Uniquely Protestant Beliefs or Practices in the Early Church

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I thought “Whose Kingdom shall have no end” was against Millennialism.

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach millennialism. My point was that this teaching was known in the early Church. I’m not sure how prevalent it was, but it is a teaching from the early Church that is shared by some protestants but not by Catholics.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach millennialism. My point was that this teaching was known in the early Church. I’m not sure how prevalent it was, but it is a teaching from the early Church that is shared by some protestants but not by Catholics.

Oh, I see. Well, duh, there were lots of heresies floating around the early Church that various Protestants besides Lutherans hold today.

Gnosticism, Manichaeism, no forgiveness of additional sins after salvation and Judaizers-ism (what’s the word for this?) are all still around in various Protestants denominations.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Oh, I see. Well, duh, there were lots of heresies floating around the early Church that various Protestants besides Lutherans hold today.

Gnosticism, Manichaeism, no forgiveness of additional sins after salvation and Judaizers-ism (what’s the word for this?) are all still around in various Protestants denominations.

Those beliefs were considered heresies, and they still are by the the vast majority of protestants. I don’t think they can be considered to be the beliefs of the early Church.

I was looking for beliefs of the early Christian Church that are accepted by protestants by rejected by Catholics. Millennialism seems to be one example of such a belief, although I don’t know how widely this belief is held today.

We can find a few that go the other way, ie. accepted by Catholics but rejected by most protestants.

Millennialism seems to be one example of such a belief.

 

[Anna_Scott]

**Some of the Spiritual gifts are embraced in the Protestant Sector: prophecy, healing, working of miracles, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in tongues (uttering mysteries in the Spirit), interpretation of tongues.

Do Catholics embrace any of these gifts? I haven’t heard much about this from Catholic Forum Members.**

Romans Chapter 12 (ESV):
4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthians Chapter 12:
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
**
1 Corinthians Chapter 12: **
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
**
1 Corinthians Chapter 14:**
1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now** I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy**. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

1 Corinthians Chapter 14:
13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Anna

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

**Some of the Spiritual gifts are embraced in the Protestant Sector: prophecy, healing, working of miracles, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in tongues (uttering mysteries in the Spirit), interpretation of tongues.

Do Catholics embrace any of these gifts? I haven’t heard much about this from Catholic Forum Members.**

Absolutely!

religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm

Here’s a balanced look at the movement with some words of caution which I think are reasonable.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Absolutely!

religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm

Here’s a balanced look at the movement with some words of caution which I think are reasonable.

The read the article.* It states, "Many believe that this Charismatic Renewal is a direct result of Pope John XXIII prayer at Vatican II, “O Holy Spirit… pour forth the fullness of your gifts… Renew your wonders in this day as by a new Pentecost.”*

According to the article, this Catholic Charismatic movement had its beginnings in 1967.

That means Protestants received this outpouring of the Spirit, before the Catholic Church. This seems rather odd, since the Catholic Church claims to be the one true authoritative church.

So, I ask the following:

Was there no such experience of spiritual gifts among Catholics prior to the Charismatic movement’s beginnings in 1967?

If not, why did Protestants receive the gifts of the Spirit before the Catholic Church?

Have Popes of the past condemned or condoned these spiritual gifts?

Wouldn’t this new movement within Catholicism be seen as a break from tradition?

Do you have any quotes from Cathechism/ECF regarding the Spiritual gifts?

The article discussed a number of “problems” seen by the Catholic Church:

"Problems?:

Many!. Even Jesus had problems with his chosen 12!. Remember Judas, and Peter, and the 11 at Calvary?… clean waters are always moving, even with waves; calmed waters become putrid ponds.

Her are some of the many problems:

1- Simplicity: Some Charismatics are not well instructed in the Catholic Church treasures, they live like the first Christians who didn't had the advantage of the doctrines of the Church for 2000 years, and some of them don't know the Catechism, not even how to pray the Our Father or the Hail Mary, even when you see them preaching with enthusiasm and effectiveness… the priests are really badly needed in the Prayer Groups. Most Charismatics are humble enough to receive instructions, and very thankful for them.

