Unitarian Universalists

[PazzoGrande]

Bryan, I attended a UU church for over a year, while I was an atheist. They are humanists. There is no set of beliefs in the UU church regarding God. No theology. The church I attended was a mix of pagans, Christians, deists and atheists. By far the majority of the group I attended were humanist atheists.

My daughter attended with me at the time, and summed up their principals with “don’t be an inconvenience to my person”. That pegged it pretty well!

In light of Catholicism, the major wrongness is a reliance on humans. As Christians, our reliance is on Jesus Christ. “niceness” is a fruit of the humanist ideology that all the woes of the world can be solved by humans being nice to each other. There is no God in this ideology, at all. If a UU individual has a belief in God, what they believe has to be placed under UU beliefs.

Because of this major difference, moral issues arise for a Catholic. As an example, being pro-life as a UU is fine, as long as your belief in the dignity of all life doesn’t inconvenience someone else.

In this way, they are very pluralistic and individuals can be very syncretic in their beliefs and practices. They have a distinct pagan influence.

I eventually left the group. As an atheist, the humanist ideology was wearing thin for me. Then, I chaperoned a group of UU youth to a regional conference, which was an eye opener. They had instructors their to teach the kids things like, which pronouns are appropriate to use with transgendered persons. (You should ask the person what they prefer.) Of course, this is so people know how to not inconvenience the less than 1% of the population that is transgendered. At the point where a group of pagans at the church I went to performed a faerie blessing…I was done.

Nice people, yes, but I’m hard pressed to call them a religion. That is one of their traits that was attractive to me, I wasn’t interested in religion at the time.

You could press the niceness of the people at your office, by expressing Catholic social belief. Could be fun! I’ve seen plenty of UUs in disagreement, since at this point, someone or everyone are being an inconvenience to the others, either one party has to give in and get over-trodden. Tuck their beliefs in where they can’t be seen, or, leave the group.

If this doesn’t solve the disagreement, they have vote, and the majority rules. So the losing person(s) still only has the option of going along, or leaving.

Personally, I came to see this “system” as totalitarian in nature.

Congressman Pete Stark, noted for being the first member of Congress to publicly come out as an atheist, was also a Uniterian Universalist.

I don’t really get how that works out, perhaps you could enlighten me. UU presumably has some sort of weekly service. What exactly do they do? We praise God, but if one doesn’t believe in God, what is the point of the service?

 

[SteveVH]

I believe I am a 'typical" Friend…there are many Friends who beleive much more closely with your beliefs…we are on a Journey of Discovery…Truth is something one lives more than how one “explains” and “frames” Truth in words…sometimes “words” are insufficient to fully explain and define Truth…our lives are a much better gauge of Truth than our words I think.

And how do we live Truth if we have been misinformed as to what Truth is? I believe in the true presence, body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist and act accordingly. You do not. One of us is wrong. If I am wrong I am guilty of idolatry. If you are wrong you have rejected Christ’s command to eat his body and drink his blood.

There are many very nice people who do not know the truth, Publisher. But Christ did not come to teach us how to be nice people. He came to save us. When we decide to make up our own set of rules becasue they suit us better, rather than submitting to the Truth revealed to us, we stray into dangerous waters.

I will agree completley that if we do not truly live out our faith; put flesh on the words of the Gospel, then it doesn’t really matter what we believe. But we must first have the Truth in order to live it out.

God bless.

 

[Publisher]

And how do we live Truth if we have been misinformed as to what Truth is? I believe in the true presence, body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist and act accordingly. You do not. One of us is wrong. If I am wrong I am guilty of idolatry. If you are wrong you have rejected Christ’s command to eat his body and drink his blood.

Perhaps in your belief system the above is true…I do not believe I necessarily have the best handle on explaining Truth…but I do know how Truth is lived out in our world…I know I experience the Real Presence when I am ministered to by those who seek to share in His Incarnation…in kindness, mercy, service…I do not believe wine and bread become the literal body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ…but I do beleive our beliefs should inform how we live and treat others…the value of our beliefs are evident as they impact our lives in regards how we treat those who wear the face of Jesus in our midst…I may “doubt” a good many things…“Lord I believe, help my undbelief”…but I do know how I am to live in my world…and when I fail…there is astounding grace and mercy.

