Unitarian Christians- true or not true?

[frobert]

Would you mind answer the above question, frobert?

Do you think Jesus was wrong when he said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery?

"He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her;
and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

I
Why should I answer your questions? Your inquiry into my consciousness is at a minimum “impolite” What does it matter you, but since you are so insistent I will tell you my conscious is clear. It matters not to me if you believe me or not.

I suggested to you in other posts that if you wish a theological discussion on UCC church teachings you should consult the UCC elders. That you find something that does not coincide with your own beliefs is not my problem nor my responsiblity to agree or disagree with you. Among other many other things that I repeated in other posts, you do not seem to understand that I am NOT out to convert anyone to the UCC.

Am I missing something? What don’t you understand about a polite request to stop goading. For the forth time, the original post we were discussing was a Facebook post not matters of my conscience that are between me and my spiritual adviser.

 

[PRmerger]

I Why should I answer your questions?

To show that you have a well-reasoned, thought-out response.

Right now, it simply appears as if you are saying, “I don’t like it that divorce and re-marriage isn’t permitted in the Catholic Church, so I’m going to join a church that says that it’s ok.”

That’s not well-reasoned or thought-out.

If you can answer why you believe that Jesus is wrong when he said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery, then perhaps I might think of your departure from the Catholic faith as being reasonable.

Right now, however, it looks like you are creating a god that conforms to YOUR wishes.

 

[frobert]

To show that you have a well-reasoned, thought-out response.

Right now, it simply appears as if you are saying, “I don’t like it that divorce and re-marriage isn’t permitted in the Catholic Church, so I’m going to join a church that says that it’s ok.”

That’s not well-reasoned or thought-out.

If you can answer why you believe that Jesus is wrong when he said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery, then perhaps I might think of your departure from the Catholic faith as being reasonable.

Right now, however, it looks like you are creating a god that conforms to YOUR wishes.

When I reasoned out some of your ill thought out notions about beards and incest you appear to have abandoned your own thread. Did you not understand the reference I made to insanity?

You keep changing the goal posts. This thread is not about me and especially not about my consciences. You appear to have personal reasons to make it so.

You keep changing the goal posts. I have said nothing about my views on divorce except to refer to the results from a major poll that had to do with Catholics. If you have problems with Protestant perspectives on divorce reason it reason them out with the respective Protestant theologians.

For the 5th time the original post we were discussing was a Facebook post not matters of my conscience that are between me and my spiritual adviser.

 

[PRmerger]

When I reasoned out some of your ill thought out notions about beards and incest you appear to have abandoned your own thread.

Firstly, I have at least 200 posts in that thread, so to claim that I have “abandoned your own thread” is, frankly, absurd.

Secondly, there is absolutely no imperative that I respond to my “own thread”. None. Zero. Zilch. I am free to come and go on various threads as much as I desire.

Did you not understand the reference I made to insanity?

I do. It’s a nonsequitur, but I understand it nonetheless.

You keep changing the goal posts. This thread is not about me and especially not about my consciences. You appear to have personal reasons to make it so.

You keep changing the goal posts. I have said nothing about my views on divorce except to refer to the results from a major poll that had to do with Catholics. If you have problems with Protestant perspectives on divorce reason it reason them out with the respective Protestant theologians.

For the 5th time the original post we were discussing was a Facebook post not matters of my conscience that are between me and my spiritual adviser.

If you cannot offer a single doctrine to which you have submitted, then I rest my case.

You have a god who never disagrees with your own personal views.

That’s a god that’s been created in one’s own image.

God demands that we follow His Law, not that you command that He follows yours.

Right now you have a god that you’ve created that follows your law.

 

[frobert]

Secondly, there is absolutely no imperative that I respond to my “own thread”. None. Zero. Zilch. I am free to come and go on various threads as much as I desire.

I assume that since it was your own thread and I was answering your questions that you would at least be interested in the answers. Now do you understand my reference to insanity.

But I regress. We should be rejoicing that we agree again.

Why not permit others to have the same privilege that you claim for yourself? I asked politely that you stop goading sever la times but you continue to persist.

 

[frobert]

That proves my point, then. He has joined a church that happens to agree with everything he finds palatable.

God, however, logically, would not happen to agree with all of our own personal tastes, ethics and morals.

Therefore, it is a church of the Almighty Self to which one is joining, rather than the Church of the Almighty if one cannot offer a single doctrine which one has conformed to because…God said it/I believe it.

All that it proves is that you and the UCC perspectives do not coincide.

Are you suggesting you know my conscience?

 

[PRmerger]

All that it proves is that you and the UCC perspectives do not coincide.

Are you suggesting you know my conscience?

I am suggesting that you do not have any way to refute what Jesus said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery, yet you believe that it is perfectly fine to divorce and re-marry.

That is another example of creating a god that you command follows *your *views.

 

[SteveVH]

…if you wish a theological discussion on UCC church teachings you should consult the UCC elders.

I was not aware that the UCC had “church teachings”. Where might one find these?

You understand that this implies that the UCC holds to particular doctrines. In other words, can one disagree with “UCC church teachings” and still remain a member?

