United Methodist w/ Catholic Question

[nlmsnyder]

Hi,

I am a mid-life, female, mechanical engineer in my second year of seminary for a Master’s of Divinty in Clinical Pastoral Counseling. Due to seminary issues, the UM church may not accept my seminary for ordination in their church which means I would be researching other denominations to see where I fit theologically and doctrinally. I should know more in about a month.

Meanwhile, I work with Catholics that are returning to the faith and we share a lot of commonality as far as our desiring deeper intimacy with Christ, a life filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and exhibiting the fruits of that life, and the need to reach out to help others in a world full of hurting people.

I have always found beauty in worship services of both Catholic and Orthodox churches, along with other Protestant churches. I don’t have any ecumenical prejudices that I am aware of. God is many places - not just in my church and not just in any other.

I started seminary knowing I was called to seminary but not to what field. The degree I am pursuing can lead, in the Protestant world, to parish ministry, chaplaincy or pastoral counseling.

As simply a curiosity at this point, is there anywhere in the Catholic church where I could be in His service full-time using the degree I am currently pursuing? Ordination is out but that’s not limiting for me. Not being able to help others in His name and for His glory would be limiting for me.

Blessings to all and may we all seek greater understanding of our Lord’s heart.

Nancy

 

[awalt]

Hello and welcome!

There are many roles for women in the Church today. Almost every vocation outside of ordination has women doing a great job. This includes things like Director of Religious Education, Evangelization positions, Diocesan management positions, and a relatively new (last 10 years?) position of Pastoral Life Director, which is basically a lay person acting as pastor of a parish except for sacrament s requiring a priest. Priests still celebrate Mass and sacraments, PLDs run the rest of the parish. We have one working at an adjoining parish that has done a fantastic job turning around a parish that was struggling.

There is probably someone in the vocations area of your local Catholic diocese that could talk to you about paths to follow. I would also like to suggest that you read the late Pope John Paul’s encyclical ON THE DIGNITY AND VOCATION OF WOMEN, it is really very beautiful and worth the read IMHO.

Good luck in your discernment!

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,

I am a mid-life, female, mechanical engineer in my second year of seminary for a Master’s of Divinty in Clinical Pastoral Counseling. Due to seminary issues, the UM church may not accept my seminary for ordination in their church which means I would be researching other denominations to see where I fit theologically and doctrinally. I should know more in about a month.

I’m Catholic, and I love being Catholic, and I would recommend it to absolutely anyone - but I have what may seem like a really dumb question for you:

How does not being accepted for ordination in your denomination, mean that you have to seek out a different denomination? What is precluding you from continuing to be a faithful lay member of that community, and using your M.Div. in a lay role?

And one more really dumb-sounding question for you:

Would you continue to discern whether you are called by God to become a Catholic, if the UMC did accept you for Ordination?

Meanwhile, I work with Catholics that are returning to the faith and we share a lot of commonality as far as our desiring deeper intimacy with Christ, a life filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and exhibiting the fruits of that life, and the need to reach out to help others in a world full of hurting people.

The Catholic Church certainly excels in all of these areas, to be sure.

I have always found beauty in worship services of both Catholic and Orthodox churches, along with other Protestant churches. I don’t have any ecumenical prejudices that I am aware of. God is many places - not just in my church and not just in any other.

You sound like a very kind, open-minded person.

I started seminary knowing I was called to seminary but not to what field. The degree I am pursuing can lead, in the Protestant world, to parish ministry, chaplaincy or pastoral counseling.

God orders all things to the good, and no good work is ever wasted. I’m sure you will find profitable ways to use your education to build up His Kingdom, no matter what happens.

As simply a curiosity at this point, is there anywhere in the Catholic church where I could be in His service full-time using the degree I am currently pursuing?

There are all kinds of opportunities, as outlined in the post above. We have a centuries-long tradition of women in teaching, communications, and other helping professions through women’s orders, but since Vatican II, many of these opportunities have also been opened up to married and single women in the world, as well.

Ordination is out but that’s not limiting for me. Not being able to help others in His name and for His glory would be limiting for me.