There are many very nice people who do not know the truth, Publisher. But Christ did not come to teach us how to be nice people. He came to save us. When we decide to make up our own set of rules becasue they suit us better, rather than submitting to the Truth revealed to us, we stray into dangerous waters.

There is a story of One coming out to us “into dangerous waters”…I don’t “decide to make up” my own set of rules…I seek to live as directed by God, thru prayer, study and service. “Submitting to Truth” is more than verbal ascent or recitation of a “creed”. When we submit to Truth, it changes us on the inside…it demands we live in Truth…it calls us beyond ourselves to be caretakers of our world…to seek "justice, show mercy and walk humbly with God’…how that is manifested in our lives is more evident of Truth than the things we may recite and affirm…if they do not change us in our daily conduct and lifestyle.

I will agree completley that if we do not truly live out our faith; put flesh on the words of the Gospel, then it doesn’t really matter what we believe. But we must first have the Truth in order to live it out.

Perhaps we shall never truly know Truth…until we live it out.

God bless.

Peace to you friend.

 

[SteveVH]

Orignially posted by Publisher
“Submitting to Truth” is more than verbal ascent or recitation of a “creed”. When we submit to Truth, it changes us on the inside…it demands we live in Truth…it calls us beyond ourselves to be caretakers of our world…to seek "justice, show mercy and walk humbly with God’…how that is manifested in our lives is more evident of Truth than the things we may recite and affirm…if they do not change us in our daily conduct and lifestyle.

Are you trying to imply that I, or other Catholics believe that submitting to Truth is nothing more than a verbal ascent or reciting a creed? Would you like to compare notes as to the material good that our Church does around the world for the poor and oppresed in comparison to your faith community? And you know nothing of how I live out my personal faith. Sorry, but I find this truly offensive.

 

[Publisher]

Are you trying to imply that I, or other Catholics believe that submitting to Truth is nothing more than a verbal ascent or reciting a creed? Would you like to compare notes as to the material good that our Church does around the world for the poor and oppresed in comparison to your faith community? And you know nothing of how I live out my personal faith. Sorry, but I find this truly offensive.

No, not at all…I’m merely explaining my understanding of “Truth”…not seeking to imply any fault of perception of Truth by you or any others…I have enough difficulty understanding and living Truth for myself, I have enough on my plate than worry what’s on yours friend.

Please, take no offense where none was offered.

 

[codefro]

No, neither is true. This is a logical fallacy.

The “niceness” of a group of people is not in any way related to the truth of their religion, or even what their religion teaches.

I mean, really, do you expect those you do business with to be something other than “nice” to you? This has to do with ettiquette, social savvy, culture, and manners. Not religion.

Don’t confuse the two. QUOTE]

 

[RebeccaJ]

Congressman Pete Stark, noted for being the first member of Congress to publicly come out as an atheist, was also a Uniterian Universalist.

I don’t really get how that works out, perhaps you could enlighten me. UU presumably has some sort of weekly service. What exactly do they do? We praise God, but if one doesn’t believe in God, what is the point of the service?

they have a ceremony where they light a chalice. While the chalice is lit they talk about being equitable to others, in the UU framework (humanist). Sing a song. Sometimes they pray, to a non-descript all encompassing universal power (that you can call God if you like). Ceremony to extinguish the flame in the chalice. Head for coffee. Though, some bring their coffee with them and sip on it through the service.

During the service, they have instruction for the youth in a separate area. A few times a year the youth will lead and plan the entire service.

The UU symbol is the lit chalice.

 

[Lapey]

No, not at all…I’m merely explaining my understanding of “Truth”…not seeking to imply any fault of perception of Truth by you or any others…I have enough difficulty understanding and living Truth for myself, I have enough on my plate than worry what’s on yours friend.

Please, take no offense where none was offered.

Please forgive me for jumping in here, but what is truth? There is no such thing as my truth or your truth…truth is truth. If my understanding of truth is wrong, then its not truth. This relativism is killing our societies, secularism thrives in relativism, and there is where the enemy lurks. He divides and conquers.

Jesus being adopted at the resurrection was a heresy which came into being many centuries ago and has been refuted as such, to bring it back is not to bring “truth” into being, it is reinstating lies. Adoptionalism is as old as the second century, adoption at baptism, then again in the 8th century and the 15th; and probably many more. But I must admit I’ve never heard the “at resurrection” adoption theory.