2- "Amnesia" of the Blessed Mother: In New York we had the problem that some Charismatics didn't care about Virgin Mary, because the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father were more than enough for them... we started to emphasize the fact that the Mother of Jesus was the "first Charismatic" of the New Testament, as commented above, and now most of the Hispanic Prayer Groups start their prayer meeting with the prayer of the Rosary, praise the Lord!.

3- Disobedience: Very few Charismatics think they don't have to listen to the priests because the Holy Spirit talks to them directly, and that's enough for them and the best. And usually, a good explanation is received humbly and with gratefulness: The Holy Spirit, all along the Bible, uses people to guide and instruct us: Moses, David, Isaiah, the Apostles, the Church… obedience is love… "Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me" (Lk.10:16)… but priests are very much needed to take care of errors like this as soon as possible.

4- The Hierarchy: Another not usual error, but that happens: "We don't need bosses!". The one person I encounter with this error, was very grateful when I explained to him that the Spirit usually acts through the one in charge, through the legitimate authority: In Cana, Jesus didn't give the wine to the people, but told the servants "to take it to the headwaiter", and the headwaiter was the one who decided what to do with the wine (Jn.2:8). The "headwaiter" was representing the Holy Spirit there. In the family, the "headwaiter" is the husband. In the Prayer Meeting, the leader. In the Church, the priest, or the pastor, or the bishop… we should never do anything without the approval of the "headwaiter". We should do as Jesus did…

5- Another error: "I only need Jesus. Religion doesn't save, nor any church, only Jesus". I told someone with this error that the relation with Jesus, that's religion, because "religion" is the relation with man with God, and Jesus is God, as he well believed. And then, I told him that Jesus in person did not brought him to the Prayer Group, it was a relative or a friend, and he is representing the Church, he is the Church in action!… and Jesus did not baptized him, nor instructed him, but a priest or a laymen, representing the Church. Jesus left us His Church to proclaim the Gospel. If you would have lived in Africa, may be you would had never even heard about Jesus, because the Church is not there…

6- Some Protestant errors may infiltrate the Prayer Group: About the Pope, the Eucharist, Virgin Mary, Purgatory, Baptism of children… and any of these errors should be tackled immediately, because the Charismatic is usually open, until he thinks of himself as an "elder" or a "somebody".

7- Money: The Charismatics are usually very generous, and they want to buy all the tapes and material they can to learn more about Christ. And a temptation for any Charismatic leader is to set up his or her own Group, to "administer" by himself the money that comes on every service, without any other church authority to supervise him…. watch out!.

8- Within the Prayer Groups: Envy or jealousy: A person has envy or jealousy because other has a Charisma he would like to have: Healing, prophecy, speaking, singing...

9- The Charismatic Renewal is a Movement, not an Organization or Society, with religious and laymen leaders and directors, but without president, secretary, etc.... and the exercise of any kind of authority has been often the root of failures in the Renewal Movement.

9- The 7 weeks Seminary in the Spirit. See above "the problem".

The Charismatic Renewal Movement has produce myriad groups, good preachers and healers, and a few near-cult offshoots. Most Charismatics, however are orthodox in doctrine and emphasize activity within the Church, and under its legitimate authority and teachings. But priests and deacons and nuns are very much needed in the Prayer Groups to show many in the Charismatic Renewal how to integrate their new enthusiasm for religious experience blessed by the gifts of the Spirit into the faith and practice of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church."

What happens if a Catholic receives a true revelation in the “Spirit” that contradicts the Catholic Church? This is quite possible. I would guess they would be told they did not really receive such a truth.

This is a very interesting development within Catholicism, especially due to the fact that revelations, and gifts of the Spirit, involve the individual and God. Catholics are not allowed private interpretation of Scripture. So, receiving private revelations seems very risky for Catholics.

Anna

 

[GeorgeSword]

I’m not too sure about the modern charismatic movement, to be honest. I believe that God continues to bestow His miracles upon people, but I have doubts as to how wide spread it is. Many saints throughout the ages have spoken in tongues unknown to them so as to communicate Christ’s message, however, and done many other miracles, long before Protestantism was even an idea in Martin Luther’s head.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

What happens if a Catholic receives a true revelation in the “Spirit” that contradicts the Catholic Church? This is quite possible. I would guess they would be told they did not really receive such a truth.

