Unitarian Christians- true or not true?

[adrift]

Thanks for the story. None of us are w/o faults.

:nope: none of us are w/o fault some of us just act that way Hope you read it and enjoyed it. It is one of my favorites.

 

[schaeffer]

Try and look at it from this point: do you think that there could be a situation where a human creature says, “I believe that it’s not wrong to [fill in the blank]” but God actually believes that it is wrong?

Can you answer the above question? Yes? Or no?

No I can’t answer it. God doesn’t “agree” or “believe” anything. God is.

agreeing and believing are human issues, because humans are limited and fallible, they don’t apply to God.

God is. God is the Truth. The Truth does not have to believe or agree with anything.

Maybe you meant your question in a hypothetical sense, but I feel it would be disrespectful and incorrect to say God believes or agrees with anything.

 

[adrift]

No I can’t answer it. God doesn’t “agree” or “believe” anything. God is.

agreeing and believing are human issues, because humans are limited and fallible, they don’t apply to God.

God is. God is the Truth. The Truth does not have to believe or agree with anything.

Maybe you meant your question in a hypothetical sense, but I feel it would be disrespectful and incorrect to say God believes or agrees with anything.

I think you are splitting hairs.

God says _______ is wrong. You can fill the blank in with most all of God’s commandments.

Human creature says I don’t believe it is wrong.

Do you think that such a situation could occur?

 

[PRmerger]

I think you are splitting hairs.

God says _______ is wrong. You can fill the blank in with most all of God’s commandments.

Human creature says I don’t believe it is wrong.

Do you think that such a situation could occur?

Egg-zactly my sentiments.

I don’t think that there’s going to be an answer forthcoming to our questions.

But I am certain that the point we are making is well understood, even if folks are obfuscating.

We as creatures may think that something is absolutely fine. But God doesn’t think it is absolutely fine.

What do we as creatures do then?

The logical answer is: we humbly submit to what God has said.

If we haven’t done that, and can’t name a single example of when we have done that, then the logical conclusion is: we are creating a false god. One who never says, “This is wrong” to something that we believe is absolutely fine.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Sy, I am still waiting for examples of posts where I claim I don’t believe what a poster has proposed, as far as conforming his views to what Christ has commanded.

Otherwise, it appears you have made a false allegation.

For the last time because I have better things to do with my time than to keep repeating the same examples to you. If you will not listen and you wait for more, so be it. As I have already shown you where posters have told you they don’t understand everything their faith teaches but they nevertheless believe what their faith teaches. So the things they don’t understand they nevertheless conform their beliefs to. Now just because your faith and theirs might disagree on what is commanded, does not mean I haven’t answered. And it’s not false but fact that you continue to question and prod even after they’ve told you they don’t understand all the views of their faith but by faith they still believe in the teachings of their faith. And if you believed what they told you, you wouldn’t keep questioning them.

 

[PRmerger]

For the last time because I have better things to do with my time than to keep repeating the same examples to you

How about if you just give me the link where you gave your personal examples?

And the link where I said I didn’t believe you?

You know, for as much time and energy that you have spent repeating, “I have already shown you”, you could have simply offered links for where you have already done this.

I am asking, of course, for examples of you answering the question for yourself.

I don’t recall your ever doing so.

If you have done so, then I apologize. And all you have to do is offer the link.

For your own posts.

But I am pretty sure you have never answered the question for yourself.

 

[Sy_Noe]

How about if you just give me the link where you gave your personal examples?

And the link where I said I didn’t believe you?

You asked about a poster. But now you’ve switched to me personally? I already told you about me personally too. How about you just go back and read the posts.

 

[schaeffer]

I think you are splitting hairs.

God says _______ is wrong. You can fill the blank in with most all of God’s commandments.

Human creature says I don’t believe it is wrong.

Do you think that such a situation could occur?

You may call this splitting hairs but ironically this IS an example, right here.

In my faith it is NOT splitting hairs, our teaching is that we do not, not even for the sake of discussion, ever assign to God any human traits or in any way misrepresent the glory and “I Am” ness of God.

We don’t. And while it may seem to some people that this is silly and makes no difference, the teaching is it DOES make a difference and that if we fall into this behavior we dishonor the Truth that is God. We must keep it ever present in our mind, thought and speech that God is not like us humans with our foibles etc.

