United States Citizenship

[bobzills]

consider the act of paying taxes into a general fund (meaning the taxpayer has no direct say in how the tax dollars are spent). from this general fund, congress votes funds for biological warfare research as well as famine relief in Africa. is paying taxes an objectively immoral act?

since you no doubt believe that weaponizing plague is immoral (please correct me if I’m wrong), your clear duty is to refuse to pay taxes. how could you possibly square your conscience otherwise?

it always warms my heart to see people like you stand behind their deeply held convictions. there’s sooo much pretentious and, dare I say, hypocritical, gassing in the world.

Another good reason to avoid American citizenship is given in the above post. As you can read above, Americans who oppose the immorality of abortion or biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons are accused of being pretentious, hypocritical and gas bags.

 

[Wirraway]

Another good reason to avoid American citizenship is given in the above post. As you can read above, Americans who oppose the immorality of abortion or biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons are accused of being pretentious, hypocritical and gas bags.

let me ask you again. you’ve stated that actions are objectively and factually moral or immoral. and yet you pay taxes (an action) into a general fund used for a variety of things, among which are many you’ve declared immoral. you probably also vote, which is a decision to participate in a representative democracy in which you grant to your elected leaders the power to make decisions which you declare immoral. (actually, your presence here is an implied consent to this, but voting takes it beyond the realm of anything implicit)

why do you continue to voluntarily participate in immoral acts? how is that not a sin? why do you not simply refuse to file? why do you vote?

I just can’t get my mind around this kind of thinking. you condemn as immoral some government spending but participate in the process (e.g., paying taxes). you condemn as immoral defense expenditures but enjoy the benefits (e.g., nuclear weapons, the use of which ended one war and the presence of which has ensured peace for over 60 years). handwringing is not a balm to the conscience.

this isn’t the City of God by any stretch of anyone’s imagination, and, sure, you could renounce citizenship or LPR status, but until Christ returns, where on earth do you expect to find a place where you’re not obligated in some measure to render unto Ceasar?

 

[Al_Masetti]

As a non-american here I got used to some ignorant comments on the CAF but this one is a winner.

Which part do you object to?

• the uniqueness of opposition to abortion?

or

• American Exceptionalism?

 

[bobzills]

let me ask you again. you’ve stated that actions are objectively and factually moral or immoral. and yet you pay taxes (an action) into a general fund used for a variety of things, among which are many you’ve declared immoral. you probably also vote, which is a decision to participate in a representative democracy in which you grant to your elected leaders the power to make decisions which you declare immoral. (actually, your presence here is an implied consent to this, but voting takes it beyond the realm of anything implicit)

why do you continue to voluntarily participate in immoral acts? how is that not a sin? why do you not simply refuse to file? why do you vote?

I just can’t get my mind around this kind of thinking. you condemn as immoral some government spending but participate in the process (e.g., paying taxes). you condemn as immoral defense expenditures but enjoy the benefits (e.g., nuclear weapons, the use of which ended one war and the presence of which has ensured peace for over 60 years). handwringing is not a balm to the conscience.

this isn’t the City of God by any stretch of anyone’s imagination, and, sure, you could renounce citizenship or LPR status, but until Christ returns, where on earth do you expect to find a place where you’re not obligated in some measure to render unto Ceasar?

It is difficult to be at peace and attain enlightened goals in the USA as Americans are obliged to contribute taxes to all kinds of immoral activities, as you have mentioned, such as abortion, the killing of the unborn child, the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction, such as the atomic, nuclear, chemical and biological weapons which if used, cannout help but injure and kill millions of innocent children and civilians. This is why many people are refusing to sign up for American citizenship. These are people who desiire harmony and the promotion of good will and mutual understanding among peoples throughout the world, and who want to be at peace with their conscience.

 

[ecp007]

Well, What does that mean? …

So, is the American someone who loves America (or Americans) than other people? If that’s the case, then I guess, I am not an American.

Maybe this is trite. My father came from Cuba. He said he knew he needed to become a citizen when he was watching the Olympics, and an American was running against a Cuban, and he was cheering for the American to win.

 

[kesa82]

If I had a free choice, I would squat in Liechtenstein until I starved, was killed, or was excepted. I’m a convinced monarchist. So why don’t I do that then? I have parents and siblings HERE.
Do I owe them nothing? Whats that buisiness about " honoure thy father and mother " ?