This is a very interesting development within Catholicism, especially due to the fact that revelations, and gifts of the Spirit, involve the individual and God. Catholics are not allowed private interpretation of Scripture. So, receiving private revelations seems very risky for Catholics.

Anna

Notice that this is about a renewal, not an origination. The gifts of the spirit have been active in the Church from the beginning, but not always in the same manifestation.

The Holy Spirit is either guiding the Church or it isn’t. I believe that it is.

Therefore, any Catholic who contradicts Church teaching is by definition not being led by the Spirit.

Here’s a good article from Fr. William Most:

The Charismatic Gifts
by Rev. William G. Most

The ordinary charismatic gifts, the invisible gifts that help us fulfill our state in life, are widely given. The extraordinary are given when and to whom the Spirit wills, as St. Paul tells us in 1 Cor 12.11. They are not routine today, though they were in the first generation Church, as we see from 1 Cor 12-14.

Some have claimed that these extraordinary graces are ordinary and were ordinary for the first centuries. But the Patristic texts cited for this view are few. Fairly clear are those of Tertullian (an early pentecostalist who eventually left the Church), St. Hilary, and St. Cyril of Jerusalem. Already by the fourth century, however, St. Augustine had to argue that the accounts of miracles in the early Church were not mere fables. In the East, St. John Chrysostom also noted that the age of the charismatic gifts as a regular occurence had long since ended. It is clear from the history of the early Church that as soon as Christians could point to the rapid spread of the Faith and the witness of martyrs in order to make converts, God began to give the charismatic gifts less frequently—they were always by their nature extraordinary, and long before the time of Augustine and Chrysostom, they were no longer necessary on a large scale.

Thus, it is not true that extraordinary charismatic gifts are simply actualizations–putting to work–of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that all Catholics have. Rember, the special charismatic things belong to one category, the seven Gifts to another . One cannot suppose graces from one side of this divide will actualize those from the other side.

Still further, the possession of extraordinary charismatic favors does not even prove those who have them are in the state of grace. We think of the frightening words of Our Lord Himself in Mt 7. 22-23: “Many will say to me on that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name cast out devils, and have done many marvels in your name? And then I will admit to them: I never knew you: depart from me you workers of iniquity.”

Vatican II, Lumen gentium 12 said of the extraordinary gifts: “. . . they are not to be rashly sought, nor should one presumptuously expect of them the fruits of the apostolic works; but the judgment as to whether or not they are genuine, and as to their ordered use pertains to those who are in charge in the Church . . . .” When these gifts are used with careful discernment of spirits and obedience, they are “fitting and useful for the needs of the Church” (Ibid.)

---

Electronic text (c) Copyright 1997 EWTN. All rights reserved.

 

[TheosisM]

The read the article.* It states, "Many believe that this Charismatic Renewal is a direct result of Pope John XXIII prayer at Vatican II, “O Holy Spirit… pour forth the fullness of your gifts… Renew your wonders in this day as by a new Pentecost.”*

According to the article, this Catholic Charismatic movement had its beginnings in 1967.

That means Protestants received this outpouring of the Spirit, before the Catholic Church. This seems rather odd, since the Catholic Church claims to be the one true authoritative church.

So, I ask the following:

Was there no such experience of spiritual gifts among Catholics prior to the Charismatic movement’s beginnings in 1967?

If not, why did Protestants receive the gifts of the Spirit before the Catholic Church?

Have Popes of the past condemned or condoned these spiritual gifts?

Wouldn’t this new movement within Catholicism be seen as a break from tradition?

Do you have any quotes from Cathechism/ECF regarding the Spiritual gifts?

