United Church of Christ Pastor Blesses Planned Parenthood After It Sells Aborted Babies

[Bob_Crowley]

Of course the Catholic faithful might label the United Church of Christ or other branches of the Christian faith as false prophets. But I doubt they would agree.

No false prophet thinks he’s a false prophet.

 

[JustaServant]

I know and very much appreciate that you do not understand this reality. I wish I could explain it, but I don’t understand how to explain. Perhaps the crux of the matter is that I (and others) believe that a living human being starts at birth, not at conception. That is why birth certificates are issued and legal personhood begins. We do not baptize until after birth. We do not allow rights in our social structure until after birth. That is why we do not condemn to jail women who have miscarriages or stillbirths. That is why we, unlike some countries, allow abortions to be legal. Judaism says life begins with breath. I agree.

That is our bottom line disagreement I believe. I will not debate. I just wanted to respond to your honest reflection.

How do you harvest organs from something that is not a “living human being?”

 

[7_Sorrows]

Hi. I understand. UCC congregations can and do vary. The sermon was a previous Fathers Day sermon about being fathers, with Biblical references.

Now before I go any further, at this point I just want to say that I agree with ComplineSanFran and see no reason to turn this into a prolonged debate about the different sides regarding the question of legalized abortion. Because I can’t believe we haven’t already heard the positions of each side. And neither of us is likely to change our beliefs. And I am not a UCC member so without myself doing further research specifically into their particular reasoning, I won’t speak for them. I urge you however if you are truly interested in the UCC perspective or any other non Catholic faith for that matter, to visit their websites. Many faiths have extensive sites full of information about their beliefs or perhaps try contacting their clergy. I’ve done both frequently across a wide range of faiths for answers to questions I had about certain faiths.

But since I do respect your questions, I will just conclude very briefly giving a quick reply, touching only briefly with just a few points. But again don’t expect me to parlay this into a prolonged abortion debate or to go back and forth. I respect your views on it and only ask that I am given the same respect even though we undoubtedly disagree. And will just have to respectfully agree to disagree as I have found there are no winners in these sorts of debates.

So anyway as I previously already explained, there are many religious and theological perspectives as to when life and personhood begin. And it is not killing a person if one’s religious and theological perspective is that the embryo or fetus has not yet arrived to the point of having personhood rights. And in a pluralistic society, Christians such as myself who are pro choice believe politicians must not be allowed to impose law on this based on a particular belief. The Bible does not specifically mention abortion. Pro choice Christians do not wish to impose our religious views onto everyone. No one is forced to procure an abortion. And just to take a couple of Scripture passages. Gen 2:7 refers to the creation of Adam from the earth. It says nothing about contraception, pregnancy or birth. And in Exodus 21:22-23, when men were quarreling and a woman was struck and she miscarried, the man was fined. If the fetus had been considered a full person, the punishment would have been more severe.

So anyway I purposely am keeping my answers brief about this because again, I see no point in a long debate that will get us no where, and am perfectly aware those who hold your views have your arguments as well. Your side can even have the last word. Something tells me someone will want it.

But isn’t that what makes religious faith and theology such an interesting topic. There are many perspectives! Blessings!

For those of us who have had the joy of being pregnant and have gone through the changes from conception to birth and felt our body change and felt the baby grow and move and kick and even have the hiccupd we know that life does not begin at birth. the doctor listens for a heartbeat at every check up. you sound like a reasonably intelligent person so I find it shocking that you continue to use such ridiculous arguments.

 

[Jeanne_S]

For those of us who have had the joy of being pregnant and have gone through the changes from conception to birth and felt our body change and felt the baby grow and move and kick and even have the hiccupd we know that life does not begin at birth. the doctor listens for a heartbeat at every check up. you sound like a reasonably intelligent person so I find it shocking that you continue to use such ridiculous arguments.

 

[Sy_Noe]

1. Not really interested in buying much of what the UCC is selling.

No one said anyone has to buy anything. But you’re the one who asked a question about UCC. All I did then was direct you to sources if you were truly interested in knowing their answer to your question.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Your side can even have the last word. Something tells me someone will want it.

