United Church of Christ Pastor Blesses Planned Parenthood After It Sells Aborted Babies

[Sy_Noe]

They want to maintain a facade of legality in their words.

Oh my goodness. Will putting the cart before the horse ever cease? Herein lies one of the problems I believe with the side of the opponents of anti-choice and women’s rights and one of the reasons why I and many others in the country have tuned out. It has not at all been proven that PP is doing anything at all illegal. So until if and when it is, it is not a “facade”. If it is believed a crime has been committed, I am sure PP will be charged and even then, such a case would have to be proven in a court of law. Let us not jump to conclusions about a “facade” of legality until if and when it is proven by facts that indeed a crime was committed. Until then it is nothing more than inneundo.

But this back and forth as Compline said, gets nowhere. No one is likely to be moved. I merely thought the United Church of Christ pastor and other clergy who have their faith reasons for supporting PP needed a defense, the other side presented, against the accusers. That was my reason for entering the thread.

 

[Sy_Noe]

No surprise they did this…

I’m okay! You’re okay! We’re all okay! Nobody sins! Everyone goes to heaven no matter what!

My wife attended a UCC congregation before she became Catholic. I went with her to more than a few services and the above statements were what I heard every time I went.

I wonder if since Jesus forgives everything, why be good? He’ll just forgive you, anyway…

Very poor Christian theology by ANY standard. Basically a “feel-good do what you want” community. The pastor (a lapsed Catholic) talked about a woman’s right to choose and the beauty of life just a few weeks later.

I also found them to be very weak in the Scripture department (one reading per week!) for a Protestant community. Maybe if they read more Scripture they would stumble across the “thou shalt not kill” Commandment? That’s in the Protestant Bible, right? In their herculean effort not to judge, there’s no teaching or moral guidance whatsoever. Just a weekly dose of “Jesus loves you”!

I love Jesus. I know He loves me - even when I don’t deserve it. But besides that one point, there is so much more to know! Jesus (and his Apostles) gave us rules to live by. Not much mention of that in the UCC. Pity.

Seriously? UCC believes no one sins? Let’s at least get somewhat real here. I just listened yesterday to a sermon by a UCC pastor who pastors a UCC church about 15 miles from me. And she began by singing “Amazing Grace”. You know the one about a “wretch like me”.

 

[7_Sorrows]

It seems to me quite obvious that the so called “spin” and “deception” surrounding these videos stems completely from the fact the PP employees know they are threading a fine line between what is legal and what is clearly immoral. They want to maintain a facade of legality in their words and demeanor while, at the same time, make what they do lucrative while pretending they are doing an invaluable service to women. It is this very tenuous position they have placed themselves in that should be seen for what it is - put bluntly: an attempt to put lipstick on a pig.

You can wrap an old fish in the Washington Post, but in the end it will still stink.

So true!

 

[rfournier103]

Seriously? UCC believes no one sins? Let’s at least get somewhat real here. I just listened yesterday to a sermon by a UCC pastor who pastors a UCC church about 15 miles from me. And she began by singing “Amazing Grace”. You know the one about a “wretch like me”.

That’s awesome. I’m happy for you. I just never heard sin, or repentance discussed at the congregation that I visited.

PS: I DO know that song.

PPS: What was the sermon about?

Also… How does the UCC square “thou shalt not kill” with “a woman’s right to choose”? Can you PLEASE answer me that?

In the eyes of the law… if ANYONE causes the death of an unborn baby it’s a HOMICIDE. UNLESS that anyone is the mother and a doctor. I’ve always wondered about that too. What do you think?

Thanks

 

[Peter_Plato]

Oh my goodness. Will putting the cart before the horse ever cease?

Cart before the horse?

How do you determine if laws are good and just?

No way of knowing until they become laws, I suppose?

Are laws good and just BECAUSE they are laws or is there a way determining that aside from the fact that they are “in the books?”

The mere fact that they are laws makes them good and just, then?



Let me ponder that while you get on your self-propelled horsecart.

 

[Peter_Plato]

And she began by singing “Amazing Grace”. You know the one about a “wretch like me”.

I suppose that means as long as we see ourselves as wretches and defiantly resolve to remain wretches, that is all that is required to be saved? :bighanky:

 

[benjohnson]

side of the opponents of anti-choice and women’s rights

Nice attempt at framing - but some of us “anti-choice” people love women so much we don’t want to see dead female babies.

 

[Peter_Plato]

In the eyes of the law… if ANYONE causes the death of an unborn baby it’s a HOMICIDE. UNLESS that anyone is the mother and a doctor. I’ve always wondered about that too.

Well, pretty much everywhere except Colorado (and inside the walls of Planned Parenthood.)

A woman recently cut out the unborn child from the womb of an expectant mother. The baby died but the woman was not charged with homicide, just aggravated assault. Lawmakers in Colorado chose not to alter existing laws there despite the outrage.

Which begs the question of which laws in what jurisdiction are the correct ones and how is that determined by Sy Noe? Is there a utopian jurisdiction which somehow supersedes all others or are contradictory laws in different states all equally good and right?

