The only way they can be joined with us in the Holy Spirit is if they are not cut off from the mystical body of Christ, the Church. The only way this is possible is if they are outside the Church be reason of invincible ignorance, etc. This document - as you readily admit - does not make that distinction.
So you
really think that the Vatican II Fathers said “in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit” but
meant by that phrase that they are members of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church?
I would very much disagree. I think the Vatican II Fathers actually
said what they meant–that our “link” to these different
groups is via the Holy Spirit precisely
because it really can’t be said that, as a
group, these denominations are part of the Mystical Body of Christ. I think the language was careful and precise…
Further, “sanctifying power” is the power to make holy - to infuse sanctifying grace - which is to say, grant salvation.
The reception of God’s grace may indeed lead to salvation, so long as the person continues to accept the grace given…
The only way this is possible for those outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church is if they are in a state of invincible ignorance, etc. Which again, as you admit, the document leaves out. It is thus, ambiguous. My point made yet again.
Nope. Not your point. Mine–my point is that it’s not
about whether one is to be “saved” through invincible ignorance. Your assertion is similar to me saying that “the US Constitution is
really ambiguous on chemical engineering.”
And that I can “prove” it is by showing that chemical engineering isn’t discussed in the Constitution…
The LG 15 text only claims that all Christians are linked in some way by the grace of God that
does find their way in all denominations. AND that this link is our best hope for restored unity. You disagree with that?
If all Protestants (which is the impression given, as you admit above) are joined with us “in some real way…in the Holy Spirit”, as the document says, then it is discussing salvation (salvation being the purpose of the Church Christ founded of course and the whole point of the Holy Spirit sanctifying through Her).
Absurd. Like saying if we’re discussing the Trinity we
must be discussing the Incarnation as well since they’re connected, and unless we explicitly discuss stuff about the Incarnation, our Trinity conversation will lead people into error! Absolutely silly…
It speaks not only of common truths shared - but in some way in the life in the Holy Spirit…the latter can only be the case of invincible ignorance, etc.
That’s precisely where you are wrong–trying to limit the work of the Holy Spirit
only to members of the Mystical Body of Christ…If God gives all of us sufficient grace for salvation, then the Holy Spirit is CLEARLY at work beyond the “boundaries” of the Mystical Body and the visible Church.
Not mentioning it is ambiguous and can lead many to believe that religion doesn’t matter any more and that paragraph 8 of
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE has been, well, changed.
Not if one actually
reads the text of LG 15 according to what it is trying to assert. What it asserts has nothing to do with the topic of Pius’ text…
I mean after all, if we’re all connected in the same Holy Spirit, then what’s the big deal? See what you’re erroneous conclusions of ambiguous documents can lead to! :tsktsk:
Wagging a finger at me won’t change the truth–you’ve
misinterpreted LG 15 and as result claim it’s being “ambiguous”. The only ambiguity now is whether you will or will not admit the truth…
DJim