In my opinion, groups like this, UU, are formed by people who are so smart that they basically replace God’s knowledge and power with their own. This is when we err, we rely on our intelligence which is created by God, and how we know better than Him?

 

[Publisher]

Please forgive me for jumping in here, but what is truth? There is no such thing as my truth or your truth…truth is truth. If my understanding of truth is wrong, then its not truth. This relativism is killing our societies, secularism thrives in relativism, and there is where the enemy lurks. He divides and conquers.

Jesus being adopted at the resurrection was a heresy which came into being many centuries ago and has been refuted as such, to bring it back is not to bring “truth” into being, it is reinstating lies. Adoptionalism is as old as the second century, adoption at baptism, then again in the 8th century and the 15th; and probably many more. But I must admit I’ve never heard the “at resurrection” adoption theory.

In my opinion, groups like this, UU, are formed by people who are so smart that they basically replace God’s knowledge and power with their own. This is when we err, we rely on our intelligence which is created by God, and how we know better than Him?

You are correct Truth is Truth…but our understanding of Truth does differ…the words you use to explain “Truth” may make no sense to me. I must seek Truth and define it through my own experiences.

As I said before…I see no contradiction between the “Christ of Faith” and the “Jesus of history” nor do I believe that just because through the historical developments of belief and doctrine the early Christian community wrestled with somehow “nullifies” those early attempts to explain who this man was they have experienced and heard was…

Just because I may embrace evolution and “big bang” does not mean I do not believe God is the sole Creator of existence…I’m just seeking to understand the “how” He created…just as I can see the doctrinal development Paul and the gospels display as the writings which comprise the NT began being chosen and sorted for inclusion into a bodty of literature that best defined what the early Christian community came to believe about Jesus of Nazareth…and that belief was progressive.

If you wish to believe the expressions of faith and belief your ecclesial community uses embodies the Truth, I understand…but for me…they do not…so I seek expresssions of Truth that I can relate to and embrace.

 

[seeker57]

Congressman Pete Stark, noted for being the first member of Congress to publicly come out as an atheist, was also a Uniterian Universalist.

I don’t really get how that works out, perhaps you could enlighten me. UU presumably has some sort of weekly service. What exactly do they do? We praise God, but if one doesn’t believe in God, what is the point of the service?

To answer the question, we hold services to further our faith. Isn’t that why Christians conduct their services?

We believe everyone has inherent worth and dignity. That means we don’t judge others for their beliefs, though we may not agree with them. It also means we accept everyone as they are.

We are non-creedal, meaning we do not profess faith in any particular deity or belief system. This also means we have no dogma to adhere to and no rituals that must be practiced to belong.

We are covenental, meaning we enter into a covenant to support each other in our search and our congregagtion.

While each week our services differ, at my congregation, each is tied to one of our seven principles, among which are the inherent worth and dignity of all people, the individual search from truth and meaning, etc.

Our members come from many backgrounds, and their individual spirtual paths differ just as broadly.

We believe that our lives are defined by our actions and our work to better ourselves, our community and our world. In other words, it isn’t what we say or profess, but how we live our lives that matters.

While there may be some of us who may believe Jesus was divine in nature, others would tell you they view him as a wise teacher or rabbi, but not divine in nature.

We view the Bible as a good book, but understand there are others.

I personally don’t believe the Bible it is more of a history or chronology put together during a few centures to coalesce the beliefs of the numerous Christian sects that sprang up after the death of Jesus.

Some of us would say aspects of the divine, or God, can be seen or found in all of the worlds religious sects, but that none allows a view of the entire picture.

Along with children’s religious education, there is adult religious education each Sunday. During these sessions, aspects of the various world religions are studied and discussed. At the moment, we are studying the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

We are a unique religion, in that we are syncretic yet not dogmatic. Also, we don’t require conversion to our faith nor denial of other beliefs. In that way, you could be a Christian Unitarian Universalist, or a Wiccan Unitarian Universalist.

Peace,

Seeker

 

[Vouthon]

My dear brother Bscastro

Unitarian Universalism is a fascinating religion but I personally wouldn’t call it a Church. Although it started off as a kind of ultra-liberal form of Protestant Christianity that moved far outwith mainline Protestantism in its rejection of the dogma of the Holy Trinity, it has since evolved into an entirely independent religious movement centered around freedom of conscience and individual belief, that has little to do with Christianity except that some Unitarians still retain a certain connection, however weak, to the mother faith and may nominally identify as Christian.