All Catholics are called to this, and there is no shortage of work to be done.

Blessings to all and may we all seek greater understanding of our Lord’s heart.

Amen to that.

 

[BrianH]

Hi,

I am a mid-life, female, mechanical engineer in my second year of seminary for a Master’s of Divinty in Clinical Pastoral Counseling. Due to seminary issues, the UM church may not accept my seminary for ordination in their church which means I would be researching other denominations to see where I fit theologically and doctrinally. I should know more in about a month.

 

[jmcrae]

You might need more than a month to solve that issue

I missed that.

To the OP: It normally takes about two years or so to become Catholic, and then there is the Neophyte Year when you are just getting used to living the Catholic life, before they will hire you or let you be a volunteer in any kind of teaching ministry - that’s really important for you to know ahead of time.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I missed that.

To the OP: It normally takes about two years or so to become Catholic…

It took me nine months and that was the standard RCIA program at my parish and in my diocese. Some people take longer but I haven’t heard the 2+ years figure before. Maybe something is wrong in my diocese?

 

[jmcrae]

It took me nine months and that was the standard RCIA program at my parish and in my diocese. Some people take longer but I haven’t heard the 2+ years figure before. Maybe something is wrong in my diocese?

The Pope is now calling for “year round RCIA” in four distinct Periods, and typically it takes about two years to complete (Period of Inquiry as long as it takes - usually about 4 months, but can be anywhere from two weeks to 30 years -, a minimum of one full calendar year of Catechesis, 6 weeks of Purification, and 7 weeks of Mystagogia), instead of the 9-month locked-step program.

This is actually how the Rite was originally written, but for whatever reason, it somehow got abbreviated into a college-style school year. The Pope is just asking us to bring it back to how it was originally intended.

 

[RNRobert]

I started RCIA in December 1995, and was received into the Church in Easter of 1996. I believe the abbreviated program for me was because I was considered well read and fairly knowledgeable about the faith.

 

[jmcrae]

I started RCIA in December 1995, and was received into the Church in Easter of 1996. I believe the abbreviated program for me was because I was considered well read and fairly knowledgeable about the faith.

I did a combo-pak of RCIA and private instruction that took about three months from January to April of 2001, but I had been living as if I were a Catholic (though not receiving the Sacraments) for about ten years prior to that (from August of 1991), and previous to that, I had flunked out of RCIA twice, in 1985 and then again in 1986 (for being a trouble-maker, and for lack of attendance at Sunday Mass - for some reason that I no longer remember, I had a heck of a time getting it through my head that I had to go to Mass on Sundays, even though I wasn’t receiving the Sacraments, yet - somehow I thought that not receiving the Sacraments meant that I wasn’t supposed to go at all - but aside from that, I was having trouble with a lot of other things, too, and making a nuisance of myself in class - ultimately, Father just told me I wasn’t ready to become Catholic, yet - looking back, he was actually quite astoundingly patient with me, all things considered).

 

[BrianH]

Hi,

Meanwhile, I work with Catholics that are returning to the faith and we share a lot of commonality as far as our desiring deeper intimacy with Christ, a life filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and exhibiting the fruits of that life, and the need to reach out to help others in a world full of hurting people.

I have always found beauty in worship services of both Catholic and Orthodox churches, along with other Protestant churches. I don’t have any ecumenical prejudices that I am aware of. God is many places - not just in my church and not just in any other.

Nancy

Catholics believe they are the true church and there is no salvation outside of it. It isnt about beauty, it is about changing a great many of your Methodist beliefs.

To use Caesars material:
Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church”.

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved” .

 

[nlmsnyder]

Hi,

Thank you all for some excellent thoughts and helpful suggestions.

To answer questions:

1. How does not being accepted for ordination in your denomination, mean that you have to seek out a different denomination? What is precluding you from continuing to be a faithful lay member of that community, and using your M.Div. in a lay role?

To move into any position I mentioned in my church, you usually need the endorsement of your denomination and, often, ordination within that denomination.