The origin of the Charismatic Catholic Movement in recent history does not mean that the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit were not received prior to 1967. The gifts of the Spirit are not limited to a Movement. The CCM is not a break with Sacred Tradition, but is an expression of the Catholic faith. The CCM is not defined by the gifts of the Spirit, though of course they are a manifestation of the Movement. Therefore, it is incorrect to state that Protestants were receiving the outpouring of the Spirit before the Catholic Church, since this movement only began in 1967. Again, the outpouring of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, are not limited to the Charismatic Catholic Movement.

Of course there were experiences of the gifts of the Spirit prior to 1967. Healings, prophecy, discerning spirits, miracles, etc. have always been a part of the Catholic Church. Many canonized saints also had the gift of prophecy, for example. And healings are well known as well.

What happens if a Catholic receives a true revelation in the “Spirit” that contradicts the Catholic Church? This is quite possible. I would guess they would be told they did not really receive such a truth.

Of course that is the case. Do you believe that someone can receive a revelation that contradicts the Truth? What if someone receives a revelation that Jesus Christ’s resurrection did not happen? Clearly, revelations have to be discerned as to their source, and if they contradict the universally revealed Truth, then the source cannot be God.

This is a very interesting development within Catholicism, especially due to the fact that revelations, and gifts of the Spirit, involve the individual and God. Catholics are not allowed private interpretation of Scripture. So, receiving private revelations seems very risky for Catholics.

Anna

Again, this is not a development within Catholicism, as the gifts of the Spirit have been available and manifested in Catholics since the Church began. I do not see the equivalence between no private interpretation of scripture (a phrase which would of course have to be defined) and receiving private revelations.

 

[Hisalone]

Spiritual gifts?

Could you be more specific? I assume know that the Catholic Church contains tens of millions of Charismatics.

I’m not sure what your point is.

Not only spiritual gifts but spiritual gifts is operation.
There has been an explosion in the last hndred years. Catholic Charismatics are an off shout of the Charmatic movement. I know you want to claim that there are no beliefs and practices that the 1st century church had that Catholics dont have. I never saw prophesy in action until I went to a Carismatic Church or speaking in tongues I did know a saintly Catholic priest who had the gift of word of knowledge.
It is the Penticostals and Charismatics that have carried these into the present day.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I read the article.* It states, "Many believe that this Charismatic Renewal is a direct result of Pope John XXIII prayer at Vatican II, “O Holy Spirit… pour forth the fullness of your gifts… Renew your wonders in this day as by a new Pentecost.”*

According to the article, this Catholic Charismatic movement had its beginnings in 1967.

That means Protestants received this outpouring of the Spirit, before the Catholic Church. This seems rather odd, since the Catholic Church claims to be the one true authoritative church.

So, I ask the following:

Was there no such experience of spiritual gifts among Catholics prior to the Charismatic movement’s beginnings in 1967?

If not, why did Protestants receive the gifts of the Spirit before the Catholic Church?

Have Popes of the past condemned or condoned these spiritual gifts?

Wouldn’t this new movement within Catholicism be seen as a break from tradition?

Do you have any quotes from Cathechism/ECF regarding the Spiritual gifts?

. . . .This is a very interesting development within Catholicism, especially due to the fact that revelations, and gifts of the Spirit, involve the individual and God. Catholics are not allowed private interpretation of Scripture. So, receiving private revelations seems very risky for Catholics. Anna

The origin of the Charismatic Catholic Movement in recent history does not mean that the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit were not received prior to 1967. The gifts of the Spirit are not limited to a Movement. The CCM is not a break with Sacred Tradition, but is an expression of the Catholic faith.

The CCM is not defined by the gifts of the Spirit, though of course they are a manifestation of the Movement. Therefore, it is incorrect to state that Protestants were receiving the outpouring of the Spirit before the Catholic Church, since this movement only began in 1967. Again, the outpouring of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, are not limited to the Charismatic Catholic Movement.

Of course there were experiences of the gifts of the Spirit prior to 1967. Healings, prophecy, discerning spirits, miracles, etc. have always been a part of the Catholic Church. Many canonized saints also had the gift of prophecy, for example. And healings are well known as well.

I am not denying miracles and prophecies within the Catholic Church.

However, the Catholic Charismatic Movement really appears to be something very different–primarily because of the questions it raises regarding the relationship and interaction with God as an individual vs. the relationship and interaction with God through the authority of the Catholic Church.

