Unitarian Christians- true or not true?

[cheese_sdc]

What do you believe?

I’m still working it out. I have much less certainty now than I once did.

Pilate asked this question right before he condemned Jesus.

Yep, and it is a question we all must face.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m still working it out. I have much less certainty now than I once did.

I will pray for you tonight.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m still working it out. I have much less certainty now than I once did.

This prompts a reference to an old post on Facebook that I read by Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong:
facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/731196140248707?stream_ref=10

THE RADICAL AND BIZARRE ALL-TOO-COMMON PROTESTANT “QUEST FOR UNCERTAINTY”
Some Protestants make such a big stinking deal about how Catholics like to have “certainty” and how silly and foolish – almost “infantile” – that supposedly is (as if it were some foreign concept in Scripture). It’s not at all! One anti-Catholic tonight even ridiculously compared this to being nearly mentally ill, or on the path to same, anyway.
I flip that canard around and talk about how many Protestants are on a “quest for uncertainty” that never ends. I have many papers along those lines, because it’s a very common theme. They glory in it. They think it’s great (rather than a tragic scandal) that they can’t figure lots of things out in Christianity and that their sects endlessly contradict each other.
They are forever searching (i.e., those who think like this). I like the treasure hunt as much as the next guy (and I joyously found the pearl of great price in 1990), but God wants us to know the truth, so we can fully live by it, not to spend our whole lives searching, as if faith and spirituality were mere philosophy or a sort of “whodunit” where the (lifelong?) search is for the fullness of Christian truth rather than the murderer.

 

[frobert]

This prompts a reference to an old post on Facebook that I read by Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong:
facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/731196140248707?stream_ref=10

Nice reference but I think you fail to see the irony. While Dave pointed out the foolishness of some Protestants he is quiet as to the foolishness of some Catholics.

Recent polls show that Catholics around the world more liberal than than is ordinarily believed. Surveys in 12 countries with some of the largest Roman Catholic populations around the globe reveal a membership unified in their love of Pope Francis, but in broad disagreement with Catholic doctrine on some key social issues.

From: Univision Poll - poll of more than 12,000 Catholics in 12 countries

78% of Catholics worldwide support contraceptives

30% of Catholics worldwide support SSM

In the US and Europe the percentages are in the mid 50s

Other findings

19 percent of Catholics in the European countries and 30 percent in the Latin American countries surveyed agree with church teaching that divorcees who remarry outside the church should not receive Communion.

​

By Dave’s reasoning it would appear that Catholics are as foolish as Protestants.

 

[PRmerger]

Nice reference but I think you fail to see the irony. While Dave pointed out the foolishness of some Protestants he is quiet as to the foolishness of some Catholics.

Recent polls show that Catholics around the world more liberal than than is ordinarily believed. Surveys in 12 countries with some of the largest Roman Catholic populations around the globe reveal a membership unified in their love of Pope Francis, but in broad disagreement with Catholic doctrine on some key social issues.

From: Univision Poll - poll of more than 12,000 Catholics in 12 countries

78% of Catholics worldwide support contraceptives

30% of Catholics worldwide support SSM

In the US and Europe the percentages are in the mid 50s

Other findings

19 percent of Catholics in the European countries and 30 percent in the Latin American countries surveyed agree with church teaching that divorcees who remarry outside the church should not receive Communion.

​

By Dave’s reasoning it would appear that Catholics are as foolish as Protestants.

Oh, absolutely, frobert. I’m pretty sure that Dave would agree with you. I certainly do.

Thank you for pointing out that it is indeed foolish for a Catholic to support any and all of the above.

 

[PRmerger]

19 percent of Catholics in the European countries and 30 percent in the Latin American countries surveyed agree with church teaching that divorcees who remarry outside the church should not receive Communion

What do you think these Catholics would say (or, if you truly can’t extrapolate to them, I ask you this personally) if I asked them, “So do you think, then, that Jesus was wrong when he said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery?”

Originally posted by St. Mark: He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her;
and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

 

[frobert]

Oh, absolutely, frobert. I’m pretty sure that Dave would agree with you. I certainly do.

Thank you for pointing out that it is indeed foolish for a Catholic to support any and all of the above.

https://imgur.com/jFi4HM3

Nice try at misdirection from what I said and intended. I said

“By Dave’s reasoning it would appear that Catholics are as foolish as Protestants.”

As you are aware from other posts of mine in other threads that your responded to, I am not as cynical and I believe that many non-Catholics use their ability of reason that goes well beyond “picking and choosing” in matters of faith. I would imagine that some Catholics also do.

 

[PRmerger]

Nice try at misdirection from what I said and intended. I said

“By Dave’s reasoning it would appear that Catholics are as foolish as Protestants.”

That changes nothing.

Dave would, I presume, agree and say, “Yep, those Catholics are indeed as foolish as Protestants.”

No doubt about that.

Foolish.

 

[PRmerger]

As you are aware from other posts of mine in other threads that your responded to, I am not as cynical and I believe that many non-Catholics use their ability of reason that goes well beyond “picking and choosing” in matters of faith. I would imagine that some Catholics also do.

So can you give an example, then, of a church doctrine from the UCC that you have conformed to, even if you personally wouldn’t profess if you were, say, king of the world?

 

[frobert]

That changes nothing.

Dave would, I presume, agree and say, “Yep, those Catholics are indeed as foolish as Protestants.”

No doubt about that.

Foolish.

I just wanted to make sure credit was properly attributed.

I rejoice that we are in agreement at last.

 

[PRmerger]

I just wanted to make sure credit was properly attributed.

I rejoice that we are in agreement at last.

As I said, whenever you profess truths that are consonant with Catholicism, I give you a

 

[frobert]

So can you give an example, then, of a church doctrine from the UCC that you have conformed to, even if you personally wouldn’t profess if you were, say, king of the world?