So what happened with regard to giving up “the last word?”

No one said anyone has to buy anything. But you’re the one who asked a question about UCC. All I did then was direct you to sources if you were truly interested in knowing their answer to your question.

Something told me YOU really did want it.

Perhaps you shouldn’t offer what you can’t give :blackeye:

 

[Sy_Noe]

For those of us who have had the joy of being pregnant and have gone through the changes from conception to birth and felt our body change and felt the baby grow and move and kick and even have the hiccupd we know that life does not begin at birth. the doctor listens for a heartbeat at every check up. you sound like a reasonably intelligent person so I find it shocking that you continue to use such ridiculous arguments.

Just responding since you directed a post towards me. Thank you for the compliment. I think ComplineSanFran already explained in post #52 better than I ever could though the difference some people see between life and a living human being person with personhood rights. No one expects faithful Catholics to see it in the same way though or as Compline has stated there ever being accord on this issue among Christians. Not on this earth anyway or until in our faiths Jesus comes again. Peace.

 

[Peter_Plato]

No one expects faithful Catholics to see it in the same way though or as Compline has stated there ever being accord on this issue among Christians. Not on this earth anyway or until in our faiths Jesus comes again. Peace.

I suppose God does expect faithful Catholics to see it the “same way,” but has reminded us in various ways that strife will exist even among those striving to be Holy.

From the Didache, the teaching of the Twelve Apostles…

And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.

…

For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead – yet not of all, but as it is said: “The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him.” Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

I would take the above VERY seriously.

 

[estesbob]

As with so many other denominations they so concerned about acquiescing to the current culture that they actually believe the only real sin is believing there is sin .

 

[sarah_j]

Sorry for not posting links to the reports of doctored films.

thinkprogress.org/health/2015/08/20/3693340/planned-parenthood-video-photos/

The “doctored” film accusation concerns the Center for Medical Progress using
the picture of a 19 wk. stillborn baby to illustrate the size of the aborted baby
being discussed in the video. The picture of the baby in the video was obviously
not a picture of the aborted baby, because the baby in the photo was in one piece.
(@ minute 9 in the youtube).
CMP has now identified the name of the baby shown in the youtube video, as you can
see here. The baby’s name was Walter Fretz :

[youtube.com/watch?v=FzMAycMMXp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzMAycMMXp8)

Planned Parenthood would have served themselves better by keeping
their mouths shut about the supposed “deception”… The photo of the baby came
from a blog the mother wrote in memory of her stillborn baby and this is what she
has to say about the picture being used in Daleidon’s video. Apparently she
had been contacted by Planned Parenthood and urged to sue Daleidon for
using the baby’s picture without permission. >

“Yes, the photo at the end of the newest video about Planned Parenthood is Walter,” declares Fretz. "No, they did not ask for permission to use the photo and YES that is illegal. No, I am not going to do anything about it. It is not the first time that Walter’s photo’s have been used without my / our knowledge.

“We are placing our family and Walter in the hands of the Lord. I can spend countless hours worrying about this and scouring the internet or I can trust that in all things, God will protect us and His plan is perfect!,” Fretz added.

Fretz originally published the images of her son on her own blog in June of 2013.
“I wish that this hadn’t happened, but it did for a reason,” wrote Fretz.** “Maybe that reason was to share with the world how perfect a baby which is legal to abort in many states really is,**” she added.

christianpost.com/news/baby-in-undercover-anti-abortion-video-was-stillborn-not-aborted-producer-says-143582/#6cmvMttQUHLItpuz.99

 

[Michael1978]

I have been with my wife at each of her OBGYN appointments for both of our children. I have seen and heard the little heartbeat of both of my babies from 8 weeks on. I watched every few weeks as they grew and developed. My children were human babies from the moment of conception. I have shed literal tears reading the stories and seeing the videos of these precious children being torn limb from limb. The inhumanity and utter depravity of it all is shocking to the soul. Any person who can stand in a pulpit on Sundays and claim to be a minister of the gospel of Christ and support this organization is doing the work of the father of lies.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I have been with my wife at each of her OBGYN appointments for both of our children. I have seen and heard the little heartbeat of both of my babies from 8 weeks on. I watched every few weeks as they grew and developed. My children were human babies from the moment of conception. I have shed literal tears reading the stories and seeing the videos of these precious children being torn limb from limb. The inhumanity and utter depravity of it all is shocking to the soul. Any person who can stand in a pulpit on Sundays and claim to be a minister of the gospel of Christ and support this organization is doing the work of the father of lies.

