the support of its faithful. That’s it. I suppose the Ukrainian Church just wants its freedom. That’s it. It is not out to get any Orthodox Church. It just wants to survive and develop after years in the catacombs. Period.
 
For example, the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine offered to one Orthodox denomination in Canada a relic of the Baptizer of Kyivan-Rus’, St. Volodymyr, for pilgrimage. When the Ukrainian Orthodox hierarchy in Canada read some of the literature provided by the Russian Orthodox Church accompanying the relic, this is how they responded:

uocc.ca/en-ca/news/releases/Relics%20of%20St.%20Volodymyr%20letter%20to%20web-page.pdf

Here is an interview by the National Catholic Reporter’s John Allen with Father Robert Taft on the issue of a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate and Russian Orthodoxy from 2004 in which the Jesuit Father is quite blunt:

[natcath.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm](http://www.natcath.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm)

In the end, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is a threat to nobody really. It does not have any state support or sanction, only the support of its faithful. That’s it. I suppose the Ukrainian Church just wants its freedom. That’s it. It is not out to get any Orthodox Church. It just wants to survive and develop after years in the catacombs. Period.
Thank you for both these links.
I think Fr. Taft is always blunt in such conversations. I found this interview interesting, to say the least.
 
In history, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was never a part of the Russian Orthodox Church. Only after the forcible liquidation of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in 1946 after Stalin had taken control of all Ukraine and executed most of our Church’s hierarchy, was the Ukrainian Catholic Church forced into Russian Orthodoxy at the Soviet Secret Police’s gunpoint. A pseudo-synod enforced by the Stalinist Soviet Secret Police and the-then state-sanctioned Russian Orthodox Church swallowed up what was left of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, leaving many believers to practice in secret. So the only way the Russian Orthodox Church can understand the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church to “belong” to it is if one accepts a K.G.B. enforced church liquidation of our Church in 1946. The Ukrainian Church is not part of Moscow’s patrimony.

Heck, even the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in North America (canonical under the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople) doesn’t recognize the Russian Orthodox Church’s take-over of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1686 from Constantinople. For example, the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine offered to one Orthodox denomination in Canada a relic of the Baptizer of Kyivan-Rus’, St. Volodymyr, for pilgrimage. When the Ukrainian Orthodox hierarchy in Canada read some of the literature provided by the Russian Orthodox Church accompanying the relic, this is how they responded:

uocc.ca/en-ca/news/releases/Relics%20of%20St.%20Volodymyr%20letter%20to%20web-page.pdf

Here is an interview by the National Catholic Reporter’s John Allen with Father Robert Taft on the issue of a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate and Russian Orthodoxy from 2004 in which the Jesuit Father is quite blunt:

[natcath.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm](http://www.natcath.org/ma(name removed by moderator)age/specialdocuments/taft.htm)

In the end, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is a threat to nobody really. It does not have any state support or sanction, only the support of its faithful. That’s it. I suppose the Ukrainian Church just wants its freedom. That’s it. It is not out to get any Orthodox Church. It just wants to survive and develop after years in the catacombs. Period.
Thank you for the information. Truthfully, I’ve never paid much attention to the situation of the Ukranian Church, nor for that matter any of the non-Latin Churches. I apologize to all and will pay attention from now on. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Thank you for both these links.
I think Fr. Taft is always blunt in such conversations. I found this interview interesting, to say the least.
Yes, some of the words are strong in the links but I posted just to show some of the thoughts and emotions involved.
 
Thank you for the information. Truthfully, I’ve never paid much attention to the situation of the Ukranian Church, nor for that matter any of the non-Latin Churches. I apologize to all and will pay attention from now on. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
Nothing to apologize for Javl 🙂 Thanks for asking.

God Bless,

Andrew 🙂
 
Nothing to apologize for Javl 🙂 Thanks for asking.

God Bless,

Andrew 🙂
Thank you for your kindness, but, being a Catholic, I should be constantly aware as to what occurs within the Church and also what happens to our separated brethren, whether or not it affects the Church. I pray for all and for guidance. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI ;signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
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