1. Would you continue to discern whether you are called by God to become a Catholic, if the UMC did accept you for Ordination?

I am uncertain. I will go wherever God leads. It’s just that clarity at this level is not always gifted. I have been talking to a Catholic friend about taking the RCIA for the knowledge of the Catholic Church with the understanding that I might not end up Catholic.

My thought was that if I ended up in a ministry field where I was in a position to comfort someone who was or is Catholic, I would better be able to understand their spiritual needs and, thus, better able to counsel/comfort.

1. Did you go to a seminary not approved by the University Senate?

My seminary is approved by the UM University Senate but is not a UM seminary. New rulings just taking place require my seminary to now work in conjunction with a nearby (except for commuters) UM seminary. This joint venture will require some of the classes be taken at the UM seminary campus. That means instead of a 5 hour commute round trip, it would be a 7.5 hour commute round trip. I work full time and they let me work 4-10 hour days to make the commute on the 5ht day. I can’t do the extended commute. If they grandfather us in, those who are already in the process, then we will be fine.

Again, thanks to all of you for your enlightening conversation, questions, and helpful guidance.

Blessings to all,

Nancy

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,

Thank you all for some excellent thoughts and helpful suggestions.

To answer questions:

1. How does not being accepted for ordination in your denomination, mean that you have to seek out a different denomination? What is precluding you from continuing to be a faithful lay member of that community, and using your M.Div. in a lay role?

To move into any position I mentioned in my church, you usually need the endorsement of your denomination and, often, ordination within that denomination.

Oh, I see. Was your Discernment Committee aware at the time that they approved your studies that you might be forced right out of your ecclesial community, if you were not accepted for Ordination?

I’m just curious - I was on a committee for discernment for Ordination in my previous life, and I’m sure I would have wanted to know about something like that. (Fortunately, our candidate was accepted, and it was never an issue - but at the time, I had been under the impression that we would have been able to place her in a lay role, and make use of her gifts and recently acquired knowledge in some other way, if she had not been accepted.)

1. Would you continue to discern whether you are called by God to become a Catholic, if the UMC did accept you for Ordination?

I am uncertain. I will go wherever God leads. It’s just that clarity at this level is not always gifted. I have been talking to a Catholic friend about taking the RCIA for the knowledge of the Catholic Church with the understanding that I might not end up Catholic.

That’s actually a good idea - in fact, many people in RCIA don’t go on to become Catholic, so you wouldn’t be at all unusual in that regard.

My thought was that if I ended up in a ministry field where I was in a position to comfort someone who was or is Catholic, I would better be able to understand their spiritual needs and, thus, better able to counsel/comfort.

Typically, they would want you to call a priest, I should think. But you would have a much better understanding of why that is, and be less likely to feel offended by that.

 

[Contarini]

The Pope is now calling for “year round RCIA” in four distinct Periods, and typically it takes about two years to complete (Period of Inquiry as long as it takes - usually about 4 months, but can be anywhere from two weeks to 30 years -, a minimum of one full calendar year of Catechesis, 6 weeks of Purification, and 7 weeks of Mystagogia), instead of the 9-month locked-step program.

This is actually how the Rite was originally written, but for whatever reason, it somehow got abbreviated into a college-style school year. The Pope is just asking us to bring it back to how it was originally intended.

But unless the Pope has changed things (I haven’t seen what you are talking about), RCIA in its full form is not supposed to apply to Christians seeking full communion with the Catholic Church (it is supposed to be adapted for that purpose, and great latitude is left as to how this is done). I would presume that the call for a fuller program applies only to catechumens, but I’m open to evidence to the contrary.

My own experience in RCIA was that the unbaptized resented being treated in any way differently from the baptized, and this is probably one reason why baptized and catechized Christians are made to go through the full program, while the program itself is abbreviated from what it is supposed to be (for new converts to Christianity).

Of course, in the U.S. a relatively tiny number of converts to Catholicism are unbaptized people with no prior catechesis–the people for whom the program was designed.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Catholics believe they are the true church and there is no salvation outside of it. It isnt about beauty, it is about changing a great many of your Methodist beliefs.