I agree 100%!

 

[MarkInOregon]

Just responding since you directed a post towards me. Thank you for the compliment. I think ComplineSanFran already explained in post #52 better than I ever could though the difference some people see between life and a living human being person with personhood rights. No one expects faithful Catholics to see it in the same way though or as Compline has stated there ever being accord on this issue among Christians. Not on this earth anyway or until in our faiths Jesus comes again. Peace.

So our unalienable right to “life” extends only to what you refer to as persons–and personhood for you is achieved only at birth? This all seems very arbitrary does it not? Is there really much difference between a born baby and that same baby in the womb the day before–yet you would argue it’s o.k. to abort that baby because it has not yet been born–and as such has not acquired a right to life–is that your position? What do you acknowledge a fetus to be? Is it a life? Is it human? Is it living? Is it a living human? If it is not what is it? Can it develop into anything other than what you consider a “living human being person”? Does that have any implications for you? Just seeking to understand your position. I can see no real difference between the child on the day of it’s birth that you would protect and the child the day before it’s birth which you would apparently allow to be aborted because it has no human personhood rights. Do you really see a difference other than place of residence?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

I know and very much appreciate that you do not understand this reality. I wish I could explain it, but I don’t understand how to explain. Perhaps the crux of the matter is that I (and others) believe that a living human being starts at birth, not at conception. That is why birth certificates are issued and legal personhood begins. We do not baptize until after birth. We do not allow rights in our social structure until after birth. That is why we do not condemn to jail women who have miscarriages or stillbirths. That is why we, unlike some countries, allow abortions to be legal. Judaism says life begins with breath. I agree.

That is our bottom line disagreement I believe. I will not debate. I just wanted to respond to your honest reflection.

We don’t condemn women to jail who have miscarriages or stillbirths because they occur naturally through no fault of the women. The women in the case of miscarriage or stillbirth have suffered a loss and trauma–not intentionally inflicted harm on their unborn.

So you really see a difference between the born child on the day of it’s birth and that same child they day before in it’s mothers womb? You see enough difference in them to say the one deserves protection and that anyone should have the right to kill the other one? That until birth - no rights or protections should attach – even though these two babies are basically identical? Not looking to debate but to understand your position.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[ComplineSanFran]

We don’t condemn women to jail who have miscarriages or stillbirths because they occur naturally through no fault of the women. The women in the case of miscarriage or stillbirth have suffered a loss and trauma–not intentionally inflicted harm on their unborn.

Mark

Some Catholic countries do condemn women to jail for miscarriages and stillbirths. I would assume they are not accused of murder, but rather manslaughter. Regardless, it is the natural extension of claiming that a zygote/embryo/fetus has the same legal rights as a person who has been born – that the mother is responsible for any termination of a pregnancy. If you are going to say that life begins at conception, and that the embryo/fetus trumps the mother, then you have to hold the mother accountable for all terminations, which is what the countries that incarcerate women do.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Some Catholic countries do condemn women to jail for miscarriages and stillbirths. I would assume they are not accused of murder, but rather manslaughter.

You seem to be asking us to assume a whole lot here.

Which “Catholic” countries condemn women to jail for miscarriages and stillbirths?

Where is the data that proves your claim?

It is one thing to spout such claims, a whole other thing to demonstrate them.

You are on…

…we’ll “proof” your nuggets when we see them.

:hammering:

 

[ComplineSanFran]

You seem to be asking us to assume a whole lot here.