What happens if a Catholic receives a true revelation in the “Spirit” that contradicts the Catholic Church? This is quite possible. I would guess they would be told they did not really receive such a truth.

Of course that is the case. Do you believe that someone can receive a revelation that contradicts the Truth? What if someone receives a revelation that Jesus Christ’s resurrection did not happen? Clearly, revelations have to be discerned as to their source, and if they contradict the universally revealed Truth, then the source cannot be God.

I agree that some beliefs are from a source other than God. We can be fooled by the “great deceiver.” I’m saying this knowing that Catholics pretty much think Protestants fall under this false source of truth. That would be a topic for another Thread.

Though I have great respect for the Catholic Church, I am not convinced of the authority the Church claims to hold. Otherwise, I would be Catholic. I don’t want to derail the Thread by starting an authority discussion.

My point is that I think it is very possible that an individual Catholic may receive a true revelation from the Holy Spirit that contradicts the Catholic Church. And, yes, I know the claims of the Catholic Church regarding receiving truth through the Holy Spirit as a basis for doctrines of Faith and Morals.

There are already Charismatic Catholics, who have had experiences in “The Spirit,” that had to be swiftly corrected by the CC. The CC must claim the individual to be in error, otherwise there is a risk of crumbling authority within the CC.

The problems outlined in the Article, you cited, demonstrate my point about individual revelation clashing with the authority of the CC.

religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm

These are a few quotes listed as “problems.” They all received swift attention with eloquent explanations from the CC as to the error of the Catholic Charismatics who went astray.

"They began to believe “the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father were more than enough for them.”

“In New York we had the problem that some Charismatics didn’t care about Virgin Mary, because the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father were more than enough for them.”

Disobedience has also been found in the movement, and described as “very few” in the article:

“Very few Charismatics think they don’t have to listen to the priests because the Holy Spirit talks to them directly, and that’s enough for them and the best.”

Problems with “The Hierarchy” have also been encountered:

"Another not usual error, but that happens: “We don’t need bosses!”.

“I only need Jesus. Religion doesn’t save, nor any church, only Jesus”.

The thing I find most interesting, is that some of the Catholic Charismatics are arriving at very “Protestant” conclusions. One of the problems listed is, “Some Protestant errors may infiltrate the Prayer Group.”

When one fully yields to the Holy Spirit; religion and a church’s authority is seen in a very different light.

Anna

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

As opposed to silver chalices and preformed, manufactured wafers, like you and I do.

I’m sure the early church did not use these either, they had actual meals together, not wafers and wine in fancy cups.

I do believe that the Apostles had blowed dried hairdos and snappy white suits like Benny Hinn though. Some historians believe that Peter and Paul had a gospel rock band too.

 

[ncgolf]

What happens if a Catholic receives a true revelation in the “Spirit” that contradicts the Catholic Church? This is quite possible.

How could truth contradict truth.

I would guess they would be told they did not really receive such a truth.

There are many mystics in Catholic history even into the 20th century … Sister Faustina is one of them. One thing these mystics do is engage a spiritual director. These people help distinguish who the “Spirit” may be and give guidance to the receiver.

This is a very interesting development within Catholicism, especially due to the fact that revelations, and gifts of the Spirit, involve the individual and God. Catholics are not allowed private interpretation of Scripture. So, receiving private revelations seems very risky for Catholics.

Well it depends on who’s giving the private revelation. Private revelation is accepted under very strict scrutiny though the faithful are not required to accept these revelations. Many writings from Catholic mystics are available for us to read …i.e. the Interior Castle by St. Theresa of Avila. If you read these you will find no contradiction between her writing and Scripture.

Authentic private revelation will not contradict the Deposit of Faith.

One thing that confuses me about your last bit is private interpretation of Scripture and private revelation … these are 2 entirely different things and it seems you intertwine the 2 when they really should not be.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Not only spiritual gifts but spiritual gifts is operation.
There has been an explosion in the last hndred years. Catholic Charismatics are an off shout of the Charmatic movement. I know you want to claim that there are no beliefs and practices that the 1st century church had that Catholics dont have. I never saw prophesy in action until I went to a Carismatic Church or speaking in tongues I did know a saintly Catholic priest who had the gift of word of knowledge.
It is the Penticostals and Charismatics that have carried these into the present day.