Thanks.

Steve

 

[PRmerger]

If you cannot offer a single doctrine to which you have submitted, then I rest my case.

You have a god who never disagrees with your own personal views.

That’s a god that’s been created in one’s own image.

God demands that we follow His Law, not that you command that He follows yours.

Right now you have a god that you’ve created that follows your law.

Reminds me of a quote I saw from one wag regarding some folks who can’t offer a single doctrine to which they have conformed. They seem to be demanding, “Listen, Lord, for your servant is speaking!”

(The real paradigm we should be following is laid out in Scripture here: “Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening!” That is, God reveals. We conform. We don’t find a church that agrees with everything we want and desire.)

 

[cheese_sdc]

I was not aware that the UCC had “church teachings”. Where might one find these?

You understand that this implies that the UCC holds to particular doctrines. In other words, can one disagree with “UCC church teachings” and still remain a member?

Thanks.

Steve

There’s an interesting dynamic at play, and it’s something that I’m just starting to understand. Many churches (not Catholic, of course ) have (while I hesitate to call it a “doctrine”, maybe “tenant”, or even “premise”) called "Freedom of the Pulpit and the Freedom of the Pew.

I know the below sounds weird, heck, I used to be catholic and it still sounds weird to me, but this is the reality of life in these churches. I would wonder if the UCC has a similar tenant.

I took the below from this site:

uuamherst.org/freedom-of-pulpit-a-pew

“The first is called the ‘freedom of the pew’. That is your right as an individual “in the pew” to hold your own religious beliefs.
“Freedom of the pew” does not mean, however, that your beliefs will not be challenged. You can expect a challenge, and a hard one, if your beliefs are discriminatory, hateful or do not affirm the dignity and worth of another individual. You can believe what you want but that does not mean that others will want or accept what you believe. For example, a neo-nazi is not welcome in Unitarian Universalist congregations.”

“The second concept which Unitarian Universalists hold dearly is the** ‘freedom of the pulpit’** or the right of the minister to preach whatever truth he/she holds. This does not mean that those in the “pew” have to believe it. They only have to allow the minister to state his/her case.”

 

[PRmerger]

There’s an interesting dynamic at play, and it’s something that I’m just starting to understand. Many churches (not Catholic, of course ) have (while I hesitate to call it a “doctrine”, maybe “tenant”, or even “premise”) called "Freedom of the Pulpit and the Freedom of the Pew.

I know the below sounds weird, heck, I used to be catholic and it still sounds weird to me, but this is the reality of life in these churches. I would wonder if the UCC has a similar tenant.

I took the below from this site:

uuamherst.org/freedom-of-pulpit-a-pew

“The first is called the ‘freedom of the pew’. That is your right as an individual “in the pew” to hold your own religious beliefs.
“Freedom of the pew” does not mean, however, that your beliefs will not be challenged. You can expect a challenge, and a hard one, if your beliefs are discriminatory, hateful or do not affirm the dignity and worth of another individual. You can believe what you want but that does not mean that others will want or accept what you believe. For example, a neo-nazi is not welcome in Unitarian Universalist congregations.”

“The second concept which Unitarian Universalists hold dearly is the** ‘freedom of the pulpit’** or the right of the minister to preach whatever truth he/she holds. This does not mean that those in the “pew” have to believe it. They only have to allow the minister to state his/her case.”

Is anyone invited to preach at the UU church? Or does someone who preaches have to have an established set of views before he or she will be permitted to preach there?

If so, what are these views?

 

[SteveVH]

The first is called the ‘freedom of the pew’. That is your right as an individual “in the pew” to hold your own religious beliefs.
“Freedom of the pew” does not mean, however, that your beliefs will not be challenged. You can expect a challenge, and a hard one, if your beliefs are discriminatory, hateful or do not affirm the dignity and worth of another individual. You can believe what you want but that does not mean that others will want or accept what you believe. For example, a neo-nazi is not welcome in Unitarian Universalist congregations."

So, the individual in the pew has a right to hold his own religious beliefs. Except if you are a neo-Nazi. What other exceptions are there? Satanists? Westboro Baptists? So there are commonly held beliefs that exclude other’s beliefs. Where does one draw the line and who makes the decision?

The second concept which Unitarian Universalists hold dearly is the** ‘freedom of the pulpit’** or the right of the minister to preach whatever truth he/she holds. This does not mean that those in the “pew” have to believe it. They only have to allow the minister to state his/her case.

So how does one then qualify to be a “minster”? And what is his or her ministry? To get up and spout whatever he or she wishes with no obligation on the part of the congregation to adhere to the principles being espoused? I don’t see the point.

I remember visiting “Speakers Corner” in Hyde Park in London when I was living in Europe. This is where open-air public speaking, debate and discussion are allowed. Everyone and anyone is allowed to get up and rant until the cows come home. I see absolutely no difference between this and a UCC meeting.

 

[frobert]

I was not aware that the UCC had “church teachings”. Where might one find these?

You understand that this implies that the UCC holds to particular doctrines. In other words, can one disagree with “UCC church teachings” and still remain a member?