It might be asked of Sy Noe if the laws of the People’s Republic of China or the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea are equally just and good as compared to those of Great Britain or Switzerland?

The Declaration of North Korea that…

The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is a genuine workers’ state in which all the people are completely liberated from exploitation and oppression. The workers, peasants, soldiers and intellectuals are the true masters of their destiny and are in a unique position to defend their interests.

… must be true by the mere fact that it is a legal declaration by the state there, I suppose.

 

[MaryT777]

Nice attempt at framing - but some of us “anti-choice” people love women so much we don’t want to see dead female babies.

This most certainly is true.

Well said.

Mary.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I could smell objection coming to whatever source was posted if the source didn’t exactly fit the agenda or narrative of the anti-choice side and that of the opponents of women’s legal reproductive rights.

But don’t worry. I know these will be rejected as well. As you said, “I doubt there will be anything that will change minds on either side”. And as we said, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree.

For all the discussion, Sy Noe, I am going to agree that there will never be accord on this issue. That is fine. I am not here to argue sides.

But for those who don’t think that churches can be faithful and true to the Gospel and still have members who are pro-choice AND supportive of Planned Parenthood, I beg to inform you that you are mistaken. Happily it is very much a reality. Most denominations, such as UCC, don’t have official political positions on such matters however. But it is likely that pro-choice people will attend parishes that are supportive. That being said, I know dozens of Catholics who are pro-choice and attend Mass regularly.

 

[7_Sorrows]

For all the discussion, Sy Noe, I am going to agree that there will never be accord on this issue. That is fine. I am not here to argue sides.

But for those who don’t think that churches can be faithful and true to the Gospel and still have members who are pro-choice AND supportive of Planned Parenthood, I beg to inform you that you are mistaken. Happily it is very much a reality. Most denominations, such as UCC, don’t have official political positions on such matters however. But it is likely that pro-choice people will attend parishes that are supportive. That being said, I know dozens of Catholics who are pro-choice and attend Mass regularly.

Sadly your last statement is true.

 

[esieffe]

There is not even a spec of a reason any church, or for that matter any religion, could possibly find to support an abortion factory.There is simply no Biblical basis in which a pastor could muster support for such a thing. I don’t understand it at all.

 

[Jeanne_S]

There is not even a spec of a reason any church, or for that matter any religion, could possibly find to support an abortion factory.There is simply no Biblical basis in which a pastor could muster support for such a thing. I don’t understand it at all.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

There is not even a spec of a reason any church, or for that matter any religion, could possibly find to support an abortion factory.There is simply no Biblical basis in which a pastor could muster support for such a thing. I don’t understand it at all.

I know and very much appreciate that you do not understand this reality. I wish I could explain it, but I don’t understand how to explain. Perhaps the crux of the matter is that I (and others) believe that a living human being starts at birth, not at conception. That is why birth certificates are issued and legal personhood begins. We do not baptize until after birth. We do not allow rights in our social structure until after birth. That is why we do not condemn to jail women who have miscarriages or stillbirths. That is why we, unlike some countries, allow abortions to be legal. Judaism says life begins with breath. I agree.

That is our bottom line disagreement I believe. I will not debate. I just wanted to respond to your honest reflection.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I know and very much appreciate that you do not understand this reality. I wish I could explain it, but I don’t understand how to explain. Perhaps the crux of the matter is that I (and others) believe that a living human being starts at birth, not at conception. That is why birth certificates are issued and legal personhood begins. We do not baptize until after birth. We do not allow rights in our social structure until after birth. That is why we do not condemn to jail women who have miscarriages or stillbirths. That is why we, unlike some countries, allow abortions to be legal. Judaism says life begins with breath. I agree.

That is our bottom line disagreement I believe. I will not debate. I just wanted to respond to your honest reflection.

What?We don’t jail women who have stillbirths or miscarriages.What a ludicrous statement.In fact everything in your post is ludicous.
This is my honest reflection.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

We don’t jail women who have stillbirths or miscarriages.What a ludicrous statement.I

There are Catholic countries who do, of course. I was referring to the US, where we believe that it is not murder to end a pregnancy.

latimes.com/world/great-reads/la-fg-c1-el-salvador-women-20150415-story.html

 

[7_Sorrows]

What?We don’t jail women who have stillbirths or miscarriages.What a ludicrous statement.In fact everything in your post is ludicous.
This is my honest reflection.

I agree. It was nonsense.

 

[Jeanne_S]

There are Catholic countries who do, of course. I was referring to the US, where we believe that it is not murder to end a pregnancy.

latimes.com/world/great-reads/la-fg-c1-el-salvador-women-20150415-story.html

There are Catholic countries that will throw a woman in jail due to a miscarriage or stillbirth?Care to mention which countries do this?

 

[Sy_Noe]

That’s awesome. I’m happy for you. I just never heard sin, or repentance discussed at the congregation that I visited.

PS: I DO know that song.

PPS: What was the sermon about?

Also… How does the UCC square “thou shalt not kill” with “a woman’s right to choose”? Can you PLEASE answer me that?