The Catholic Charismatic movement is a renewal movement, but it is not something that was absent in the Church for the past 2000 years, it just was uncommon.

This is not a case of the Catholic Church holding beliefs today that are different from the apostolic Church.

I can cite several doctrinal differences between today’s pentecostals, however, and the apostolic church.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

When one fully yields to the Holy Spirit; religion and a church’s authority is seen in a very different light.

Anna

I disagree.

When one fully yields to the Holy Spirit, one fully yields to his Church.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 17
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

 

[Anna_Scott]

How could truth contradict truth. There are many mystics in Catholic history even into the 20th century … Sister Faustina is one of them. One thing these mystics do is engage a spiritual director. These people help distinguish who the “Spirit” may be and give guidance to the receiver.

As I said before, I am not denying miracles and prophecies within the Catholic Church. I also agree that one must guard against an evil source of revelation, etc. “Distinguishing between spirits” is one of the Spiritual gifts.

Well it depends on who’s giving the private revelation. Private revelation is accepted under very strict scrutiny though the faithful are not required to accept these revelations. Many writings from Catholic mystics are available for us to read …i.e. the Interior Castle by St. Theresa of Avila. If you read these you will find no contradiction between her writing and Scripture.

The strict scrutiny is precisely what I am talking about. A Charismatic Catholic who has an experience “in the Spirit,” must have that experience validated, and even censored by the Catholic Church. You could argue that the CC is simply “distinguishing between spirits.” Perhaps that is the case.

However, I am suggesting that it is possible the CC would guard its authority at the expense acknowledging true individual experiences in the “Spirit.” I really do not expect us to agree on this issue.

Authentic private revelation will not contradict the Deposit of Faith.

I agree that private revelation from God will not contradict God’s truth or the true Deposit of Faith. Our disagreement lies in the claims of authority, by the CC, regarding who holds the true Deposit of Faith

One thing that confuses me about your last bit is private interpretation of Scripture and private revelation … these are 2 entirely different things and it seems you intertwine the 2 when they really should not be.

When I speak of private interpretation, I am speaking of interpreting Scripture through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Isn’t the Holy Spirit involved in private revelation? The two can, indeed, be intertwined.

You did not really respond to the “problems” the CC lists with the Catholic Charismatic Movement.

religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm

These are a few quotes listed as “problems.” They all received swift attention with eloquent explanations from the CC as to the error of the Catholic Charismatics who went astray.

"They began to believe “the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father were more than enough for them.”

“In New York we had the problem that some Charismatics didn’t care about Virgin Mary, because the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father were more than enough for them.”

Disobedience has also been found in the movement, and described as “very few” in the article:

“Very few Charismatics think they don’t have to listen to the priests because the Holy Spirit talks to them directly, and that’s enough for them and the best.”

Problems with “The Hierarchy” have also been encountered:

"Another not usual error, but that happens: “We don’t need bosses!”.

“I only need Jesus. Religion doesn’t save, nor any church, only Jesus”.

The thing I find most interesting, is that some of the Catholic Charismatics are arriving at very “Protestant” conclusions, independently of Protestants.

One of the problems listed is, “Some Protestant errors may infiltrate the Prayer Group.” Perhaps the “Protestant errors” are not errors at all, but results of true experiences with the Holy Spirit

When one fully yields to the Holy Spirit; religion and a church’s authority is seen in a very different light.

Respectfully,
Anna

 

[ncgolf]

The strict scrutiny is precisely what I am talking about. A Charismatic Catholic who has an experience “in the Spirit,” must have that experience validated, and even censored by the Catholic Church. You could argue that the CC is simply “distinguishing between spirits.” Perhaps that is the case.

I do not equate an experience “in the Spirit” and private revelation. I have and am sure many others have had encounters with the HS … it does not have to be tongues or prophecy but in using any of the gifts the HS has bestowed. A true experience will hold up against strict scrutiny … why would it not?