Theologically speaking Unitarian Universalism is a kind of big tent that permits a great diversity of beliefs. However the entire movement started as a rejection of the Trinity - Unitarian is a word in opposition to Trinitarian, it posits one single Person in the Godhead rather than Three. Other than that UU is very open-ended and is probably the most individualist and dogma-free religion out there.

So while Unitarian Universalism is an attractive and interesting religion, I really would not call it a Church and would not view it in an ecumenical fashion therefore but rather in an interfaith fashion.

A Catholic can respect many things about Unitarian Universalism. Its emphasis upon human freedom is admirable, for example. Its diversity of expression is similar to the diversity of rites within the Catholic Church.

However theologically, from a Catholic perspective, it is flawed from the very origin in its rejection of the Holy Trinity. It is thus theologically incompatible with either Catholicism or Christianity in general, although a Catholic can be sure that the Holy Spirit - at work as he is universally throughout all faiths, cultures and peoples - is inspiring much good within the hearts and minds of Unitarian Universalist people and is helping them to adhere to the seeds of truth that he has seen fit in his Infinite Goodness to plant in their religion.

Also UU is fairly recent. It surfaced in 1961 from the merging of two prior groups: Unitarianism (one Person in Godhead, Jesus just a prophet) and the Universalist Churches (all human beings will be saved regardless of sinfulness in life, influenced very much by Origenism).

Thus in 1961 UU came into being, as in my opinion a separate religion from Christianity, stemming from two ultra-liberal Protestant offshoots that were already far removed from mainstream Christian belief.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Is it me, or does this seem to sum up Unitarian Universalism in a nutshell?

 

[seeker57]

Is it me, or does this seem to sum up Unitarian Universalism in a nutshell?

That was cute, and funny. I don’t know about summing up Unitarian Universalism, but it is certainly could suggest it.

Oh, and thank you Vouthon for the thoughtful response.

Peace,

Seeker.

 

[hma12]

And how do we live Truth if we have been misinformed as to what Truth is? I believe in the true presence, body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist and act accordingly. You do not. One of us is wrong. If I am wrong I am guilty of idolatry. If you are wrong you have rejected Christ’s command to eat his body and drink his blood.

There are many very nice people who do not know the truth, Publisher. But Christ did not come to teach us how to be nice people. He came to save us. When we decide to make up our own set of rules becasue they suit us better, rather than submitting to the Truth revealed to us, we stray into dangerous waters.

I will agree completley that if we do not truly live out our faith; put flesh on the words of the Gospel, then it doesn’t really matter what we believe. But we must first have the Truth in order to live it out.

God bless.

 

[hma12]

I’m new at this so forgive me if I bungle at little. But Amen! Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Hat4]

Just because I may embrace evolution and “big bang” does not mean I do not believe God is the sole Creator of existence…

Just so you know the Catholic Church does not have a problem with evolution. As for the big bang theory you may not know where it originated but it was a Catholic priest, Father Georges Lemaitre.

 

[Rhuarc]

Anything goes in their theology. As you should no in Catholic theology (the TRUE universal theology) anything does not go.

 

[Allen2Saint]

I’m an RC lay chaplain and I make it my business to discuss spirituality with everyone who crosses my path even when not on the job. I’ve met many UU’s. I find them congenial, civil and respectful of people. I met for spiritual supervision with a UU minister who was very kind and smart. Those I know dont believe in God, but are “fine” to be around.

I don’t think that Vatican 2 commented specifically on the UU’s, but I would extrapolate from their attitude about non-Christian religions, which states basically that they venerate any ray of truth that comes from them and enlightens others.

The two drawbacks I have seen are, as has been mentioned, that their own theology, if that’s the proper term, is so vague and open that it does not support them or help define their journey.

Second, I have had two bad encounters on the web with two “media friendly” UU ministers who were Huffington Post contributors, etc. I found their attitude condescending, shallow and incredibly unrealistic as they both had this notion that they knew more about Christianity than Christians did( practically a direct quote) and that they were able to counsel people of various religions about their own religions! I can say from my experience in hospitals that I really had to learn from each and every person what religion was in their heart, even my fellow RC’s,before I could help them. So, it goes without saying I found the UU ministers’ attitudes arrogant and just gross.

But the congregants to be great spiritual neighbors who enjoy a sense of community.