Hmmm, would the Vatican take me in? There is the only other temporal state I have any emotional regard for.

btw, four of my direct ancestors went down fighting for the C.S.A.
It seems to me that gives me a blood claim to the land irrespective of state alliegance. If all you americans wish to de-camp, I really wouldn’t mind.

 

[Wirraway]

…This is why many people are refusing to sign up for American citizenship. These are people who desiire harmony and the promotion of good will and mutual understanding among peoples throughout the world, and who want to be at peace with their conscience.

and who, apart from the OP, is refusing to “sign up” for american citizenship? and why aren’t there more of them? the country is being swarmed by illegal immigrants, as well as legal ones. not only that, other poster claims, in the immigration threads, that these are Catholics?

as with them, and as with you, actions speak louder than words.

 

[Wirraway]

If I had a free choice,

but you do have a free choice. this is a free country. no one will stop or even discourage you from leaving. in this thread I posted a link demonstrating how to renounce your american citizenship. I believe a man ought to stick by his convictions.

I would squat in Liechtenstein until I starved, was killed, or was excepted.

here ya go.migration.li/dokumente/englisch.pdf

I’m a convinced monarchist. So why don’t I do that then? I have parents and siblings HERE.
Do I owe them nothing? Whats that buisiness about " honoure thy father and mother " ?

don’t you have anyone to cleave to?

Hmmm, would the Vatican take me in? There is the only other temporal state I have any emotional regard for.

probably not. there are fewer than 600 citizens, including the Pope, cardinals, other clergy and employees, including the swiss guard. citizenship is employment based, according to the wikipedia article, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City .

I do find this interesting, that the Vatican is restrictive on its own citizenship while encouraging illegal immigration elsewhere.

btw, four of my direct ancestors went down fighting for the C.S.A.

they should have picked the winning side.

It seems to me that gives me a blood claim to the land irrespective of state alliegance. If all you americans wish to de-camp, I really wouldn’t mind.

I don’t know what a “blood claim to the land” means. Its not in the constitution, US Code or any of the administrative rules. that’s a different perspective on citizenship, I admit.

 

[Wirraway]

Another good reason to avoid American citizenship is given in the above post. As you can read above, Americans who oppose the immorality of abortion or biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons are accused of being pretentious, hypocritical and gas bags.

and why would that be a good reason to “avoid” citizenship? because someone disagrees with you politically?

 

[RCM]

Wirraway"and who, apart from the OP, is refusing to “sign up” for american citizenship? and why aren’t there more of them? the country is being swarmed by illegal immigrants, as well as legal ones. not only that, other poster claims, in the immigration threads, that these are Catholics?
as with them, and as with you, actions speak louder than words."

Actually America is NOT the only country swarming with undocumented people. The rest of the developed world is dealing with it as well. Costa Rica, Canada, Western Europe, China (especially on the North Korean border) to name only a few.

The ? for the OP is which developed country BEST represents her beliefs? It is a fair question.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I do find this interesting, that the Vatican is restrictive on its own citizenship while encouraging illegal immigration elsewhere.

The Vatican might require you to become a Catholic priest to live in Vatican City. The US just askes that you come here legally and swear an oath to uphold our laws to be a citizen.

The Vatican respects the sovereignty of other nations while pettioning a respect to all humans despite legality. If you were hungry the Vatican will feed you, much like many in the US would. The difference is being hungry is not a valid reason for gaining citizenship in either the US or Vatican City.

 

[Wirraway]

The Vatican might require you to become a Catholic priest to live in Vatican City. The US just askes that you come here legally and swear an oath to uphold our laws to be a citizen.

The Vatican respects the sovereignty of other nations while pettioning a respect to all humans despite legality. If you were hungry the Vatican will feed you, much like many in the US would. The difference is being hungry is not a valid reason for gaining citizenship in either the US or Vatican City.

I was pointing out that citizenship in the Vatican is limited, and that a poster who was musing about becoming a resident was likely to be disappointed if he or she is not the Pope, a cardinal, a member of the administration or a swiss guard.

the US asks that nonimmigrants and people on the road to LPR and citizenship obey the laws of the land and stay within status, immigration law is very generous when it comes to offering haven to refugees and victims of certain offenses.