However, I am suggesting that it is possible the CC would guard its authority at the expense acknowledging true individual experiences in the “Spirit.” I really do not expect us to agree on this issue.

You read too much Dan Brown . The Church does acknowledge that one may have these experiences but may choose to not comment or support those experiences but does not say they did not happen they basically leave it as “personal”.

I agree that private revelation from God will not contradict God’s truth or the true Deposit of Faith. Our disagreement lies in the claims of authority, by the CC, regarding who holds the true Deposit of Faith.

Oh well … since the Deposit of Faith is Scripture and Tradition … there is only one.

You did not really respond to the “problems” the CC lists with the Catholic Charismatic Movement.

Those are not official problems but problems listed by the writer I dont even know who to attribute the quotes to. I think the problems can be applied to any group and are not specific to the Charismatic movement.

These are a few quotes listed as “problems.” They all received swift attention with eloquent explanations from the CC as to the error of the Catholic Charismatics who went astray.

What eloquent explanations are you speaking of that can be attributed to the Catholic Church?

"They began to believe “the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father were more than enough for them.”

“In New York we had the problem that some Charismatics didn’t care about Virgin Mary, because the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father were more than enough for them.”

Disobedience has also been found in the movement, and described as “very few” in the article:

“Very few Charismatics think they don’t have to listen to the priests because the Holy Spirit talks to them directly, and that’s enough for them and the best.”

Problems with “The Hierarchy” have also been encountered:

"Another not usual error, but that happens: “We don’t need bosses!”.

“I only need Jesus. Religion doesn’t save, nor any church, only Jesus”.

Again where is a Bishop or Pastor quoted in light of these problems?

The thing I find most interesting, is that some of the Catholic Charismatics are arriving at very “Protestant” conclusions, independently of Protestants.

One of the problems listed is, “Some Protestant errors may infiltrate the Prayer Group.” Perhaps the “Protestant errors” are not errors at all, but results of true experiences with the Holy Spirit

Well they could have happened but whether some truth was revealed is pure speculation.

When one fully yields to the Holy Spirit; religion and a church’s authority is seen in a very different light.

This is a speculative statement insuniating by adhering to religion and are subject to the Church’s authority you have not yielded fully to the HS. Fully yielding to the HS enables one to use the gifts supernaturally so the evidence is by the fruit you are bearing. Speaking in tongues or commenting on the authority of the Pope while under an “experience” does not show evidence of fully submitting to the HS.

 

[Hisalone]

The Catholic Charismatic movement is a renewal movement, but it is not something that was absent in the Church for the past 2000 years, it just was uncommon.

This is not a case of the Catholic Church holding beliefs today that are different from the apostolic Church.

I can cite several doctrinal differences between today’s pentecostals, however, and the apostolic church.

The Catholic Church has had spiritual gifts throughout their history many times with only a small remnant and at times no active spritual gifts are recorded.

The present Catholic Charismatic Renewal is an off shoot of nonCatholic Charismatics:

This new spirit also led Catholics at grass roots level to meet and pray more with their Christian brothers and sisters. It was through these relationships with Pentecostals and Charismatics from other traditions, that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was born.
ccr.org.uk/ccrstart.htm

I again have never ever been to a mass where there was prophesy, never. I have been to a thousand masses. Prophesy was a fairly common occurance in the first century meetings.
I know this is contrary to your predeposed notions of the way things should be but the current renewal Catholics are greatfull to the nonCatholics.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I disagree.

When one fully yields to the Holy Spirit, one fully yields to his Church.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 17
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

I agree that when one fully yields to the Holy Spirit, one fully yields to the Church that Jesus established.

Anna

 

[Luke65]

I again have never ever been to a mass where there was prophesy, never. I have been to a thousand masses. Prophesy was a fairly common occurance in the first century meetings.
I know this is contrary to your predeposed notions of the way things should be but the current renewal Catholics are greatfull to the nonCatholics.

Actually, it’s perfectly consistent with the Word of God:

“Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.” (James 5:7)