Brian,

Why are you quoting Caesar when you know he does not represent the current Catholic position?

Edwin

 

[jmcrae]

But unless the Pope has changed things (I haven’t seen what you are talking about), RCIA in its full form is not supposed to apply to Christians seeking full communion with the Catholic Church (it is supposed to be adapted for that purpose, and great latitude is left as to how this is done). I would presume that the call for a fuller program applies only to catechumens, but I’m open to evidence to the contrary.

It’s supposed to be flexible, and adaptable to the individual needs of the participants. A good book on the subject is Year-Round Catechesis, by Mary Burmingham. She goes into the history, development, and current expectations of the RCIA process as implemented since Vatican II.

Of course, the documents themselves (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) are also good reading, if you have the time and inclination.

My own experience in RCIA was that the unbaptized resented being treated in any way differently from the baptized, and this is probably one reason why baptized and catechized Christians are made to go through the full program, while the program itself is abbreviated from what it is supposed to be (for new converts to Christianity).

That may have been a pastoral decision that came from your pastor or else from your Bishop, but the Rite itself insists on distinguishing between the baptized and the unbaptized.

Of course, in the U.S. a relatively tiny number of converts to Catholicism are unbaptized people with no prior catechesis–the people for whom the program was designed.

Edwin

My experience is that, when we were doing the locked-step 6-9 month RCIA at my parish, we got mostly baptized people from other denominations, and maybe occasionally a few unbaptized people.

Now that we are purposefully moving toward the model described in Mary Burmingham’s book, we are seeing it shift the opposite way - we are getting a whole lot more unbaptized, uncatechized people, while still getting the same number of people from other denominations.

But the drop-out rate is also way higher - although I’m wondering if they are now dropping out before Initiation, instead of after, since although we have brought hundreds of people into the Church through the old-style RCIA over the years, our parish population isn’t actually increasing, and the number of deaths and moves each year don’t account for the difference.

So, it’s possible that this method is simply weeding out the “flash in the pan” types before they get to the Sacraments (and make promises they can’t keep) - and in that case, it’s probably a good thing, since the stamina required to make it through our current RCIA process is the same kind of stamina that it takes to live an authentic Catholic lifestyle.

It’s also not that we’re “tough” in any sense of the word - we do give the participants every benefit of the doubt, and continue to invite them back. It’s just that the process itself is very, very demanding - as is living the Catholic life.

 

[BrianH]

Brian,

Why are you quoting Caesar when you know he does not represent the current Catholic position?

Edwin

Because I am not convinced that he does not Edwin. While Vatican II certainly seems to be a start, is it binding(infallible) like previous statements?
BH

 

[jmcrae]

Because I am not convinced that he does not Edwin. While Vatican II certainly seems to be a start, is it binding(infallible) like previous statements?
BH

Vatican II was just as much an Ecumenical Council of the Church as Trent, or Ephesus, or any other.

That having been said, although you stated it rather bluntly, your statement was not actually false. We have a somewhat different understanding of the Church than we did before, but it is still true that outside the Church, there is no salvation.

It is also certainly very true that becoming a Catholic involves many changes in lifestyle, thinking habits, and core assumptions, for the majority of people.

 

[BrianH]

Vatican II was just as much an Ecumenical Council of the Church as Trent, or Ephesus, or any other.

I thought I had heard otherwise. Good to know. Thank you.

 

[jmcrae]

I thought I had heard otherwise. Good to know. Thank you.

If you have the time and the inclination, it’s a profitable exercise to read through the actual documents of the Council themselves, rather than rely on third-hand interpretations.

A good translation is The Documents of Vatican II edited by Walter M. Abbott, S. J., and Very Rev. Msgr. Joseph Gallagher. I’m not sure whether it’s still in print, but you can probably pick it up used, or borrow it from a Catholic church library - I see it around all the time.

 

[mikew262]

Brian,

Why are you quoting Caesar when you know he does not represent the current Catholic position?

Edwin

You were reading my mind.