 

[kesa82]

here ya go.migration.li/dokumente/englisch.pdf

Thank you very much for the cite! When/if my parents die - I take care of them, they are near invalids. Also, they never gave me leave to go. While it may be common practice in the US to leave/disobey your parents, I believe, absolutely, for my own part, that to obey your parents is rule number one. That is logically consistent for a monarchist, no ? - this info may come in handy, assuming that, by that time, I’m not hooked up to an oxygen tank myself. I agree absolutely that one should act in accordance with ones beliefs - save when ones church, king, or family says no.

don’t you have anyone to cleave to?

No, and I’m not gay or otherwise deviant. I’m very poor. ( Well, actually we have a 70 acre farm, but it is actually quite common for farmers to be, " land rich, but cash/credit poor " . ) So I’m not at all attractive to college girls. I’m not really very smart, rather dull actually, but my education is sufficient such that when I start talking - I can clearly see it in their faces - to girls from the trailer park I might as well be speaking to them in Latin. So culturally I’m not attractive to blue collar girls. I’m 40, and the idea of marrying only to become caretaker to ANOTHER FATHERS children ( a ship cannot have two captains - one of the basic reasons why the modern intrusive state is wrecking the family btw. ) does not appeal. So I would be obliged to " rob the cradle" to get a wife. Finally, any prospective wife would have to bow to the circumstance that I am not master of my own house, and neither would she be, and while my parents are quite admirably benevolent and just, they tend to be “control freaks”. ( no less than americans in general I find. ) While , as I understand it, such circumstance may be common and is taken for granted in the middle east and other places, to americans it is alien and is a very hard pill to swallow.
So, no, I’m not married. Believe it or not you get used to celibacy, it becomes a habit, eventually you even come to depend on it. And then it becomes actually very hard to give up, even if temptation presents itself.

I do find this interesting, that the Vatican is restrictive on its own citizenship while encouraging illegal immigration elsewhere.

I have found it rather interesting myself. I was being sarcastic. As you probubly percieved.

I don’t know what a “blood claim to the land” means. Its not in the constitution, US Code or any of the administrative rules. that’s a different perspective on citizenship, I admit.

You really don’t know what a blood claim is I would have thought any reasonably bright ten year old would have discovered the concept in the due course of everyday reflection. It’s only a concept about as old as mankind. My ancestors in Scotland , for example, had no legal, paper claim to the land , not from the King of Scotland, or from the king of England, or from the king of Norway. They killed and were killed for it ; that was their claim. This , of course, did not prevent the Countess of Sutherland from clearing them off with a piece of paper - just as " my daddy fought in world war II " wouldn’t prevent the US government from siezing your land and giving it to Wal - Mart. Oh well.

Now, back to the topic …

 

[Wirraway]

…
You really don’t know what a blood claim is I would have thought any reasonably bright ten year old would have discovered the concept in the due course of everyday reflection. …

I have no idea what you’re talking about and have no idea of what you think reasonably bright ten year olds believe. As a reasonably bright attorney, I can assure you that the phrase means nothing, your property rights are no better than anyone else’s. As a reasonably bright retired naval officer, it still means nothing.

 

[kesa82]

I have no idea what you’re talking about and have no idea of what you think reasonably bright ten year olds believe. As a reasonably bright attorney, I can assure you that the phrase means nothing, your property rights are no better than anyone else’s. As a reasonably bright retired naval officer, it still means nothing.

uh huh. sure. If you say so.
We are supposed to be charitable here, so I cannot say more.

 

[kesa82]

I assure you, sir, this "temporal and accidental identity" was bought and paid for at a very high cost.  Memorial Day is next month, I suggest you spare a few minutes to think about that.

IKing. .

in other words, a blood claim?

clarification ?

I’m not bright, but I’m not stupid either.

 

[kesa82]

btw, I HAVE had a gun stuck in my face because I stood on principle. And nobody paid me to do it. And I had no prospect that I would EVER be rewarded for it.

So what ? It did not, in fact, cost me my life. Fair enough. I look forward to heaven. Come and credit me.

I’m not going to bother to give you my full biography. You don’t care anyway. But if you doubt me, and it really is important to you, pm me for street address and come and get it. I will answer ANY question as fully as I can.