Indeed, for us THAT is our way of saying what you continue to repeat in your “language”…you refer to it as God not believing of agreeing, we refer to it as God being God and therefore never needs to believe, think, or agree with anyone.

And sure, it would be more convenient for the sake of interfaith discussion to just say “it’s not a big deal, just go along, after all I know what he means and I mean.” but the faith say no, we don’t do that, and so I conform not to you, not to what it easy, but to what is true.

 

[PRmerger]

You may call this splitting hairs but ironically this IS an example, right here.

In my faith it is NOT splitting hairs, our teaching is that we do not, not even for the sake of discussion, ever assign to God any human traits or in any way misrepresent the glory and “I Am” ness of God.

We don’t. And while it may seem to some people that this is silly and makes no difference, the teaching is it DOES make a difference and that if we fall into this behavior we dishonor the Truth that is God. We must keep it ever present in our mind, thought and speech that God is not like us humans with our foibles etc.

Indeed, for us THAT is our way of saying what you continue to repeat in your “language”…you refer to it as God not believing of agreeing, we refer to it as God being God and therefore never needs to believe, think, or agree with anyone.

And sure, it would be more convenient for the sake of interfaith discussion to just say “it’s not a big deal, just go along, after all I know what he means and I mean.” but the faith say no, we don’t do that, and so I conform not to you, not to what it easy, but to what is true.

All of the above is a nonsequitur, schaeffer.

And I propose that it’s impossible to have an in-depth discussion about God without assigning him human traits. In fact, you can’t do it yourself. For you have given God a human trait here:

Sometimes I have had to pray for willingness to be willing to abide by God’s will.

Having a “will” is, of course a human trait.

And here:

Many people experience a life review, sometimes including angels or spirits with them evaluating their life, though that is not the same as being judged by God.

“Judging” is, of course a human trait as well.

 

[PRmerger]

You asked about a poster. But now you’ve switched to me personally? I already told you about me personally too. How about you just go back and read the posts.

:banghead:

My patience is, unfortunately, not infinite.

Good luck on your faith journey, Sy.

As you shop for a church that meets your needs, I sure do hope that this conversation here on the CAFs will be somewhere in your psyche.

When you evaluate whether you want to join a church, make sure you’re not looking to see if they teach everything you already believe, especially when it comes to matters below the belt.

Rather, look for the Church, the One Body, that Christ established, and then whatever that Church teaches, you should conform to.

And when you can’t understand the teaching, still understand that it is right, because it is, really, Christ Himself speaking. (“He who hears you, hears Me”–Luke 10:16)

And rather than telling Christ, “You are wrong” you think, like a math problem that your professor, in whom you have great faith, has given the answer, “I’ll try to figure it out until I get the same answer as Christ.”

You can’t quite get to the answer, so you keep searching, reading, studying, discussing, until you come to the correct answer provided for you by your prof.

“Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”. --Cardinal John Henry Newman.

Buh-bye. :sad_bye:

 

[frobert]

:banghead:

My patience is, unfortunately, not infinite.

Good luck on your faith journey, Sy.

As you shop for a church that meets your needs, I sure do hope that this conversation here on the CAFs will be somewhere in your psyche.

When you evaluate whether you want to join a church, make sure you’re not looking to see if they teach everything you already believe, especially when it comes to matters below the belt.

Rather, look for the Church, the One Body, that Christ established, and then whatever that Church teaches, you should conform to.

And when you can’t understand the teaching, still understand that it is right, because it is, really, Christ Himself speaking. (“He who hears you, hears Me”–Luke 10:16)

And rather than telling Christ, “You are wrong” you think, like a math problem that your professor, in whom you have great faith, has given the answer, “I’ll try to figure it out until I get the same answer as Christ.”

You can’t quite get to the answer, so you keep searching, reading, studying, discussing, until you come to the correct answer provided for you by your prof.

“Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”. --Cardinal John Henry Newman.

Buh-bye. :sad_bye:

Sounds like you got burned by the foolishness or your arguments. You have no one to blame but yourself; you were hoisted by your own petard.