Thanks.

Steve

As a previous poster pointed, with link, that the UCC does not have rigid doctrines. We have teachings which you can find at the UCC.org website.

Because I like you I will share the United Church of Christ Statement of Faith. Please do not view it as any attempt on my part to convert you.

• We believe in God, the Eternal Spirit, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father, and to his deeds we testify:
• He calls the worlds into being, creates man in his own image and sets before him the ways of life and death.
• He seeks in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and sin.
• He judges men and nations by his righteous will declared through prophets and apostles.
• In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Lord,he has come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to himself.
• He bestows upon us his Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races.
• He calls us into his church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be his servants in the service of men, to proclaim the gospel to all the world and resist the powers of evil, to share in Christ’s baptism and eat at his table, to join him in his passion and victory.
• He promises to all who trust him forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, his presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in his kingdom which has no end.

Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto him.

Amen.

In a like manner you can find the UU teachings at their website. You can also do your own research as to what the they mean.

To my knowledge the UCC perspective is that “Freedom of the Pulpit” is a pastoral right . As far as I know the UCC does not have a “Freedom of the Pew” principle.

 

[SteveVH]

Is anyone invited to preach at the UU church? Or does someone who preaches have to have an established set of views before he or she will be permitted to preach there?

If so, what are these views?

Sorry, PR. I was in the middle of responding and had to take care of something else. I didn’t realize that you had just asked basically the same thing in the meantime.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry, PR. I was in the middle of responding and had to take care of something else. I didn’t realize that you had just asked basically the same thing in the meantime.

Heh.

Great minds, eh?

 

[frobert]

I am suggesting that you do not have any way to refute what Jesus said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery, yet you believe that it is perfectly fine to divorce and re-marry.

That is another example of creating a god that you command follows *your *views.

I am delighted you are not questioning my conscience, at least not in a direct form. But you are changing the goal posts again.

For the third or fourth time you appear to have a problem with UCC teachings which is not my problem or responsibility to address. I suggested several times that you go to the UCC webpage for more information. In case you are shy about going a Protestant webpage try the Wikipedia To make it easy for you I have taken the time to supply a link.

 

[schaeffer]

And neither was I attempting to make jibes or assumptions about anyone’s faith or goodwill.

Is there something in your church, then, to which you can say, “I personally do not believe in [A] (or the corollary: I believe that [A] is perfectly fine). If I were going to create a church I would say that [A] is fine/wrong. But since my church says [A] is fine/wrong, I submit to this church and say [A] is fine/wrong.”

Can you give an example of this, in case I should, in the future, have some assumptions about you that can be proven false now?

No, there is nothing that my faith teaches that I don’t believe. There are things I don’t understand, that’s where faith comes in, but there is nothing I don’t believe.

The question about what I would do if I was creating a church is bizarre. I wouldn’t create a church, I wouldn’t presume I could pull together some rag tag set of ideas and pretend they are reality. A religion is there to inform me and help me address reality, not to help me live some fantasy.

 

[SteveVH]

As a previous poster pointed, with link, that the UCC does not have rigid doctrines. We have teachings which you can find at the UCC.org website.

Because I like you I will share the United Church of Christ Statement of Faith. Please do not view it as any attempt on my part to convert you.

Thanks, I like you as well and answering a question is not considered proselytizing. No worries.

• We believe in God, the Eternal Spirit, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father, and to his deeds we testify:
• He calls the worlds into being, creates man in his own image and sets before him the ways of life and death.
• He seeks in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and sin.
• He judges men and nations by his righteous will declared through prophets and apostles.
• In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Lord,he has come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to himself.
• He bestows upon us his Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races.
• He calls us into his church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be his servants in the service of men, to proclaim the gospel to all the world and resist the powers of evil, to share in Christ’s baptism and eat at his table, to join him in his passion and victory.
• He promises to all who trust him forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, his presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in his kingdom which has no end.

Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto him.

Amen.

So you do have a creed, a set of beliefs to which all UCC members are expected to adhere. This is good news.

To my knowledge the UCC perspective is that “Freedom of the Pulpit” is a pastoral right.

What does that mean? How does one become a pastor? Are they ordained and if so, by who?

Thanks.

 

[frobert]

Thanks, I like you as well and answering a question is not considered proselytizing. No worries.

So you do have a creed, a set of beliefs to which all UCC members are expected to adhere. This is good news.

What does that mean? How does one become a pastor? Are they ordained and if so, by who?

Thanks.

Again all that information is freely available at the UCC website. I suggest the website because one question leads to another that leads to another etc, etc etc. When I am curious about a Catholic teaching and want relevant information I search Catholic Online. Information I get from other posters is sometimes distorted as would be expected.

 

[andrewstx]

Is anyone invited to preach at the UU church? Or does someone who preaches have to have an established set of views before he or she will be permitted to preach there?

If so, what are these views?

Depends on whether a UU congregation is a fellowship or church. The fellowship I visited briefly was too small to have a minister. The members took turns at giving talks. The talks could be on anything the speaker de jour chose, but I never heard a talk about God, or the Christian religion.