 

[neat62]

But more importantly, **I guess, I want to know what is an American? **I guess, I should know what it all means

Well…since you asked…here’s what I think:

***“Americanism means the virtues of courage, honor, justice, truth, sincerity, and hardwork-- the virtues that made America.” ***-- Teddy Roosevelt

I could probably go on and on about what I believe the characteristics of being “an American” truly are, but Teddy summed it up pretty darn well with that quote above. So instead, I am going to share with you, simply, why I am proud to call myself American.

As most of us, I learned my values, ideals, beliefs and thoughts from those who raised me…my parents. My parents were both born and raised in the Bronx, NY…yes, I said “THE” Bronx, as anyone hailing from New York will understand. My father grew up an only child, while my mother grew up as the third child in a family of four. Both came from what some would call, “less” than middle class homes. However, both were taught the value of working hard to better one self…they were taught simply, to “dream.”

Back in the day…local and community events basically revolved around the “churches and temples” in the area. As such, my parents actually met at a Jewish temple. Mom was going to try out for the all girls community basketball team and my father, happened to be one of the assistant coaches. Both had attended the same Catholic grade school and had “known” of each other but had not ever met. Anyway, they began courting, and continued to do so for the remainder of their high school days.

Shortly after enlisting in the US Navy, pop asked Mom to marry…she did of course and their days of sharing a lifetime of dreams and goals began. They dreamt of owning their own home one day; they would be the first in both families to do so. They dreamt of having many children fill their home; they had six of us. They dreamt of one day leaving New York, traveling to the West Coast and making a new home in California; they arrived here in 1962. They dreamt of providing more opportunities for their children, they dreamt of giving their children all that they could; they did so, never complaining or whining about the many sacrifices they would have to make in the process.

The sacrifices came in many ways, but probably the biggest came from Pop’s 30 years of service in the US Navy. Pop was a veteran of both the Korean War and the Vietnam War and during the years between 1962 through 1974 Pop went on seven, seven-month cruises to the Gulf of Tonkin. Of course, that meant he had to leave Mom and us kids behind, missing out on many of the moments that most families seem to take for granted these days. Such as the birth of a child, their first steps, first day at school, first homerun, etc, etc. Mom, however, was a trooper, never complained, never worried and never fretted, all the while, explaining thoroughly where Pop was and why he was serving his country.

When Pop was home though…the joy and memories my parents gave to us will never be forgotten. A few memories are listed below, but there are so many more.

Unfortunately…I can’t post my whole “piece” here…but you can read further here, if you are interested:

What it means to be an American

 

[Wirraway]

Hi Guys,

I am hoping you guys are willing and able to help me thinking through this issue. I have lived in the United States most of my life, and I am eligile to become a citizen. And I feel like I should so I can do things like vote. But the truth is I don’t know if I feel like an American citizen. It seems like the culture is moving in a direction that is so not Christian. When I watch television, I just don’t see myself. Plus, I am very uncomfortable with all the talk about national sovereignty and all that. I realize this will offend, but I don’t understand why patriotism is such a great virtue. In fact, I am inclined to tink that it causes a great deal of harm. I don’t partiularly care if my socks are made in illinois or el salvador.

But I also don’t care if they are made in Haiti either, which is where I was born. I know it’s cliche, but I really do just want to be a human being without a national title. This does not mean that I want a one world government. I would rather live in a small catholic commune, prefereally somewhere I can avoid social security taxes. Which brings me to the only identity I feel intensely, I am a catholic.

Does anyone out there sympathize?

six months later …

did the OP leave the US? decline citizenship?

 

[tmkpk]

If you don’t feel like an American in your heart, then it is dishonest to become a citizen of the USA because you won’t have the USA’s best interests in your decisions; however, you can be a friend of the USA and still stay in the USA as a legal resident in the same way thousands of American citizens do in other countries as expatriates, missionaries, and US gov’t and US military personnel and their families. Thank you for being honest and thank you for being a friend of the USA; however, if you don’t want to be American and don’t totally believe in the country, then don’t apply for naturalization.

As for identifying oneself as Catholic or Christian, I would hope our religion would be one of our important indentities. Christians, who are from areas of the world where they are in the minority, are often referred to as a separate group as if an ethnic or racial group. Some people state that their most important culture is Catholic or Christian, which allows them to let go of other facets of themselves and embrace others on this one dimension of Christianity and/or Catholicism.