I think the problem is that you continue to confuse faith with proof. Faith and belief are not like mathematics, we all have doubts if we didn’t we would not be human.

 

[schaeffer]

All of the above is a nonsequitur, schaeffer.

And I propose that it’s impossible to have an in-depth discussion about God without assigning him human traits. In fact, you can’t do it yourself. For you have given God a human trait here:

Having a “will” is, of course a human trait.

And here:

“Judging” is, of course a human trait as well.

There is clearly nothing I can say, and no example I can give that will satisfy you. The fact that you consider my example from my faith a non sequitor is an indicator to me that there is no point in my further continuing this discussion, as either you do not believe or accept my experience and the teachings of my faith as in any way valid or pertinent to the discussion.

Your proposition is correct it is impossible to have the in depth discussion YOU are seeking to have about God without assigning human traits, which is, again the reason it is pointless for me to continue to try to have such a discussion with you.

Our understandings of God and teachings of our faith are too dissimilar to do so.

 

[PRmerger]

There is clearly nothing I can say, and no example I can give that will satisfy you. The fact that you consider my example from my faith a non sequitor is an indicator to me that there is no point in my further continuing this discussion, as either you do not believe or accept my experience and the teachings of my faith as in any way valid or pertinent to the discussion.

I am not saying your faith is a non-sequitur.

I am saying that your response is a non-sequitur.

 

[PRmerger]

Your proposition is correct it is impossible to have the in depth discussion YOU are seeking to have about God without assigning human traits, which is, again the reason it is pointless for me to continue to try to have such a discussion with you

I am simply pointing out that you don’t abide by your own profession. You say, “We should never give God human traits”, and yet I gave examples (2 of them!) of you giving God human traits.

 

[frobert]

You asked about a poster. But now you’ve switched to me personally? I already told you about me personally too. How about you just go back and read the posts.

We have all told her the same thing. Perhaps she thinks it is just too much work or that she rather have someone else do the work.

 

[schaeffer]

I am not saying your faith is a non-sequitur.

I am saying that your response is a non-sequitur.

you asked for an example, I gave you and example, you said it’s a non sequitur

 

[schaeffer]

I am simply pointing out that you don’t abide by your own profession. You say, “We should never give God human traits”, and yet I gave examples (2 of them!) of you giving God human traits.

You are correct, I did not fully abide by the teaching of my faith in this discussion. Which is why I conceded that I cannot discuss this subject with you further. To discuss with you, requires using your terminology, understanding, experience of God, and that quote you keep returning to.

I cannot discuss, in that manner, and still hold true to the teaching of my faith, and so I bow out.

 

[PRmerger]

You are correct, I did not fully abide by the teaching of my faith in this discussion. Which is why I conceded that I cannot discuss this subject with you further.

And, I will add, you will never be able to dialogue with any depth with ANYONE about God, unless you do not fully abide by the teaching of your faith.

Or, to put it without the double negatives: it is necessary to assign to God human traits whenever we discuss our understanding of God.

At any rate, good luck on your faith journey. Would that you had known the faith that you left, before you went searching elsewhere.

 

[schaeffer]

And, I will add, you will never be able to dialogue with any depth with ANYONE about God, unless you do not fully abide by the teaching of your faith.

Or, to put it without the double negatives: it is necessary to assign to God human traits whenever we discuss our understanding of God.

.

Actually that is not the case. If one understands God as Truth, for example, one is not likely to say things like “Truth believes, Truth agrees, Truth judges”.

If we don’t start at a place where we understand God to have human traits, then we don’t go further down that line of reasoning.

It is a matter of whether of not the people having the discussion are on the same plane as far as their understanding of God. If they are not, or are not able to accept the other person’s understanding as viable for the sake of discussion, then it is not possible.

Since I cannot, even for the sake of this discussion, continue in good conscience to refer to God as having human traits (though I do understand that idea) then I have to bow out. There is nothing at fault in the discussion, I have realized I have no place in it.

 

[adrift]

Since I cannot, even for the sake of this discussion, continue in good conscience to refer to God as having human traits (though I do understand that idea) then I have to bow out. There is nothing at fault in the discussion, I have realized I have no place in it.

Am I correct to assume that you don’t believe Jesus is God?