Which “Catholic” countries condemn women to jail for miscarriages and stillbirths?

Where is the data that proves your claim?

It is one thing to spout such claims, a whole other thing to demonstrate them.

You are on…

…we’ll “proof” your nuggets when we see them.

:hammering:

Sorry, I should have posted some links. El Salvador and Nicaragua are two countries where women’s rights groups work to help those women who are imprisoned for miscarriages and stillbirths. In the past, Chile and Mexico also were places where women were criminalized. I believe that things have improved, but as you can see El Salvadore has a current case that is making news. It is horrendous. And if any state here in the US passes a personhood law, it would follow that women would also be criminalized when a pregnancy is terminated, either voluntarily or non-voluntarily.

latimes.com/world/great-reads/la-fg-c1-el-salvador-women-20150415-story.html

feminismandreligion.com/2011/10/06/criminalizing-miscarriages-latin-america’s-zero-tolerance-policy-on-abortion-by-michele-stopera-freyhauf/

 

[Peter_Plato]

Sorry, I should have posted some links. El Salvador and Nicaragua are two countries where women’s rights groups work to help those women who are imprisoned for miscarriages and stillbirths. In the past, Chile and Mexico also were places where women were criminalized. I believe that things have improved, but as you can see El Salvadore has a current case that is making news. It is horrendous. And if any state here in the US passes a personhood law, it would follow that women would also be criminalized when a pregnancy is terminated, either voluntarily or non-voluntarily.

latimes.com/world/great-reads/la-fg-c1-el-salvador-women-20150415-story.html

feminismandreligion.com/2011/10/06/criminalizing-miscarriages-latin-america’s-zero-tolerance-policy-on-abortion-by-michele-stopera-freyhauf/

I actually read those before you posted them.

What the women were imprisoned for was the suspicion of self-induced abortion, not a miscarriage or stillbirth per se. So making a statement such as the one you have seeks to minimize THAT fact and falsely connect the Catholic Church to non-existent laws which purportedly jail women for merely having a miscarriage or stillbirth (which isn’t the case.)

Now the question as to whether the women were imprisoned justifiably or not is a whole other question, as is whether they were imprisoned as a result of Catholic beliefs or influence, or not.

The current government of El Salvador is leftist and has been almost the entire time Guadalupe (the woman in the article) has been imprisoned. An Amnesty International article on the case ignores that fact completely.

The LA Times article concocts a confused web of intrigue trying to link the Nicaraguan government policies with the Church. Seems a very convenient but rather shoddy means of discrediting Catholicism by the secular media. The Nicaraguan law is also related to self-induced abortion, not miscarriages or stillbirths. Also, writing the one-sided article, is a convenient means of attempting to overthrow abortion laws in vulnerable countries by linking these laws with obvious cases of injustice, as if abortion laws are, in themselves unjust.

Just so you know, there are many states in the United States – Indiana, Georgia, Utah, Mississippi, among others – that have laws making self-induced abortion illegal. The question is how to address the question of women who choose to kill their own babies in the womb. You aren’t claiming this is a morally acceptable thing to do, are you?

Now whether countries like El Salvador or Nicaragua are addressing the problem properly and justly (and whether states in the United States are) is a serious question and not an easy one to solve. Well, at least not if you have any moral concern for babies in the womb.

 

[Peter_Plato]

And if any state here in the US passes a personhood law, it would follow that women would also be criminalized when a pregnancy is terminated, either voluntarily or non-voluntarily.

This statement is pure nonsense and an obvious use of scare tactics. No it doesn’t OBVIOUSLY follow that women would be criminalized WHENEVER a pregnancy is terminated “either voluntarily or non-voluntarily.”

You need to sketch out how that would follow.

Your due diligence is now due!

 

[cmodrmac]

I fully believe that the President should immediately defund planned parenthood and arrest all the individuals that participate in the mutilation of dead bodies-surely there are federal and state statutes that relate to this-it would at least shock the nation and hopefully lead to an attempt to a constitutional amendment regarding abortion ( so at least the people would get a vote on this issue)

with this said contraception should be available to all