You are trying to compare apples to oranges. The UCC does not wrap the cloak of infallibility around its Synods.

 

[PRmerger]

You are trying to compare apples to oranges. The UCC does not wrap the cloak of infallibility around its Synods.

I never mentioned infallibility, frobert.

I simply asked for you to provide evidence that you do not “pick and choose” doctrines according to what you approve, but rather conform your views to what God has revealed.

Can you provide an example, then, of a church doctrine from the UCC that you have conformed to, even if you personally wouldn’t profess if you were, say, king of the world?

Otherwise, I will have to assume that you are indeed one of those folks who has created a god in one’s own image, rather than conforming your views to what God has revealed.

 

[frobert]

I never mentioned infallibility, frobert.

I simply asked for you to provide evidence that you do not “pick and choose” doctrines according to what you approve, but rather conform your views to what God has revealed.

Can you provide an example, then, of a church doctrine from the UCC that you have conformed to, even if you personally wouldn’t profess if you were, say, king of the world?

Otherwise, I will have to assume that you are indeed one of those folks who has created a god in one’s own image, rather than conforming your views to what God has revealed.

If you don’t want to take my word for it assume what you wish. It would be a waste of my time for me to lay out my reasoning for you to pick apart from your own belief system. In this discussion as in previous discussions you change the goal posts, in previous discussions you abandoned them when you did not hear what you wanted to hear or when they got to the point that you could no longer refute. I think it was Einstein who said that “doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result” is a definition of insanity.

In case you didn’t know we were discussing a Facebook post not matters of my conscience.

 

[PRmerger]

If you don’t want to take my word for it assume what you wish.

What word?

You haven’t given any “word” or any answer.

Is there some particular doctrines that you have conformed to in your church? Yes or no?

As yet, you haven’t given any “word” or response.

 

[frobert]

What word?

You haven’t given any “word” or any answer.

Is there some particular doctrines that you have conformed to in your church? Yes or no?

As yet, you haven’t given any “word” or response.

Let me ask in the most polite way I can think of. Please respect my wish for you to stop goading me.over things that should be quite obvious. If you provide answers to previous posts of mine on other threads that you appear to have abandoned I would not think it insane to answer your questions even though that strayed quite a distance from my original post about Dave’s facebook page.

Let me again remind you that the discussion is about a Facebook post not matters of my conscience. If you wish to discuss Dave’s facebook post keep to the subject of Dave’s facebook page.

 

[PRmerger]

Let me ask in the most polite way I can think of. Please respect my wish for you to stop goading me.over things that should be quite obvious. If you provide answers to previous posts of mine on other threads that you appear to have abandoned I would not think it insane to answer your questions even though that strayed quite a distance from my original post about Dave’s facebook page.

Let me again remind you that the discussion is about a Facebook post not matters of my conscience. If you wish to discuss Dave’s facebook post keep to the subject of Dave’s facebook page.

Well, you can see, then, frobert, how I would assume that you do NOT have a single doctrine to which you can say you’ve conformed.

[SIGN1]Rather, you have created a god that happens to agree with everything you agree with.[/SIGN1]

Now, unless you want to refute my assertion by offering some doctrine to which you have submitted, then, the ONLY LOGICAL conclusion I can make is that you have joined a church that is patterned after everything you personally believe.

I have asked you at least 3 times to offer some sort of example to the contrary.

You cannot or have not.

QED.

Troubling. Very troubling, indeed.

 

[PRmerger]

What do you think these Catholics would say (or, if you truly can’t extrapolate to them, I ask you this personally) if I asked them, “So do you think, then, that Jesus was wrong when he said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery?”

Would you mind answer the above question, frobert?

Do you think Jesus was wrong when he said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery?

"He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her;
and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

 

[SyroMalankara]

Well, you can see, then, frobert, how I would assume that you do NOT have a single doctrine to which you can say you’ve conformed.

[SIGN1]Rather, you have created a god that happens to agree with everything you agree with.[/SIGN1]

Now, unless you want to refute my assertion by offering some doctrine to which you have submitted, then, the ONLY LOGICAL conclusion I can make is that you have joined a church that is patterned after everything you personally believe.

I have asked you at least 3 times to offer some sort of example to the contrary.

You cannot or have not.

QED.

Troubling. Very troubling, indeed.

This is as useful as tying yarn around a charging bull…

From the UCC site:

The UCC has no rigid formulation of doctrine or attachment to creeds or structures. Its overarching creed is love. UCC pastors and teachers are known for their commitment to excellence in theological preparation, interpretation of the scripture and justice advocacy. Even so, love and unity in the midst of our diversity are our greatest assets.

Since there is no doctrine or creed or structure that is binding, how would a UCC answer your question other than attempting to be ‘loving’ even in the most difficult circumstance. Defining ‘loving’ is up to how the individual understands so himself.

 

[PRmerger]

This is as useful as tying yarn around a charging bull…

From the UCC site:

The UCC has no rigid formulation of doctrine or attachment to creeds or structures. Its overarching creed is love. UCC pastors and teachers are known for their commitment to excellence in theological preparation, interpretation of the scripture and justice advocacy. Even so, love and unity in the midst of our diversity are our greatest assets.

Since there is no doctrine or creed or structure that is binding, how would a UCC answer your question other than attempting to be ‘loving’ even in the most difficult circumstance. Defining ‘loving’ is up to how the individual understands so himself.

That proves my point, then. He has joined a church that happens to agree with everything he finds palatable.

God, however, logically, would not happen to agree with all of our own personal tastes, ethics and morals.

Therefore, it is a church of the Almighty Self to which one is joining, rather than the Church of the Almighty if one cannot offer a single doctrine which one has conformed to because…God said it/I believe it.