In the eyes of the law… if ANYONE causes the death of an unborn baby it’s a HOMICIDE. UNLESS that anyone is the mother and a doctor. I’ve always wondered about that too. What do you think?

Thanks

Hi. I understand. UCC congregations can and do vary. The sermon was a previous Fathers Day sermon about being fathers, with Biblical references.

Now before I go any further, at this point I just want to say that I agree with ComplineSanFran and see no reason to turn this into a prolonged debate about the different sides regarding the question of legalized abortion. Because I can’t believe we haven’t already heard the positions of each side. And neither of us is likely to change our beliefs. And I am not a UCC member so without myself doing further research specifically into their particular reasoning, I won’t speak for them. I urge you however if you are truly interested in the UCC perspective or any other non Catholic faith for that matter, to visit their websites. Many faiths have extensive sites full of information about their beliefs or perhaps try contacting their clergy. I’ve done both frequently across a wide range of faiths for answers to questions I had about certain faiths.

But since I do respect your questions, I will just conclude very briefly giving a quick reply, touching only briefly with just a few points. But again don’t expect me to parlay this into a prolonged abortion debate or to go back and forth. I respect your views on it and only ask that I am given the same respect even though we undoubtedly disagree. And will just have to respectfully agree to disagree as I have found there are no winners in these sorts of debates.

So anyway as I previously already explained, there are many religious and theological perspectives as to when life and personhood begin. And it is not killing a person if one’s religious and theological perspective is that the embryo or fetus has not yet arrived to the point of having personhood rights. And in a pluralistic society, Christians such as myself who are pro choice believe politicians must not be allowed to impose law on this based on a particular belief. The Bible does not specifically mention abortion. Pro choice Christians do not wish to impose our religious views onto everyone. No one is forced to procure an abortion. And just to take a couple of Scripture passages. Gen 2:7 refers to the creation of Adam from the earth. It says nothing about contraception, pregnancy or birth. And in Exodus 21:22-23, when men were quarreling and a woman was struck and she miscarried, the man was fined. If the fetus had been considered a full person, the punishment would have been more severe.

So anyway I purposely am keeping my answers brief about this because again, I see no point in a long debate that will get us no where, and am perfectly aware those who hold your views have your arguments as well. Your side can even have the last word. Something tells me someone will want it.

But isn’t that what makes religious faith and theology such an interesting topic. There are many perspectives! Blessings!

 

[rfournier103]

Hi. I understand. UCC congregations can and do vary. The sermon was a previous Fathers Day sermon about being fathers, with Biblical references.

Now before I go any further, at this point I just want to say that I agree with ComplineSanFran and see no reason to turn this into a prolonged debate about the different sides regarding the question of legalized abortion. Because I can’t believe we haven’t already heard the positions of each side. And neither of us is likely to change our beliefs. And I am not a UCC member so without myself doing further research specifically into their particular reasoning, I won’t speak for them. I urge you however if you are truly interested in the UCC perspective or any other non Catholic faith for that matter, to visit their websites. Many faiths have extensive sites full of information about their beliefs or perhaps try contacting their clergy. I’ve done both frequently across a wide range of faiths for answers to questions I had about certain faiths.

But since I do respect your questions, I will just conclude very briefly giving a quick reply, touching only briefly with just a few points. But again don’t expect me to parlay this into a prolonged abortion debate or to go back and forth. I respect your views on it and only ask that I am given the same respect even though we undoubtedly disagree. And will just have to respectfully agree to disagree as I have found there are no winners in these sorts of debates.

So anyway as I previously already explained, there are many religious and theological perspectives as to when life and personhood begin. And it is not killing a person if one’s religious and theological perspective is that the embryo or fetus has not yet arrived to the point of having personhood rights. And in a pluralistic society, Christians such as myself who are pro choice believe politicians must not be allowed to impose law on this based on a particular belief. The Bible does not specifically mention abortion. Pro choice Christians do not wish to impose our religious views onto everyone. No one is forced to procure an abortion. And just to take a couple of Scripture passages. Gen 2:7 refers to the creation of Adam from the earth. It says nothing about contraception, pregnancy or birth. And in Exodus 21:22-23, when men were quarreling and a woman was struck and she miscarried, the man was fined. If the fetus had been considered a full person, the punishment would have been more severe.

So anyway I purposely am keeping my answers brief about this because again, I see no point in a long debate that will get us no where, and am perfectly aware those who hold your views have your arguments as well. Your side can even have the last word. Something tells me someone will want it.

But isn’t that what makes religious faith and theology such an interesting topic. There are many perspectives! Blessings!

1. Not really interested in buying much of what the UCC is selling.
2. We strenuously disagree. It happens
3. There may be many “perspectives” on when life begins, but I am certain that there IS a scientific cut and dried answer - regardless of peoples opinions. We can’t all be right.
4. Politicians have a DUTY to protect EVERYONE. Is it wrong if their religious beliefs force them to take that duty seriously?
5. Interesting Biblical quotes. However, for better or worse; the Church has been tasked by God to interpret Sacred Scripture and “feed and tend Christ’s sheep and lambs” (John 21:15-18). The Church is quite clear on this issue, and therefore you are correct - there is no changing the minds of those here.